Nikolai Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Green Baron said: If you only look at selection then the difference between artificial and natural is important Oh, I don't contest that the distinction is useful. It often is. It's just not the case that the boundary between the two is always clear. 5 hours ago, Green Baron said: these examples are not selection, these are modifications during lifetime of an individual. Neither the girl's paint or even silicon insets nor the boy's muscles are traded to the next generation. The offspring might just be a couch potato. Well, there, again, we have a gray area. The modifications themselves are not selected, but the genes of the one who received the modifications (as a result of her own will or not) are selected for reproduction over someone else's. There's still selection going on, even if it's not selection of genes that would directly give rise to certain traits deemed attractive. 5 hours ago, Green Baron said: your example @Nikolai, sexual attraction, is actually signaled through posture and body chemistry between individuals signaling "Hey, i am compatible !". So that is absolutely natural selection. I don't think it's that clear. The attraction I mentioned included neither posture nor body chemistry; you read those into my description somehow. I explicitly mentioned the attraction came as a result of modification to an individual's appearance. Edited December 11, 2017 by Nikolai Reformatted "distinction is useful" block for greater clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Green Baron said: sexual attraction, is actually signaled through posture and body chemistry between individuals signaling "Hey, i am compatible !" If this is so simple, why the "chemistry" reacts on absolutely different persons, while does not react on almost similar to the "compatible" one? This sounds like the infamous "men like long female legs because they allow to the girl to run away from a leopard". Nobody can run away from a leopard, but short and curvy legs allow to hide in the grass, ergo, men should like short and curvy legs. And hairy - because a grass camouflage. Edited December 11, 2017 by kerbiloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Baron Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Yeah, sure, genes define the extent to which an organism can modify itself during the lifetime. And of course the material in use, you can't overstress bones too much or they'll break, and muscles atrophy if overused, but you can stimulate growth or decay by activity or inactivity. That is called modification. Only if it becomes fitness-defining in a sense that the individual has a better chance to over his contemporaries then the feature will have a chance to be traded to the next generation. But, you know, some like these, others like those, or in simple words, for every pot there is a lid. Sexual selection, be it through willingly or unwillingly provoked modification, is clearly natural selection. I think the question natural/artificial arises when we for example breed and bring up individuals who would otherwise not have survived or even been born. Don't get me wrong ! I were not here if we did not have these abilities ! @kerbiloid, this isn't simple at all. In contrary ... :-) How does your partner smell ? And how smell the arbitrary people in a subway ? There is a lot going on with these signals, and a lot of work to be found about it, actually. I am thinking of disease resistance or immune system in-/compatibility. I am too lazy to search, but clinic work on this exists. Edited December 11, 2017 by Green Baron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: I think the question natural/artificial arises when we for example breed and bring up individuals who would otherwise not have survived or even been born. Sorry to be a troublemaker, but as usual, it's not that simple -- especially if we're talking about selecting a species' tendency to be social. That involves both natural and artificial selection, especially if we're talking about a tendency towards altruism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Green Baron said: How does your partner smell ? And how smell the arbitrary people in a subway ? I would say that unlikely she smells somewhat really rather different than average people do. The smell just designates somebody/something's proximity, and only your perception of the smell source itself decides whether the absolutely same smell is attractive or disgusting, do you want to get closer or away from the source. 5 hours ago, Green Baron said: There is a lot going on with these signals, and a lot of work to be found about it, actually. I am thinking of disease resistance or immune system in-/compatibility. And I believe that cats, dogs and other fuzzies would disagree with you. They... found attractive very different things, though their chemical sensors are orders of magnitude more sensible than human's. The same with birds with their sharp vision. Why are you sure that the "sex" and "attraction" have something common with "reproduction" at all? Does a cat get to the street because it is going to breed? Don't confuse process and result. Edited December 12, 2017 by kerbiloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Baron Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Nikolai said: Sorry to be a troublemaker, but as usual, it's not that simple -- especially if we're talking about selecting a species' tendency to be social. That involves both natural and artificial selection, especially if we're talking about a tendency towards altruism. No problem :-) Nothing simple or complicated in the question alone. It is only that in my opinion that what you call artificial (girl's makeup) is natural and it is modification because i doesn't affect the genes, only the lifetime aspects. The bar is higher for artificial selection in my understanding. Examples below. 5 hours ago, kerbiloid said: The smell just designates somebody/something's proximity, Nope. It does far more than that. Haven't you noticed yet :-) ? SeeSmell pheromones for example ! Edit: just one example of many, body symmetry. But it goes deeper, resistances for example, immune system compatibilities, and more is signaled through smells. Besides a hard working day ;-) Quote And I believe that cats, dogs and other fuzzies would disagree with you. Cats and dogs are human made and their reproduction is under human control. If they stride around abandoned they are frequently killed. Quote Does a cat get to the street because it is going to breed? Don't confuse process and result. Yes, it does. For days the females. When they come home they are pregnant. Ask a veterinary about the merits of sterilization. And no, i try not to :-) A sterilized cat will rarely go to street (it will as well from time to time) it'll stay close if there is a nice garden to play in. A grass blade can be so exciting :-) Sterilization in cats for example makes them stay at home so they aren't too easy killed on the road. Cat's and dogs "design" like color etc. is artificially selected by humans under the application of natural laws. Which results in many cases in a huge reduction in "fitness" but that'll lead too far here. But of course the same rules apply to humans and everything else as well. Btw., domesticated species behave completely different than their wild ancestors. Clinic tests with guinea pigs have revealed this scientifically, achaeological observation of the size of sheep, goat, pigs and horses show how they get smaller in the beginning of the domestication process (human selected, the smaller ones are easier to control) and then bigger again when the natural nastiness has gone (pigs and horses)and the work force or meat is needed. 'Nother example of artificial selection because it takes several (not many) generations for the effect to show. Edit: but of course i completely agree with you guys in saying that the differences between artificial and natural selection are not clear and drawn with a ruler. Edited December 12, 2017 by Green Baron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: Smell pheromones for example ! Try do distinguish 1 person from a 1000 items sampling by the pheromones smell with statistically significant probability. 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: immune system compatibilities, Very strange then, that resus-conflict, haemophilia and other major biochemical diseases and incompatibilities keep silence. They would loudly cry smell: Halt! Get away! 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: Cats and dogs are human made and their reproduction is under human control Street cats and dogs disagree about human control. 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: Yes, it does. Really? 1 hour ago, Green Baron said: When they come home they are pregnant. Don't mix process and effect. She has no choice and unless it's milking she doesn't fall in love with a random kitten adopting it. Upd. If you live in a 50 people tribe or if you are a street cat having 10 neighbors, who needs to distinguish from 3-5 available options? Edited December 12, 2017 by kerbiloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Baron Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, kerbiloid said: Very strange then, that resus-conflict, haemophilia and other major biochemical diseases and incompatibilities keep silence. They would loudly cry smell: Halt! Get away! Not at all. In principle "olfactory communication" does actually signal that, well not "get away" but "i rather like this girl/boy than the other one". These are of course no "hard rules", statistics play a role. Not everybody is equally receptive or strong signaling and not everything is signaled at all. Genetic deficiencies like hemophilia happen significantly more often in populations where the choice is limited. But i quit now, there is libraries full of work on this, in medicine, psychology and cosmetics as well, i'd prefer the first two. If you like you can look it all up. If not, no problem :-) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347214003017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301211504004749 Edited December 12, 2017 by Green Baron Streamlined to avoid misunderstandings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Spoiler 16 hours ago, Green Baron said: But i quit now, there is libraries full of work on this, in medicine, psychology and cosmetics as well, i'd prefer the first two. If you like you can look it all up. If not, no problem :-) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347214003017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301211504004749 I am sure that you had studied these articles before you have recommended them, not just posted two random links from google. So, as they didn't help you to give me clear answers to very simple and short questions, I really don't need them. Anyway, all this was a big offtopic in this tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorabh Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 We are nowhere near the original topic anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Baron Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) If this is a misunderstanding @kerbiloid, then because your writing style is - like in your last post - frequently ironic/sarcastic, quick judging, and slightly personal. I probably could write that on my own flag :-) But you said that a smell only signals a presence of a person, i said that it does far more than that. If you care to look deeper into it you will see that the sense of smelling is as important as that of seeing and hearing, in evolution (here: sexual selection, that was the initial question) it even plays a central role. Slight differences in species that have a preference in one of their senses do exist. You also said in an ironic way that immune system compatibilities are not signaled. In the above links you can find studies that show that even the presence of specific genes are part of olfactory communication, which is a direct evidence of the role of smells in the human selection process. I agree with you in that we are off topic, but i had to point the above out. And i do not use Google :-) Edited December 13, 2017 by Green Baron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slam_Jones Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, kerbiloid said: Reveal hidden contents I am sure that you had studied these articles before you have recommended them, not just posted two random links from google. So, as they didn't help you to give me clear answers to very simple and short questions, I really don't need them. Anyway, all this was a big offtopic in this tread. 14 hours ago, Sorabh said: We are nowhere near the original topic anymore Soooo what's up with rocket guy these days? Launch still postponed? Last update looks to be from over a week ago. Very curious to see how this all plays out... I just hope the guy survives and maybe even learns something from this! This is the most recent article I've seen (though admittedly I havne't looked too hard): On 12/3/2017 at 5:36 PM, WildLynx said: Postponed... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/11/25/mad-mike-hughes-cancels-rocket-launch-prove-earth-flat/894762001/ Edited December 13, 2017 by Slam_Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeiss Ikon Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Slam_Jones said: Soooo what's up with rocket guy these days? Launch still postponed? Last update looks to be from over a week ago. He appears to have fallen out of the headline cycle. He may or may not be back when he has the necessary permissions in hand to actually launch -- or he may have gotten what he wanted (attention) and crawled back into his hole limo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheif Operations Director Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 On 11/22/2017 at 4:22 AM, KSK said: Came across this gem on Facebook the other day. I think the link says it all. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/61-year-old-limo-driver-lift-himself-sky-diy-steam-powered-rocket-1648177 Best Facebook comment: "I think I've seen this cartoon before. Spoiler warning - he doesn't catch the roadrunner." It would be funny if he said that would prove the flat earth then we could say your not high enough flat earth logic lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSlash27 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 I've been following this story looking for a reason to deflect this thread back on topic, but it appears that he has fallen off the face of the Earth. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for the horrible pun... Best, -Slashy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstah Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Best pun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booots Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Does anyone know if he ever launched? I remember his first attempt was scrubbed by the government (they want to keep us from finding out the secret! ). Does anyone have video of it if he has launched? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Kerman Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 14 minutes ago, Booots said: Does anyone have video of it if he has launched? Apparently here is a video of him being injured an earlier attempt (unmanned launch) but I can't find it. Quote That said, Hughes isn’t a totally unproven engineer. He set a Guinness World Record in 2002 for a limousine jump, according to Ars Technica, and has been building rockets for years, albeit with mixed results. “OK, Waldo. 3 … 2 … 1!” someone yells in a test-fire video from 2012. There’s a brief hiss of boiling water, then … nothing. So Hughes walks up to the engine and pokes it with a stick, at which point a thick cloud of steam belches out toward the camera. http://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2121908/limousine-driver-mad-mike-hughes-believes-earth-flat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSlash27 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Apparently the rocket fell off of the launcher, necessitating repairs. He's also been engaged in legal difficulties. His latest prediction is some time between Christmas and the Super Bowl. Best, -Slashy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said: Apparently the rocket fell off of the launcher, necessitating repairs. That guy deserves to get "Kerman" added to his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSlash27 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 They dropped the rocket 3 times in the process of unloading it from the launcher to take it to the shop. I don't know if this caused any further damage. Best, -Slashy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpaget Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said: -video snip- They dropped the rocket 3 times in the process of unloading it from the launcher to take it to the shop. I don't know if this caused any further damage. Best, -Slashy Can't help but think of this: Would make a great background music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperFastJellyfish Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) I predict the actual launch will look something like the first few seconds(0:33 to 0:45) of this video: Edited December 21, 2017 by SuperFastJellyfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpaget Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Update! Launch date 3 February! http://www.ladbible.com/news/technology-viral-news-flat-earther-mad-mike-hughes-has-new-launch-date-for-homemade-rocket-20180124.amp.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSlash27 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 W00t! Also keep in mind that his intention isn't to prove the Earth is flat on this flight. It's just to 1) make a new record, and 2) raise awareness and funding for future flights which will fly higher and faster. Or a publicity stunt if you prefer that wording. While I don't agree with his world view, I do sincerely hope that he has a safe and successful flight. Best, -Slashy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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