Controlling lander probe from a ship in the orbit

[CanOmer]

This will be my first visit to Eve so I don't want to send Kerbal because he/she will probably die, I also use life support mod. I want to send a probe first to orbit then to land. (No coming back.)

When the probe is making insertion maneuver by aerobraking, it'd probably be on the other side of the planet and connection between the probe and KSC will end. If I send a kerbal to Eve orbit, can he/she control the lander probe without connection to KSC? Namely there will not be connection between Eve orbital craft (a kerbal in it) and KSC but there will be connection between Eve orbital craft and probe lander.

What is the easiest way to not lost connection with probes near other planets on critical times such as maneuvers?

Edited January 4, 2018 by CanOmer

[HvP]

Hello @CanOmer

In order to remote-control a probe using a pilot on an orbiting ship you will need to outfit each vessel with a few different special components.

First, the probe going to the surface will need a probe core and an antenna, obviously. Bear in mind that the antenna will need to send/receive a signal while it is traveling through Eve's atmosphere and many stock antennae will break if they are deployed speeding through atmosphere. The Communotron 16-S is your best choice for descent because it can operate in atmosphere without breaking. You might also get away with using some of the larger fixed antennae if weight isn't a concern.

Now controlling from the mothership is somewhat more complicated.

To remotely control another probe you will need:

*At least one command pod with probe control point capabilities if not using an advanced probe core (as below.) Not all command pods can be used to remotely control a probe in the stock game. Most aircraft cockpits for example cannot remotely control probes. You can check this in the VAB by right-clicking the pod's icon in the parts list. If there is an info box labeled "Probe Control Point" then you will be able to remote control your probe using pilots with that kind of command pod. In that info box you will see how many pilots are needed in the pod to control it and if your pilot must be directly connected to the probe (one hop) or if you can bounce your signal from the pilot through another relay (Multi hop capable.) You won't necessarily need this command pod if you are using a probe core as mentioned below, but you will need at least one pilot on the craft.

     -Or *An advanced probe core on your controlling craft if your command pod doesn't have control point capability. Only the "RC-001S Remote Guidance Unit" or the "RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit" are capable of providing remote control capability in the stock game to assist your pilot. You will see the "Probe Control Point" info box in the description to confirm that it will allow remote control capabilities. Keep in mind that one of these probe cores is required on your controlling mothership in addition to the command pod that your pilots are using. Edited to add a correction: The advanced probe core is only required if you aren't using a command pod that meets the requirements for a probe control point.

*At least one relay antenna on your controlling craft with a range capable of reaching your probe. It must be a relay antenna, not a direct connect antenna (although you can have one of those too.)

*The minimum number of pilots on the controlling mothership as required by the control point. Note that the "Probe Control Point" info box for the remote capable pods or probe cores may state "Min. Pilots on Vessel: 1" or "2" depending on the probe core or command pod. It is my understanding that they must both be inside the remote capable command pod itself, but I haven't tested this, although it would make sense.

Also, when you right-click the icons for probe cores and command pods in the VAB you will see a line stating "Remote Pilot Assist available." Do not confuse this with the ability to control a probe with that item. All that means is that it can be controlled by remote control, not that it can do the controlling. Personally, I think this is a confusing and superfluous tag because it seems that every probe core and command pod in the stock game is capable of being remote controlled (assuming there is a non-pilot Kerbal in the command pod, otherwise what would be the point.)

I think that's everything. I personally never use remote pilot assist myself. I find it easier to just set up a network of powerful relay satellites in orbit first. If you have three or four big relays in orbit around Eve then you can be reasonably certain to always have a link back to the KSC. But this is expensive and time consuming so I can see the utility of having a pilot for remote control for some early missions in some situations.

Edited for corrections: Thank you to @Gordon Fecyk, @Cpt Kerbalkrunch, @Rocket In My Pocket, @Aegolius13, and @Spricigo for important corrections to this list.

Edited January 9, 2018 by HvP
Correcting mistakes

[Snark]

^ What @HvP said.

A few other things to think about, as you consider various design options.

First,

3 hours ago, CanOmer said:

Namely there will not be connection between Eve orbital craft (a kerbal in it) and KSC

...That's really easy to fix.  Just launch a relay antenna into some solar orbit with a Pe lower than Kerbin's, so that it's far away from Kerbin at the time that your ship arrives at Eve.  That way, your Eve orbit ship can maintain a KSC connection through the solar relay.  Simple, quick, cheap, doesn't require any fancy design.

3 hours ago, CanOmer said:

critical times such as maneuvers

You can also arrange to make your maneuver in a place where you do have a connection, even without a relay as suggested above.  Let's take the worst-case scenario, for example.  Let's suppose that your probe arrives such that its Eve periapsis will happen in the worst possible place for comms, i.e. on the side of Eve directly 180 degrees away from the path to Kerbin.  And right at that periapsis is where you'd like to put your braking maneuver node for optimum dV efficiency, right?

Well, you've got options.

• Option 1:  Use an extra solar relay, as suggested above.
• Option 2:  If you're aerobraking to orbit, just aerobrake.  Doesn't matter if you lose connection when you're in Eve's shadow, because your ship is just a brick anyway.  As soon as it leaves atmosphere and coasts back around to Eve apoapsis, then you'll have a connection (because you'll be on the Kerbin side of Eve), and you can burn to raise your Pe out of atmosphere, and Bob's your uncle.
• Option 3:  If you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of dV efficiency, don't do your burn right at Pe.  Do it either just before you pass into Eve's radio shadow, or just after you come out of it.  It's not quite as efficient as doing the burn at Pe, since you sacrifice some Oberth benefit, but it's not that big a deal; just add a bit of dV safety margin to your ship design.
• Option 4:  (Assumes you have a piloted ship.)  The ship doesn't just carry an Eve-descent probe.  It also carries a couple of tiny little relay satellites, each with an HG-5.  You fly into Eve orbit (piloted, so you don't care about comms).  Release the relay satellites, which do a burn to put them in different orbits.  Now you've got a tidy little near-Eve relay network with pretty good coverage of the ground.  Release your descent probe, then wait to do its descent burn until things are lined up nicely so that it can talk probe-to-relay-to-ship-to-KSC.
• Option 5:  Design the descent probe so that it doesn't actually need a signal when it's on the way down-- it's just a brick with a parachute that can land itself safely without any signal at all.  When it's time to go down, you lob it into the atmosphere.  That is, the crewed ship does a burn, lowering its Pe into atmosphere.  Immediately release the descent probe.  Then, quickly (before your ship actually drops into atmosphere), flip the ship around and burn to raise its Pe back up out of atmosphere again.  Then switch to the probe (before it hits atmosphere) and ride it down.

...And I'm sure there are others, too, but that's just a sampling.  There are many ways to skin that particular cat. 

[CanOmer]

Great info and guide, thanks.

[ajburges]

Can't you have the largest probe core (2.5 m) on a ship to allow any pod to work as a control point or is that a control point regardless of pilots?

[Gordon Fecyk]

22 hours ago, HvP said:

*An advanced probe core on your controlling craft. Only the "RC-001S Remote Guidance Unit" or the "RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit" are capable of providing remote control capability in the stock game.

How far along is @CanOmer along in their tech tree though?

ShadowZone got it down with his KSP 1.2 video explaining this. If you want to control a probe core remotely with a single pilot in the craft, the craft needs that pilot, an RC-001S or RC-L01, and a relay antenna.

However if you don't have access to the RC series probes yet, you can do it with a Mk1-2 pod, two pilots, and a relay antenna. That much I can verify having done it myself. Note the lack of connectivity to start, then note the walkie-talkie-like icon when switching to the first probe deployment.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

14 minutes ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

How far along is @CanOmer along in their tech tree though?

ShadowZone got it down with his KSP 1.2 video explaining this. If you want to control a probe core remotely with a single pilot in the craft, the craft needs that pilot, an RC-001S or RC-L01, and a relay antenna.

However if you don't have access to the RC series probes yet, you can do it with a Mk1-2 pod, two pilots, and a relay antenna. That much I can verify having done it myself. Note the lack of connectivity to start, then note the walkie-talkie-like icon when switching to the first probe deployment.

Pretty sure the Mk1-2 can control a probe without the relay as well, can't it? With 2 pilots and direct line of sight?

[Rocket In My Pocket]

30 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Pretty sure the Mk1-2 can control a probe without the relay as well, can't it? With 2 pilots and direct line of sight?

Yes indeed!

The Mk2 Lander Can is capable of this as well.

[Aegolius13]

7 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Pretty sure the Mk1-2 can control a probe without the relay as well, can't it? With 2 pilots and direct line of sight?

Not sure what you mean by relay, but I think a relay antenna is always required on the controlling ship.  But you can do it without the RGU, as long as the command pod has two pilots.  

Conversely, the RGU probe cores can also do remote control without having one of the fancier command pods.  You just need to have a pilot somewhere on the control craft (it can be in a passenger cabin, even).*  

*Note: this leads to the odd situation where a pilot in a passenger cabin can control the subordinate craft, but not the craft he's actually in.  

[Rocket In My Pocket]

27 minutes ago, Aegolius13 said:

Not sure what you mean by relay, but I think a relay antenna is always required on the controlling ship.  But you can do it without the RGU, as long as the command pod has two pilots.  

Conversely, the RGU probe cores can also do remote control without having one of the fancier command pods.  You just need to have a pilot somewhere on the control craft (it can be in a passenger cabin, even).*  

*Note: this leads to the odd situation where a pilot in a passenger cabin can control the subordinate craft, but not the craft he's actually in.  

This had me wondering as well.

I think what he's asking is more so; does the parent ship need a signal to Kerbin in the first place to remote control the child ship? Or can Kerbals who don't have any signal, still control probes so long as they have one of the RGU equipped command pods or an RGU probe core?

I've never had a good reason to actually use this feature so I don't have much actual experience with it to go on.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Gordon Fecyk]

21 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Or can Kerbals who don't have any signal, still control probes so long as they have one of the RGU equipped command pods or an RGU probe core?

It appears that pilots in a suitably equipped craft can control probe cores directly, without a comm link to KSC. This is what happened in my career playthrough when I turned off extra ground stations and deployed my first KSO relay network.

ShadowZone further demonstrated that any relay antenna on the controlling craft needs to be deployed first., specifically the case for the HG-5. The other relay antennae are always on as long as they have power.

You can try some remote control experiments with my Iktomi Prototype craft. (96 KB ZIP.) It has probe cores in each module and a single HG-5 on the command module consisting of two Mk1-2 pods. Put the prototype on the runway, cheat it around Dres, Jool or Eeloo, and experiment with the remote control functionality. See what works and what doesn't.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

Confusing myself here. Had to try it out and see what's what. The Mk1-2 (or Mk2 Lander Can; didn't know about that one, thanks to @Rocket In My Pocket) has to have a relay antenna onboard. The probe doesn't need an antenna at all. Its own onboard antenna is sufficient. You can also control more than one, though obviously only one at a time. Interesting, if nothing else. Maybe the Mk1 lander can with probecore as a small detachable lander to ferry Kerbals to and from the surface? Or send down a scientist to grab soil samples and other science? Might work out, in the right instances. I do take a lot of "rescue so and so from the surface of wherever" contracts. I'll have to try it out.

[Aegolius13]

2 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I think what he's asking is more so; does the parent ship need a signal to Kerbin in the first place to remote control the child ship? Or can Kerbals who don't have any signal, still control probes so long as they have one of the RGU equipped command pods or an RGU probe core?

I believe he mothership does not need a connection to Kerbin to do this.  That's kind of the factor that distinguishes the special remote control function of the high-end pods and probe cores.  After all, any old craft with a relay antenna can connect an unmanned probe back to Kerbin, so that the probe can be controlled normally.

[Spricigo]

On 04/01/2018 at 7:04 PM, HvP said:

Hello @CanOmer

In order to remote-control a probe using a pilot on an orbiting ship you will need to outfit each vessel with a few different special components.

First, the probe going to the surface will need a probe core and an antenna, obviously. Bear in mind that the antenna will need to send/receive a signal while it is traveling through Eve's atmosphere and many stock antennae will break if they are deployed speeding through atmosphere. The Communotron 16-S is your best choice for descent because it can operate in atmosphere without breaking. You might also get away with using some of the larger fixed antennae if weight isn't a concern.

Now controlling from the mothership is somewhat more complicated.

To remotely control another probe you will need:

...

 

Sorry, but you got some details wrong. The mothership need:

1. A Probe Control Point. Either a Remote Guidance Unit or a commmand pod with that functionality.

2. The number of pilots required by your Probe Control Point (1 for RGU, 2 for MK1-2 pod or MK2 lander can) anywhere in the vessel, even on command seats or crew cabins.

3. A relay antenna.

 

5 hours ago, Aegolius13 said:

... the odd situation where a pilot in a passenger cabin can control the subordinate craft, but not the craft he's actually in.  

Like that?

Spoiler

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

7 hours ago, Aegolius13 said:

I believe he mothership does not need a connection to Kerbin to do this.  That's kind of the factor that distinguishes the special remote control function of the high-end pods and probe cores.  After all, any old craft with a relay antenna can connect an unmanned probe back to Kerbin, so that the probe can be controlled normally.

No, as I said, I've actually tested it now and it works fine. You just need the second pilot and a relay antenna on your command module. No antenna at all (except the onboard, built-in communication) required on the probe. However, I hope this is addressed in the 1.4 update. I know they have bigger concerns, but this is annoying. The relay antenna should not be required. You're not relaying a signal. You're sending a direct signal. If you have line of sight (and you're within range, obviously), the second pilot should be enough of a stipulation. Requiring a bulky relay antenna removes some of the usefulness of the feature (not to mention the "cool factor"). In a perfect world, I'd really love to see this ability extended to allow you to control lander cans. Not full probecore ability, of course, just the remote pilot feature. This would allow you to send small landers to and from the surface without a pilot on board. I know this can be accomplished by slapping a probecore on it but, again, not just for functionality but also for "cool factor". This would also lead to a rather unique ability with the Mk2 Lander Can. It could remotely pilot a probe (with a second pilot on board), or actually be remotely piloted if it had no pilots on board.

I know this wouldn't be at the top of anybody's wish list. Just think it would be cool (even more so if added to the new LEM in MHE). And welcome back to @Spricigo. Haven't seen ya in awhile. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[Spricigo]

On 06/01/2018 at 11:32 AM, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

. The relay antenna should not be required. You're not relaying a signal. You're sending a direct signal.

Well, I find it consistent with how relay antennas work in game. The relay antennas act as "routers" that can extend the communication network further while a direct antenna is a simple "access point". 

IMHO, rather than devaluing advanced Probecores/Command Pods, it give further value for relay antennas. It is unrealistic (the antenna dish define the software of the onboard computer ) but works for game purposes.

 

BTW, thank for the welcome.

[HvP]

Thanks guys for clearing up some misconceptions I had.

I've tried to incorporate the corrections into my response above for the sake of accuracy. Hopefully, it's not now too convoluted.

I can't beat @Spricigo for brevity.

On 1/6/2018 at 2:28 AM, Spricigo said:

Sorry, but you got some details wrong. The mothership need:

1. A Probe Control Point. Either a Remote Guidance Unit or a commmand pod with that functionality.

2. The number of pilots required by your Probe Control Point (1 for RGU, 2 for MK1-2 pod or MK2 lander can) anywhere in the vessel, even on command seats or crew cabins.

3. A relay antenna.