The Duna Enterprise - Dialogue

[GarrisonChisholm]

Preamble.

Good morning all.  I have an idea for a collaborative story, a format that has worked on another game forum I spend some time on, and I am curious what those who value "story" here would think about it.

The general premise is that "my" KSP is ready to attempt a manned (balled? no, can't do it) Duna flight, but that some major decisions need to be made about the program and a "proceed" call made.  It strikes me as a moment in my game's history when some artistic drama could occur.

So what I am asking here is if anyone would be interested in participating.  What I envision is writing up a "history" of things to get the story to this point, then lay-out the present situation by having a main character (probably Gene) give a presentation and then open the floor for discussion.  Other writers would then "introduce" their characters at the meeting, and we would all weigh in on the topic and debate.  Eventually the meeting would conclude, and I would then "pay-off" everyone's participation by chronicling the ensuing mission(s).

At this point I am only proposing this as a possible story- it will depend both on feedback and health (a faint concern), but at the moment I feel highly inclined to proceed.

First post would probably be next week.  So, would anyone be interested?

 

(For what its worth, the following event occured in the same game, and would be part of the discussion's history;)

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by GarrisonChisholm
Additional info

[Sorabh]

Mon dieu~~ 

To Duna, with Kerbalism?? 

The inclusion of that mod alone will create space for several interesting stories....

[GarrisonChisholm]

We shall hope so!  Right now my fool-proof plan is heavily shielded by naivete, but we shall see how it goes!

[Mikki]

Hi there, you must install DeepFreeze, without this mod interplanetary travel on Kerbalism is close to impossible. I am curious about peoples adventures on Kerbalism in career mode, it is thrilling as hell! 

[GarrisonChisholm]

Well thanks for chiming in @Mikki-  I had been discussing your efforts as my plans started to form into shape!  Unfortunately, the game became unrecoverable shortly after I posted my idea.  I am uncertain as to why, though my suspicions are;

1)  Saved game during KCT roll-out of modestly complex rocket.

2)  First save attempt after landing the Active Shield Kerbalism part on Duna as part of an unmanned test, perhaps it triggered something internally.

3)  The occasionally discussed 'failure to load' effect of a longish Kerbalism game with many craft about many bodies.

However, my interest in using Kerbalism remains high, and I will not abandon it after one failure.  After about 5 days of trying to recover Any save from that game I have started a new one.  I plan to limit (somewhat) things which are tangential to getting to Duna in this game and try again.  Based on one conversation It appears I have at least one interested co-author, so this thread (or a fresh one?) should contain entertainment content shortly (well, relatively speaking). 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by GarrisonChisholm

[Mikki]

2 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

Well thanks for chiming in @Mikki-  I had been discussing your efforts as my plans started to form into shape!  Unfortunately, the game became unrecoverable shortly after I posted my idea.  I am uncertain as to why, though my suspicions are;

...

3)  The occasionally discussed 'failure to load' effect of a longish Kerbalism game with many craft about many bodies.

...  Based on one conversation It appears I have at least one interested co-author, so this thread (or a fresh one?) should contain entertainment content shortly (well, relatively speaking). 

I have reverted back to 1.3 to get a stable Kerbalism Savegame... I am allways looking for People who try to get off Kerbin with Kerbalism, the further away they get the more challenging it gets... I am currently fiddling with a serious six Kerbal interplanetary to ... Jool and Laythe... you would be shocked when you see the Craft, it contains five Modules to lift separatly to orbit (With Nerteas Launch vehicles ) and actually i am figuring out the Payload, a lander for Laythe... it is deeply extreme about getting anything right because i am sending my "Career Kerbals" up there...!
I am gonna make a pic now... hold on... Its crazy.

Do you make a stockish attempt? I use Near Future mods and such...

EDIT:

Maybe you can get some ideas from here, i dont care... It is actually exact 400tons, 120 meters, 14000 dV, but this will change, the lander is lacking at least. It is separated by large docking rings from NFT, Nuclear engine, LH2 and Monoprop (Again...) ... It has DeepFreezers for six Kerbals, Three Shields, Three Greenhouses and basically anything except perpetual Water supply... but i will be able to drain Water and Ore from Asteroids! Yeah! 
(I made my experience with Kerbalism as you see...) And it is saving dV by Aerocapture, allways!!!!

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mikki

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Mikki said:

I am allways looking for People who try to get off Kerbin with Kerbalism, the further away they get the more challenging it gets...

"Once you get to Earth orbit, you're halfway to anywhere [...]" --Heinlein

...holds equally true for Kerbin, delta-vee-wise, but point taken that it gets progressively more challenging when your crew needs to consume mass-based resources in order to stay alive.

And since I see the OP struggling with derivatives of the term "manned" may I suggest "crewed"? It works as well for Kerbals as it does for human astronauts who do not all happen to be male  

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kuzzter

[GarrisonChisholm]

  That seems the best solution; even though I can make a sound linguistics argument for 'balled', I just...  yeah. 

"Crewed" it shall be.

 

And Mikki, you would laugh at my prototype from my failed save.  It is far less elegant and brute-force than yours, and also smaller.

The thing is, if you are playing a "this is real" game, how do you "safely" find out about radiation exposure without killing Kerbals?  My solution was to simply build as anti-radiation as I could and launch, and I bet they would have died about a 1/4 of the way there.  ...I suppose a distant Kerbin orbit might have allowed me to note the slow buildup of radiation, so-long as Kerbalism provides it without a "whanny"; i.e., "they're dead, Jim."

However, at this point I have a new game, I am working back up towards interplanetary, and I will be coming up with some distinctive (hopefully) back-story before the project begins!

[Mikki]

33 minutes ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

  That seems the best solution; even though I can make a sound linguistics argument for 'balled', I just...  yeah. 

"Crewed" it shall be.

 

And Mikki, you would laugh at my prototype from my failed save.  It is far less elegant and brute-force than yours, and also smaller.

The thing is, if you are playing a "this is real" game, how do you "safely" find out about radiation exposure without killing Kerbals?  My solution was to simply build as anti-radiation as I could and launch, and I bet they would have died about a 1/4 of the way there.  ...I suppose a distant Kerbin orbit might have allowed me to note the slow buildup of radiation, so-long as Kerbalism provides it without a "whanny"; i.e., "they're dead, Jim."

However, at this point I have a new game, I am working back up towards interplanetary, and I will be coming up with some distinctive (hopefully) back-story before the project begins!

Check the box down right which shows radiation, by clicking the term it reveals all the radiation doses for the different locations, and yes i tell you now a "secret"... Deep Freeze containers cure radiation sickness... and your Kerbals will get sick (interplanetary), no matter how much lead and shields you carry on your vessel... best of luck You will encounter serious problems with Kerbalism unless you start engineering "seriously" around weight, partcount and redundancy... and supplies. You are up for headaches if you go interplanetary, and when you leave Kerbins SOI your KSP game wont be the same again, you will see...! There is a "point of no return", and if you fail your Crew will die in no time...! Kerbalism is damn hard, you will see...   And High Quality parts ... just the best... they add weight... and cost... and ... have some engineer on board to fix delicate stuff... parts will break randomly, even high quality ones... take care ...

And keep an eye on your powerconsumption/supply!

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mikki

[Sorabh]

Here are my two cents~

Spoiler

This is a very overdesigned ship, atleast in terms of fuel. And it bakes crew with radiation from its LV-N engines. I will probably send the landers to Duna separately.

Spoiler

I let it float in high earth orbit to check how it works against radiation. Sadly the crew died before they could harvest the first crops from the greenhouse....

[Mikki]

@Sorabh Looks good for a first interplanetary vessel, i suggest to launch the craft for extended time to a parking orbit with the crew and watch how the system performs untill you leave Kerbin SOI, give it a Kick in Sandbox mode if you risk your career-Kerbals later... Do you have DeepFreeze installed??  Your Kerbals wont survive the coasting legs to Duna and back, its mandatory mod for Kerbalism, at least interplanetary...
LV-n radiation is not simulated (Afaik, i play still 1.3), but to compensate this feat you could put the engines on a longer centerboom to make it somewhat "realistic". I do this by myself to have a somewhat reasonable tradeoff for this "doubtfull" propulsion method...

@GarrisonChisholm, can you share some pics of your concepts, what mod do you use if any other? Going all stock seemed to me truely unimaginable... What kind of lander/ascender craft do you have in mind? Are you going to pinpoint a landing or randomly land where the crewe drops?

[Sorabh]

@Mikki Yes, I have a cryo pod for three crew in the ship. However,  I had no idea that DeepFreeze parts cleanse radiation. And LV-N emit at around 0.02 rad/h... thats very dangerous! 

So I was in the process of designing a LFO spaceship

Spoiler

Spoiler

And I just realised we can use empty fuel tanks as habitat

Spoiler

 

[GarrisonChisholm]

Is it truly impossible to use Kerbalism beyond Kerbin SOI w/o Cryo Sleep?  :\    This I find disappointing.  I know this is a fictional universe, but this is a departure from "reality" that was a step farther than my vision had been prepared to go.

Well, nothing to be done for it I suppose.

[Sorabh]

Well.. it is possible.. but you will have to take drastic measures (loading up your ships with several Active Shields, all out chemical propulsion/Airbrake to avoid LV-N engines, High energy transfers to lower coasting time, which will in turn need even bigger Tanks, short surface stays.) And even then I am not sure if its feasible beyond Duna. Although @Mikki is the expert, she can give greater insight.

[Sorabh]

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930013159.pdf

Maybe this document could be of use.....

[Mikki]

You just cannot carry that much supplies and water with you as Kerbals need... unless you send a single-Kerbal crew. You need at least four active shields to stay most of the time at 0.000 rads per hour. And then there will be solar storms and high energetic radiation belts/plasmoids around Kerbin/ Duna. The DeepFreeze mod enables us to make multi-Kerbal missions, you can look at it like a stormshelter substitute. Kudos if you make it to Duna and back without deepfreeze...
 

2 hours ago, Sorabh said:

Well.. it is possible.. but you will have to take drastic measures (loading up your ships with several Active Shields, all out chemical propulsion/Airbrake to avoid LV-N engines, High energy transfers to lower coasting time, which will in turn need even bigger Tanks, short surface stays.) And even then I am not sure if its feasible beyond Duna. Although @Mikki is the expert, she can give greater insight.

...he can give greater insight... 

The NASA  paper mentioned a 4.5ton radiation shield for a reasonable NTR propelled transfervessel to mars... and LH2 tanks between it and crewquarters... Damn nuketreaty...

[Sorabh]

@Mikki Meep....

And BTW, how long are your missions to Duna?

Also, can we edit cfg files of heat shields to make them radiation absorbers at the cost of ablator? Or is that a bit too much? @GarrisonChisholm

Edited December 9, 2017 by Sorabh

[Mikki]

2 minutes ago, Sorabh said:

@Mikki Meep....

And BTW, how long are your missions to Duna?

I guess 1.5 - 1.8 Kerbin years at least...?

I think i try again to build a transfervessel for three or four  Kerbals without DeepFreeze... I bugs me really now how much supplies are needed for a short stay in Duna orbit and the return leg to Kerbin. Gonna put some shields this time and a greenhouse or two. 
This will get heavy i guess...

[Sorabh]

My design boasts of a 1.5 year habitability. I will try to take it up to 2. Maybe I can reduce the transit time for better effect....

[Mikki]

@GarrisonChisholm Hi there, i hope you didn`t throw the towell allready... look i took a sharp look at The things and made an example for the minimal loadout to Duna, it does not contain Power, propulsion and such, only life support minimal needs for a 2.5 year roundtrip...

Pay attention to at least one water recycler and one SOE reactor...

At the rear are two large water containers,
One large and two medium Food containers not filled in the middle.

Ammonia to service the greenhouses, they make food enough for four Kerbals perpetually

Two tanks of oxygen, one nitrogen

I really don`t know if three shields would be sufficient for survival... 

Spoiler

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Mikki

[Sorabh]

 

Feasible? I mean look at the bright side, you only have to accelerate a small ascent stage to escape velocity instead of a larger ship. Although if you miss your mothership rendezvous once, there will be no way to go back home.....

 

Edit: I made a low L/D ratio Duna Transfer Vehicle. It has all essential resources for atleast 2 years. Radiation tolerance for 4 years.

 

It can aerocapture into Kerbin and Duna orbit. It has about 1200 m/s delta v in tanks (I can increase it ), Which it will use for Duna to Kerbin transfer.

The design is still preliminary though, there are a lot of improvements to add (Docking port for LFO tug) and the Duna Excursion Vehicle has to be sent separately.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Sorabh

[Mikki]

@Sorabh i see you are trying to mirror a certain missionprofile of NASA... Looks good to me, a single Kerbal mission has its own pros and cons... a pilot has limited repair skills, do you really dare to send him alone? A single shield is not enough, you are dead by the return leg i guess... My Jeb accumulated once a close to lethal dose on a Duna mission... by the time of arrival at Duna orbit, with one shield.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mikki

[Sorabh]

It may be a cupola, but I will be sending two kerbals... and with maximum shielding, it says my kerbals will be alive for 11 years? I dunno, I am  a bit confused... @Mikki

[Mikki]

3 hours ago, Sorabh said:

It may be a cupola, but I will be sending two kerbals... and with maximum shielding, it says my kerbals will be alive for 11 years? I dunno, I am  a bit confused... @Mikki

No other way around than to launch and see what happens 

Today i start my ridiculous Kerbalism-Laythe mission. Most insane thing i ever pulled off in KSP, i wish you good luck too! 

@GarrisonChisholm sorry for cluttering your thread

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mikki

[SpaceN00b]

@GarrisonChisholm If you are still interested i think it would be a cool thing to todo