Citizen247

AJE Extended Configs

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Again, sorry for the delay. I've been ill, back to work tomorrow after a month off, got huge amounts to catch up on. Hopefully, I'll be able to shuffle this into the mix soonish. Camlost has also mentioned that they're working on rotor code, so I may be able to add rotors in soon!

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Glad to see you back @Citizen247! I have to admit, I was getting a little worried for you. :)

As a matter of fact, the newest version of AJE, released yesterday, has rotor code!

Edited by theonegalen
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Is it just me or do some of the engines, mostly turbofans, have really high idle thrust levels, yet do not develop their rated thrust at full throttle?
Also the thrust seems to fall off extremely fast with speed... Even with pure turbojet engines...

Why is that happening?

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1 hour ago, Kitspace said:

Is it just me or do some of the engines, mostly turbofans, have really high idle thrust levels, yet do not develop their rated thrust at full throttle?
Also the thrust seems to fall off extremely fast with speed... Even with pure turbojet engines...

Why is that happening?

Turbofans do have high idle thrust. It's a feature of AJE. As AJE is a physics-based simulation, maximum thrust is dependent on the situation the engine is operating in.

The only time I've come across Turdojets losing thrust at speed has been down to problems with air-intakes getting chocked due to misaligned intake transforms, or air intakes not properly aligned with the airflow.

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I have no problems with turbofans having high idle thrust, but still it seems exaggerated to me. Sometimes planes are accelerating like crazy when taxiing with closed throttles because of this high idle thrust, yet hardly reach 70-80m/s, just because thrust halves at that speed for some reason. Also, as an example, idle thrust of a CFM56 is higher than that of a CF6, despite the latter engine being much bigger, with more than double the rated thrust, which seems strange. Is it really supposed to be that way?

In what situations are turbofans supposed to give the rated thrust? I thought that should be just static at sea level?

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I found a couple of links which seem to give an idea of the sort of thrust turbofans have at idle.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/767sec6.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/777rsec6.pdf

And as an example of a smaller low bypass turbofan.
16000 pounds of normal takeoff thrust and 1040 pounds of idle thrust is quoted for a JT8D-17. Also as I understand the engines with a variable geometry nozzle should generally have slightly lower values than those with a simple fixed one as the nozzle aperture opens wide when idling and reduces the exhaust velocity.

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With stock you set maximum and minimum thrust levels and provide curves that determine the thrust dependent on speed and atmospheric density. In aje you provide engine parameters and Max thrust (with Max thrust being static thrust, so isn't necessarily the maximum thrust the engine can provide) and everything else is determined by the simulation.

To my knowledge there's not a lot I can do about high idle thrust, it's down to AJE itself and would best be flagged as a bug there. I agree that the high bypass turbofans tend to have way too high idle thrust, but it seems to be a feature of built in AJE engines as well as mine, so I think it's a problem in AJE itself.

If you can give me an idea of the which engines and air intakes are experiencing thrust falloff I can look in to what's causing that. :-)

Edited by Citizen247

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On 5/8/2018 at 6:03 PM, Kitspace said:

I have no problems with turbofans having high idle thrust, but still it seems exaggerated to me. Sometimes planes are accelerating like crazy when taxiing with closed throttles because of this high idle thrust, yet hardly reach 70-80m/s, just because thrust halves at that speed for some reason. Also, as an example, idle thrust of a CFM56 is higher than that of a CF6, despite the latter engine being much bigger, with more than double the rated thrust, which seems strange. Is it really supposed to be that way?

In what situations are turbofans supposed to give the rated thrust? I thought that should be just static at sea level?

what kind of mods are you using regarding CFM56 and CF6? I'll look into it. I have an impression that the idle thrust is generally a bit high too.

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:38 AM, Citizen247 said:

With stock you set maximum and minimum thrust levels and provide curves that determine the thrust dependent on speed and atmospheric density. In aje you provide engine parameters and Max thrust (with Max thrust being static thrust, so isn't necessarily the maximum thrust the engine can provide) and everything else is determined by the simulation.

To my knowledge there's not a lot I can do about high idle thrust, it's down to AJE itself and would best be flagged as a bug there. I agree that the high bypass turbofans tend to have way too high idle thrust, but it seems to be a feature of built in AJE engines as well as mine, so I think it's a problem in AJE itself.

If you can give me an idea of the which engines and air intakes are experiencing thrust falloff I can look in to what's causing that. :-)

 

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:59 AM, camlost2 said:

what kind of mods are you using regarding CFM56 and CF6? I'll look into it. I have an impression that the idle thrust is generally a bit high too.

All turbojets have the thrust falloff to an extent. Now I am starting to think it is something to do with the cone intake I am testing them with. Could this be the case?
But all the turbofans and turboprops with built in intakes also have the falloff that I think is too rapid to be realistic.

CF6 is stock and the CFM56 from Airplane plus

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@Kitspace @Citizen247

It seems the cfm56 in MoS_AJE-APP.cfg has some mistakes. 

the maxThrust and Area are way too high. and bird is not defined? I'm surprised this thing can generate any thrust. And what is bird?

	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
	{
		@name = ModuleEnginesAJEJet
		@maxThrust = 233.5
		
		Area = 1.55
		BPR = 4.24
		CPR = 30
		FPR = 1.7
		Mdes = 0.8
		Tdes = 250
		eta_c = 0.95
		eta_t = 0.98
		eta_n = 0.9
		FHV = 32000000
		bird = 1600
		TAB = 0
		exhaustMixer = False
		adjustableNozzle = False
		thrustUpperLimit = 280
		maxT3 = 900
		intakeMatchArea = True
		
		defaultTPR = 0.95
		drySFC = 0.357
		dryThrust = 86.7

Usually when you make a cfg the easy way is to search for it in the existing files in AJE. in the case of CFM56 there is one in AJE/B9.cfg that's been there for years. Really not necessary to rebuild a wheel. 

 if anyone wants to make a new engine it's much easier. use this standalone program to calibrate the parameters https://github.com/camlost2/AJEsolverTester (algorithm a bit outdated)

it includes a excel table of public data of hundreds of jet engines.

 

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@Citizen247

I haven't checked everything but it seems the F119 engine is also wrong. Likewise, there was a F119 config in AJE/B9.cfg

The mistake is that F119 should have a very high bird which makes it an engineering miracle. 

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The F119 has a known problem that is partially fixed in testing, but I'm having trouble fixing the effects. I'll take a look at the cfm56, I thought that was pulled from the b9 configs actually, but I might be wrong.

At the moment my testing install has corrupted so I'm sort of waiting for things to stabilise for 1.4, as I don't have a huge amount of time to setup multiple versions.

Edited by Citizen247

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There's a (very minor) update up:
Download

It fixes a few minor issues with syntax for ModuleManager and adds Camlost's new tailrotors in stock AJE to the Rotors category.

I'm still working on the known issues for some of the jet engines. There's some weirdness going on with them, where known working settings suddenly stop working. I'm not entirely sure what's going on. I'm looking at a different approach to fix it and hopefully (if that works) I'll be able to get it up in a week or so. I also want to get a few more engines configured, probably WW1 era and some new jet engines.

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I'm on KSP v1.5.1 with the latest MM and the patches from the previous post and found that something in the way MM handles its patching has affected MoS_AJE-KAX.cfg. In that config, the part name is being changed for KAXradialprop and KAXturboprop before new parts are added based on that part. Previously this wasn't an issue but now I was finding MM was not creating the parts until I moved the patch with the part name change after the addition of the parts. Alternately I suppose you could keep the current patch order but just change the +PART[name] to match what the original part name was changed to

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27 minutes ago, Drew Kerman said:

I'm on KSP v1.5.1 with the latest MM and the patches from the previous post and found that something in the way MM handles its patching has affected MoS_AJE-KAX.cfg. In that config, the part name is being changed for KAXradialprop and KAXturboprop before new parts are added based on that part. Previously this wasn't an issue but now I was finding MM was not creating the parts until I moved the patch with the part name change after the addition of the parts. Alternately I suppose you could keep the current patch order but just change the +PART[name] to match what the original part name was changed to

Thanks for letting me know. As soon as I get to updating to 1.5 I'll sort this issue. I've an idea of moving to a template system so hopefully that will fix the issue. But it'll be awhile before I have time to work on it. Life is pretty busy right now.

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9 minutes ago, Citizen247 said:

Thanks for letting me know. As soon as I get to updating to 1.5 I'll sort this issue. I've an idea of moving to a template system so hopefully that will fix the issue. But it'll be awhile before I have time to work on it. Life is pretty busy right now.

No worries, at least the fix as I detailed is easy for anyone that needs to do it in the meantime

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Hi All. I've not forgotten this! I'm currently working on a complete overhaul using templates for the parts to try and streamline everything and make it a bit more fault tolerant. It's turning out to be a bit more difficult than I thought though, so might take a little while.

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If Community Category Kit is installed three new categories will be added (Prop, Rotary and Jet) and AJE configured engines will be moved to their respective categories.

Oh Wow. I might get this for this ability alone... Moving the Props and Jet engines out of the Engine category (leaving only Rockets and SRBs) would be wonderful.

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hey... i have a book on german ww2 turbine engines and there's a metric ton of data even for unbuilt engines. would you be able to implement them?

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3 minutes ago, halowraith1 said:

hey... i have a book on german ww2 turbine engines and there's a metric ton of data even for unbuilt engines. would you be able to implement them?

I'm currently writing the engine config templates so if you can provide the information as per the op:

On 1/13/2018 at 12:29 AM, Citizen247 said:

 

If anyone has any engines they'd like to have added let me know. The more information you can give me, the more likely I am to add it, so please give me as much of the following as possible:

  • Engine specifications (Pistons: min/max RPM, Horsepower, Cylinder Compression, etc Jets: BPR, CPR, FPR, Max Thrust with and without afterburner, SFC, etc). The more information on the engine specifications the better, see config files to see the sorts of parameters required.
  • The Mod and part you think would be suitable as the base of the engine

I'll see what I can do.

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Here goes; there's a bunch.

 

HEINKEL

Spoiler

HeS 109-011A

Static Thrust: 1,300 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 1,040 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 500 kp

Max compressor speed: 11,000 rpm

Idle Speed: 6,000 rpm

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.31

Compressor Efficiency: 80%

Mass: ~950kg

Specific Weight: 0.73

 

JUNKERS

Spoiler

109-004 A

Static Thrust: 840 kp

Compressor Speed: 9,000 rpm

Mass: ~850 kg

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.4 / hr

Specific Weight: 1.01

Diameter: 0.96m

109-004 B

Static Thrust: 900 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 730 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 320 kp

Compressor Speed: 8,700 rpm

Mass: ~800kg

Pressure Ratio: 3.0 to 1, up to 3.5 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.38 / hr

Airflow: 21kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.85

Diameter: 0.8

109-004 C

Static Thrust: 1,000 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 775 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 380 kp

Compressor Speed: 8,700 rpm

Mass: ~800kg

Pressure Ratio: 3.0 to 1, up to 3.5 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.38 / hr

Airflow: 21kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.72

Diameter 0.755

109-004 H

Static Thrust: 1,800 kp

Compressor Speed: 6,600 rpm

Mass: ~1,200kg

Pressure Ratio: 5.0 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.2 /hr

Specific Weight: 0.67

109-012

Static Thrust: 2,780 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 2,200 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 1,100 kp

Compressor Speed: 5,300 rpm

Mass: ~2,000kg

Pressure Ratio: 6.0 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.2 / hr

Airflow: 50kg /s

Diameter: 1.063m

 

BMW

Spoiler

109-003 A-1

Static Thrust: 800 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 705 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 4,000m): 565 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 315 kp

Mass: ~570kg

Pressure Ratio: 3.1 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption (static): 1.33 to 1.35 /hr (petroleum)

Airflow: 19.3kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.711

Diameter: 0.690m

109-003 A-2

Static Thrust: 800 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 705 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 4,000m): 565 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 315 kp

Mass: ~610kg

Pressure Ratio: 3.1 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption (static): 1.40 to 1.47 /hr (J2 fuel)

Airflow: 19.3kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.756

Diameter: 0.690m

109-003 C

Static Thrust: 900 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 8,000m): 800 kp

Compressor Speed: 9,800 rpm

 

Mass: ~610kg

Pressure Ratio: 3.4 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.27 to 1.3 /hr (J2 fuel)

Airflow: 20kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.677

Diameter: 0.690m

109-003 D

Static Thrust: 1,150 kp

Compressor Speed: 10,000 rpm

Mass: ~620kg

Pressure Ratio: 4.95 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.1 /hr

Airflow: 25kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.560

Diameter: 0.7m

109-018 (production)

Static Thrust: 3,400 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 3,000 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 10,000m): 1,460 kp

Compressor Speed: 5,000 rpm

Mass: ~2,200kg

Pressure Ratio: 7.0 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption (static): 1.1 to 1.15 /hr (J2 fuel)

Airflow: 83kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.647

Diameter: 1.250m

P.3306

Static Thrust: 1,700 kp (1,820 kp possible for short periods)

Compressor Speed: 8,700 rpm

 

Mass: ~900kg

Pressure Ratio: 4.2 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.2 /hr

Airflow: 40kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.528

Diameter: 0.850m

 

DAIMLER

Spoiler

109-007

Static Thrust: 1,275 kp

Thrust (900km/h, sea level): 960 kp

Thrust (900km/h, 6,000m): 560 kp

Compressor Speed: 12,600 kp

Fan Speed: 6,200 rpm

Mass: ~1,000kg

Pressure Ratio: 8.0 to 1

Specific Fuel Consumption: 1.05 /hr (520km/h, 12,000m) 1.45 /hr (810km/h, sea lebel)

Airflow (compressor): 8.2kg /s

Airflow (fan): 19.9kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.78

Diameter: 1.625m

109-016

Static Thrust: 13,000 kp

Compressor Speed: 3,500 rpm

 

Mass: ~6,200kg

Airflow: 400kg /s

Specific Weight: 0.48

Diameter: 2.0m

 

That's what I have. Good luck with it, and thanks. :)

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On 12/30/2018 at 1:54 AM, BlackHat said:

Oh Wow. I might get this for this ability alone... Moving the Props and Jet engines out of the Engine category (leaving only Rockets and SRBs) would be wonderful.

Well I did get AJE and AJE_Extended and started using them. :) Love the ability to move the Props and Jets to their own category.

However, AJE and AJE_Extended require FAR also be installed (Its a dependency). Unfortunately  I cant design a plane or Jet that will stay in the air with FAR installed. After several hours and tweaking and crashing, I just removed FAR. :( Now my planes fly. (I did not think to check if I can disable some of the FAR setting in the mod setting screens)

BUT that also uninstalls AJE and AJE_Extended. (I use CKAN) I miss the ability to put plane/get engines in their own category.

 

Is there another mod that will create those categories?

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2 hours ago, BlackHat said:

Is there another mod that will create those categories?

Not that I know of. The patch that moves the engines in this requires AJE because it looks for aje engine modules. I'm not entirely sure how you'd do it with stock without manually assigning each engine a category. If I think of something I'll let you know.

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@BlackHat, the categories work just fine if you use CCK and tags. I have a couple of files that do that since I don't usually use AJE. I haven't distributed it because I'm using @Citizen247's art assets instead of making my own.

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23 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

@BlackHat, the categories work just fine if you use CCK and tags. I have a couple of files that do that since I don't usually use AJE. I haven't distributed it because I'm using @Citizen247's art assets instead of making my own.

Sounds like an alternative to look into. Thanks.

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