The Dunatian

The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.4.x - 1.5.x [re-booted]

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5 hours ago, dvader said:

One question though, are spreadsheets allowed?

dvader,

 Absolutely. Bonus cave cred since you wrote them yourself. Using mods in another install to develop launchers, OTOH, is strictly forbidden.

5 hours ago, dvader said:

Perhaps an anecdote: It takes a LOT more time to set up a comnet without orbital period. I eyeballed a quarter of a circle and set the Ap and Pe to exactly 504000/505000m. Setting the orbit was tedious but the worst part was moving the orbits after separation by just touching the satellite.

 

If you know your Ap and Pe, you can calculate your orbital period :D

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm

Best,
-Slashy

Edited by GoSlash27

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Good. KSP is probably the only game I know where a big part of the fun is using a spreadsheet for planning, understanding and perfecting. I haven't added orbital period (yet) because I don't want to spoil the fun of deriving it myself by looking it up in a textbook... It's like being told the answer to a good riddle...

What about biome maps though? I'm currently flying around Minmus trying to resist the temptation of just looking at a map. Any opinions?

Btw: Nice Dodgeball reference! Great movie.

 

Edited by dvader
Dodgeball!
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Hey there.

 

Done, donety, Dun.

BAT3Gwp.png

I have played in normal mode. Ordinary game, lots of testing at the launch pad and splashed. Nothing much to brag about.

The only real CAVEMAN things were sending Bob to do an EVA report from space while ridding up externally.

R1Tr8gAl.png

The other was to send a science probe to orbit the Mun.

rlSklewl.png

 

Here is how and anybody can do it. 

Album: https://imgur.com/a/5qKxg

 


 

Spoiler

 

I was getting tired of taking small contracts and accepted to test a hardpoint on a suborbital trajectory.

It had no altitude specified so I decided to go straight up and realized.......I have a probe core and Jeb desn't have to go.

No Jeb means more fuel. When first built I adjusted my stages by retracting fuel from a tank. Suddenly I can go full fuel.

After my test the probe escaped Kerbin.

 

So... If the probe can escape I can get science from orbiting the Sun... I could attempt a Mun flyby... Maybe brake enough to stay in the SOI...

Now when I go to the Mun (Or Minmus) I pull the prograde toward the Mun, wich makes the orbit 90° to the Mun. people suggest 60° but 90° is easier to gauge for me.

 

The Mun is 90° to where a rocket on the pad points when it is on the horizon. To lead the Mun you need to shoot straight up when the Mun is setting on the horizon.

I chose the top of the VAB so it would be slightly less than 90°. In retrospect I suggest 2 or 3 VAB height would be better.

Setting Mun. I have the ship on a Launch Stability Enhancer cause I feared running out of Electrons while waiting for the Mun to set.

j0HcdFpl.png

It's noon so hard to see but the Mun is resting on the top of the VAB.

6PmWlcN.png

Going up

ZHvIeNHl.pngFVTDVELl.png

The burn was stopped with the Ap at 11,400,000m just like Mun. We are leading by about 80°.

BUJINGXl.png

Mun SOI

UivHmvR.png

Circularized

I111EkN.png

 

Lots of science sent on Allow partial.

rlSklew.png

 

 

And end of the challenge for me.

Copies of my archives are in the album.

 

Thanks a lot. Learned a few things.

 

ME

 

 

 

 

Edited by Martian Emigrant
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On 1/26/2018 at 1:52 PM, dvader said:

What about biome maps though? I'm currently flying around Minmus trying to resist the temptation of just looking at a map. Any opinions?

dvader,
 There's no reason why you shouldn't use biome maps.

Best,
-Slashy

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On 2018-01-24 at 11:13 PM, Martian Emigrant said:

 

  Hide contents

 

DSghCQ5l.pnghbLIzkQl.png

 

 

 

Martian Emigrant,

How did you get such a nice separation between the separator and structural fuselage? Those rods look like ordinary struts. There must be some trick I am unaware of.

I liked the looks of it and wanted to use something similar for my Corundum finale.

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1 hour ago, dvader said:

 

Martian Emigrant,

How did you get such a nice separation between the separator and structural fuselage? Those rods look like ordinary struts. There must be some trick I am unaware of.

I liked the looks of it and wanted to use something similar for my Corundum finale.

The rods are only for show. They are indeed ordinary Strut Connectors.

The fuselage and the coupler are spaced using the offset tool in the VAB.

If you hold the L-Shift you can offset further than the parent part.

I often use them to "Hold" parts that are otherwise floating magically.

I have used that technique to make the girded space in an N1 rocket for instance.

 

ME

Edited by Martian Emigrant

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1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

@Martian Emigrant, congratulations on completing vanadium, you may claim your badge. :)

"Cave wall" has been updated.

Thanks.

Proud.

I thought I was playing for Apatite. What is the difference? Because I went to the Mun?

 

ME

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49 minutes ago, Martian Emigrant said:

Thanks.

Proud.

I thought I was playing for Apatite. What is the difference? Because I went to the Mun?

 

ME

Oops. My mistake. :blush:

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14 hours ago, Martian Emigrant said:

If you hold the L-Shift you can offset further than the parent part.

Thanks! That's a feature I was completely unaware of. Seems like you can get 5 "steps" separation instead of the usual 3. That's gonna make my ascent much safer. Which means I just added some extra weight to my final mission. To be continued...

 

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6 minutes ago, dvader said:

Thanks! That's a feature I was completely unaware of. Seems like you can get 5 "steps" separation instead of the usual 3. That's gonna make my ascent much safer. Which means I just added some extra weight to my final mission. To be continued...

 

This is how I leaned about this:

 

ME

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I think I need a bit more sandbox practice before trying this for real :). Kerbals are really tough! 800 Kelvins is 527 Celsius. Paper autoignites at 240C...

5IxhitK.png

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I've finally finished my Corundum attempt. The early game is the most difficult because of the lack of cash and how a single failure can end the game. Even a few partial failures (like not reaching orbit but landing safely) can mean economic ruin. Some missions like a Mun flyby are also either really tedious or really risky since a high chance of hitting Muns SOI also means a high risk of being slingshotted to a higher orbit and not having the dV to return.

Once the Terrier + Electrics is unlocked, permanent cash making orbiters can be put around Mun/Minmus and unmanned probes can be used for science mining. This eliminates the risk of total failure and the game is just about gathering science.

The first part covers most of the early game (ends just before unlocking Electrics).
https://imgur.com/a/AhzKO

The second part finishes the early game by unlocking electrics and putting orbiters around Mun/Minmus. Then it's just about collecting all the science from Minmus.
https://imgur.com/a/tlcbO

But, as it turns out, the Highlands on Minmus are fake news and do not exist. Also, Bill the Science guy claims the Mun is of no scientific interest (it's just a rock). Therefore, we have to go somewhere else for the final 135 science which is the third and final part of my entry:
https://imgur.com/a/zyZEF

Before I end, Jeb sends his regards from this ugly non-green planet.
ZRiR1Ir.jpg

Bob would like to apologise for not being there but sends his regards from a solar orbit.


An executive summary of the mission is here:
o7q1Qfq.png


For those who don't read spreadsheets, the science points are estimated to be from:
Minmus 837
Duna 127.5
Kerbin 107.7
Ike 90
Mun 52.5

That's a total of 1214 points but I actually had 1370. I've estimated about 35 pts from recovery and perhaps 50 from contracts so something is a bit off.

Anyway, it was a fun challenge.

 

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@dvader, congratulations on completing corundum! That was truly epic! You have also been awarded the "order of the trilobite" for visiting another planet's SOI.

You may claim your badges. :cool:

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4 hours ago, dvader said:

Jeb is very proud of his new star. (Note, Bob is "assigned" not dead)

Congratulation....Poor Bob. I feel responsible.

 

I guess you have realized that you can't warp with a Kerbal as external cargo. He is a second ship with it's own orbit. He will phase though the walls and drift away.

....Plus you can't reload is propellant.

Finding Duna on a caveman salary is amazing. I can't even to begin thinking how you did that.

Bravo, well done,

 

ME

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3 minutes ago, Martian Emigrant said:

Finding Duna on a caveman salary is amazing. I can't even to begin thinking how you did that.

Yeah, that always amazes me when people do that. Cavemen don't have the tech to establish an interplanetary transfer, yet these folks find a way to do it anyhow...

My mammoth- skin cap is off to dvader. I've never encountered Duna in caveman and never tried :D

Best,
-Slashy

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39 minutes ago, Martian Emigrant said:

Finding Duna on a caveman salary is amazing. I can't even to begin thinking how you did that.

 

32 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

I've never encountered Duna in caveman and never tried :D

Not wanting to go to other planets in Caveman mode is why I made the Caveman Evolved challenge. I see all the pieces and understand how they work, but there's no way I'd ever want to do it myself :)

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14 hours ago, Martian Emigrant said:

Congratulation....Poor Bob. I feel responsible.

Don't worry. Your fuselage trick worked flawlessly :) There were other... miscalculations...

I had also tried a bit to fly around with external Kerbals in a sandbox and noticed the spooky drifting during warp. But, I also noticed they don't drift very far (tens of km in 6 months or so). The plan was therefore to pick up Bob before every orbit adjustment and then let him drift. However, I thought I could make it to Duna with just 5-6 burns but that was incredibly overoptimistic. I actually don't know how I lost Bob. He was holding on to a ladder inside a strucural fuselage and I was accelerating (not warping). If he fell off the ladder he should have fallen into fuselage but... he wasn't there... I couldn't go back for him since I had botched the Kerbin escape and was concerned about my fuel budget.

As for Duna, (GoSlash27 and 5thHorseman) it isn't that hard (in theory). The plan was to start with an elliptic orbit from Kerbin orbit to Duna orbit not bothering at all with transfer windows. Once you're up there, note how far Duna moves along its orbit during half of your orbit. Figure out when Duna and you will be close to the intersection point and wait. Once Duna is close, circularise and let your orbit be just a bit bigger/smaller depending on where Duna is and then gradually decrease the difference until you hit it.

This strategy worked great for failed Mun/Minmus transfers but I had not taken Dunas size into account. It happened many times that I was slowly letting Duna catch up with me (or vice versa) but when it got close, the orbits were say 100Mm apart and I missed (again) and had to start over. 100Mm difference in orbits really looks like nothing from the map view though so adjusting it was a lot of guesswork and patience.

I suppose Eve might be a better target since it is bigger but also has a smaller orbit (easier to see the diff). Maybe even Jool...

I have a long video if anyone is interested but there's something like 45 mins of waiting and adjusting orbits in the middle of it...

 

 

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Alright!

 

Round two, and this time no cheating because I did it full vanilla, without even a graphical mod (also, the first try had KJR. Not sure if it's cheating, but no risk taken (I don't want to restart 2x (grr (there are way too many parentheses)))).

 

I'll do as many as I can, in an ascending difficulty order. Let's start with the easiest:

https://imgur.com/a/I6b2e

Major edit: Apatite is done too!

https://imgur.com/a/9W3ad

My evil plan is advancing...

 

Edited by MinimalMinmus
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@MinimalMinmus, I don't see that KJR would be of any use in the extreme early career that caveman is played in. Plus you've already restarted once. Next time though, 100% stock or risk forfeiting your entry. There are just too many mods out there that would make the Caveman challenge far too easy. Congrats on completing Talc and Apatite!

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14 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

@MinimalMinmus, I don't see that KJR would be of any use in the extreme early career that caveman is played in. Plus you've already restarted once. Next time though, 100% stock or risk forfeiting your entry. There are just too many mods out there that would make the Caveman challenge far too easy. Congrats on completing Talc and Apatite!

This IS full stock this time, I was just wondering. Because my rockets surely wobble a lot!

 

Oh, and vanadium, too, for glory of Great Russia: https://imgur.com/a/pCV43

Edited by MinimalMinmus

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Okay, sorry for double post, but I must ask: what are your tips for Corundum?

More immediately, here's my successful (but very French) hard attempt! As I did better than with KER (that ended with Jeb and Val dead), I think I have fully expurged my technological sin.

https://imgur.com/a/fN7nm

https://imgur.com/a/ZogvJ

 

Edit again: you know what?

dxOeDeq.png

FUJqGP7.png

vPBHkpB.png

EDIT: my screen should now read:

"GENE'S ADVICE:"

Git gud

Edited by MinimalMinmus

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MinimalMinmus,
 
 Glad to see you tackling the Caveman Challenge with a vengeance!

Best,
-Slashy

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MinimalMinmus,

Good work with Hard. Also, I didn't know I could read french, but apparently I can!

I'm really looking forward to seeing a Corundum attempt. I am especially curious about any differences in planning since the margins are so thin and the options are very limited.

The main lesson would be, plan ahead. Don't do anything without calculating the consequences for both your cash and science. Accepting the wrong contract, developing a tech too early or launcing a non-essential craft can deplete either cash or science and may lead you to a dead end. Also, use a sandbox to test (almost) all missions in advance. In the early game, you can't afford more than perhaps one failure or you will run out of cash. I almost abandoned my successful playthrough after a failed attempt to reach orbit (but decided to keep going and see how far I got).

From my perspective, the challenge is really split in two, an early game before you can orbit Mun and a late game when you can orbit Mun. In the early game, cash is the biggest problem. If you research Barometer or Material Bays too early you may not have the cash to reach enough biomes to compensate the cost. Once you can orbit Mun (I'd say when you have the Terrier), infinite cash can be obtained by a single craft in polar orbit and the "do 3 measurements ABOVE x meters" contracts.

In fact, I'd say the early game is all about unlocking the Terrier. It should be your only focus. But, it would be really interesting to see a different approach.

The late game is not as risky as the early game. Yes, you can still fail if your kerbals die but once you've unlocked Electrics and can do unmanned flights, you are safe.

The scariest thing was probably the Mun flyby. The margins were really thin, both in terms of dV and cash. If the orbit changed too much from the flyby I would not be able to return and without a return, I could not afford a retry (and Jeb would be lost). I did a lot of sandbox testing before launching.

 

 

 

 

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On 16/02/2018 at 5:24 PM, dvader said:

From my perspective, the challenge is really split in two, an early game before you can orbit Mun and a late game when you can orbit Mun. In the early game, cash is the biggest problem. If you research Barometer or Material Bays too early you may not have the cash to reach enough biomes to compensate the cost. Once you can orbit Mun (I'd say when you have the Terrier), infinite cash can be obtained by a single craft in polar orbit and the "do 3 measurements ABOVE x meters" contracts.

Well guess what? I did another run. It's only made more infuriating by the fact that I died due to a contract that was made to give me the 45th science needed for advanced rocketry. Jeb RUDed on a suborbital orbit due to an oversight of a problem I didn't have the first time, and now I'm out of cash (I was planning on making it reusable at least partially to save cash)

 

EDIT: I'm doing another run, this time it will be more scientifical: I'm getting a spreadsheet to make a repository of working low tech designs for future cavemen.

Edited by MinimalMinmus

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