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[1.12] Stockalike Station Parts Redux (June 12, 2022)


Nertea
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On 8/30/2021 at 5:25 PM, Nertea said:

I will wait for the PR before releasing 2.0.4

Hoping to catch these before @JadeOfMaar's new TACLS patch is pulled into the 2.0.4 release, I believe there are some corrections/amendments to be made to SSPX-TACLS-01.cfg (first and second I think are corrections, third and fourth are suggestions):

1)  The conversionRate, amount & maxAmount for the greenhouses in lines 34 - 63 either need to refer to CrewCapacity (as per the dome greenhouse in lines 70 - 75), or to fixed figures other than 1 (at the moment these are all as effective as the small Cupola).  If fixed figures are prefered, I suggest: 

  • sspx-greenhouse-25-1      set to 2
  • sspx-greenhouse-375-1      set to 3
  • sspx-greenhouse-5-1      set to 5
  • sspx-dome-greenhouse-5-1      set to 3

2)  Reference to part MA-5B 'Evening'  Habitation Module in line 169 and sspx-habitation-1875-2 in line 173 should be replaced with PAS-6 'Star' Utility Module and sspx-utility-125-1 respectively.  The 1.875m size already features a utility module in this block of the patch so no need to add it to one of the rigid habs, whereas the 1.25m Star utility module is currently missed.

3) Is it difficult to change how the centrifuges are currently blanket selected with @PART[sspx*]:HAS[#CrewCapacity,@MODULE[ModuleDeployableCentrifuge], and instead apply the more "complex" resource convertors only to the bigger ones?  Some of the smaller centrifuges (Bagel, Doughnut, maybe Coriolis?) don't look big enough to have had the space to fit the extra hardware inside?!

4) The PXL-FI5H Aquaculture module produces Fertilizer regardless of whether Planetary Bases is installed, making its existence under TAC-LS rather irrelevant, let alone its storage of Minerals.  I don't know how feasible it is to amend how the Algae Farm convertor works, to allow it to produce Minerals?  This is into wish-list territory here...!

 

As mentioned above, I think only 1) and 2) are corrections that need to be made.  Thanks again to JadeofMaar for the brilliant response to our pleas for help on the TAC-LS stuff, and to Nertea for the epic effort that is making all these lovely parts in the first place!

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1 hour ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

Is this a record?

@Nerteahas recieved a second TOTM reward for this mod!

 

Haha, wow!

1 hour ago, eatU4myT said:

Hoping to catch these before @JadeOfMaar's new TACLS patch is pulled into the 2.0.4 release, I believe there are some corrections/amendments to be made to SSPX-TACLS-01.cfg (first and second I think are corrections, third and fourth are suggestions):

1)  The conversionRate, amount & maxAmount for the greenhouses in lines 34 - 63 either need to refer to CrewCapacity (as per the dome greenhouse in lines 70 - 75), or to fixed figures other than 1 (at the moment these are all as effective as the small Cupola).  If fixed figures are prefered, I suggest: 

  • sspx-greenhouse-25-1      set to 2
  • sspx-greenhouse-375-1      set to 3
  • sspx-greenhouse-5-1      set to 5
  • sspx-dome-greenhouse-5-1      set to 3

2)  Reference to part MA-5B 'Evening'  Habitation Module in line 169 and sspx-habitation-1875-2 in line 173 should be replaced with PAS-6 'Star' Utility Module and sspx-utility-125-1 respectively.  The 1.875m size already features a utility module in this block of the patch so no need to add it to one of the rigid habs, whereas the 1.25m Star utility module is currently missed.

3) Is it difficult to change how the centrifuges are currently blanket selected with @PART[sspx*]:HAS[#CrewCapacity,@MODULE[ModuleDeployableCentrifuge], and instead apply the more "complex" resource convertors only to the bigger ones?  Some of the smaller centrifuges (Bagel, Doughnut, maybe Coriolis?) don't look big enough to have had the space to fit the extra hardware inside?!

4) The PXL-FI5H Aquaculture module produces Fertilizer regardless of whether Planetary Bases is installed, making its existence under TAC-LS rather irrelevant, let alone its storage of Minerals.  I don't know how feasible it is to amend how the Algae Farm convertor works, to allow it to produce Minerals?  This is into wish-list territory here...!

 

As mentioned above, I think only 1) and 2) are corrections that need to be made.  Thanks again to JadeofMaar for the brilliant response to our pleas for help on the TAC-LS stuff, and to Nertea for the epic effort that is making all these lovely parts in the first place!

I haven't even seen a PR so you probably are safe, not happening yet.

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5 hours ago, eatU4myT said:

I believe there are some corrections/amendments to be made to SSPX-TACLS-01.cfg (first and second I think are corrections, third and fourth are suggestions):

I've updated the configs.

  1. Fixed. I'm using Fixed values for these. (Having them all set to 1 was merely placeholder and waiting on feedback.)
    • sspx-greenhouse-25-1       rate = 2.1, resources = 2x
    • sspx-greenhouse-375-1       rate = 3.1, resources = 3x
    • sspx-greenhouse-5-1       rate = 5.2, resources = 5x
    • sspx-dome-greenhouse-5-1       rate = 3.1, resources = 5x
       
  2. Fixed. The 1.25m and 1.875m utilities are in there but now that I look at it, there's no 2.5m part in this selection. Unfortunately there's only 1 rigid 2.5m hab. The other 2 are inflatable habs then there's a centrifuge. I can't say any 2.5m part can apply here.
     
  3. It's easy enough. I can filter by a minimum number of deployed crew capacity (the 3.75m and 5m ones have upwards of 10 crew, and I've done this). I can also filter by the fact that these sizes have "expandable" and not "inflatable" in their names. Every other/smaller centrifuge is inflatable.
     
  4. It's easy enough to change the converter(s). Do I simply add the Mineral Siphon converter? Or am I to add another means of producing Minerals? The aquaculture setup now contains (pardon me if I missed something) the Mineral Siphon, the Algae Farm (Fertilizer production) and the 2 water processors.
5 hours ago, eatU4myT said:

Thanks again to JadeofMaar for the brilliant response to our pleas for help on the TAC-LS stuff,

You're welcome. Small note: I have not actually play-tested to ensure that these converters have net production for the crew in them, nor the greenhouse balancing vs KPBS. I suspect the greenhouses may be quite visibly underpowered vs KPBS. (Let me know if to disregard this balancing issue. I can assume that users of SSPX and KPBS could otherwise find KPBS' own greenhouse(s) to be OP.)

Edited by JadeOfMaar
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@CaelReader the central cores all self land the module are dropped in by Drop Ship,  the rover  is used to push them around then the docking ports take over and pull them together. It takes a bit of finessing but i make sure i use F5 alot and its doable if your patient

This is the drop ship

RiQw2bl.png

bXXDLGU.png

 

Edited by Virtualgenius
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5 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I can't say any 2.5m part can apply here.

Thanks for the updates as described above.  Re: a utility module in he 2.5m size, I think probably the "RPD-12 Itinerant Service Compartment"  is the one that fits here theme-wise, but I think its a part added by Near Future Spacecraft, rather than SSPXr, so that probably puts it out of reach of this patch...

Re: the Aquaculture module, rather than add the Mineral Siphon convertor, I was wondering if there was a way to amend the Algae Farm convertor so that it produces Minerals instead of Fertilizer is KPBS is not installed?  As I mentioned, this is wish-list stuff, so no problem if not!

Thanks

 

 

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@eatU4myT You're welcome. The RPD-12 is from NF Spacecraft, I'm sure. In any case, yes, it's out of reach...

Having the Algae Farm produce Minerals can be done but I don't easily accept the idea of it (this can be dismissed as my not knowing better about making food from algae). I assume the algae itself is dehydrated and processed by some means in order to attain it? In which case, I don't mind setting that up?

Nobody has yet come to provide counter-suggestions or argue against what you wish for the TAC configs so you'll have your wishlist.

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Hi folks,

The day job has been crazy the last few weeks, but I've found some time to work on the USI patch, and have most of the balance changes planned out now.  For the smaller parts I couldn't justify the multiple bay system, so they are getting rather low static values.  They are a good start for making quick trips in the Kerbin SOI, but true "Habitation" doesn't really begin until 2.5m parts.

@Nertea  one  of the things I noticed is that SDV-X Cronus seems to be put in the wrong spot in the community tech tree (maybe it's right for the base game, but it's in the wrong path and too early for CTT).  I don't see it mentioned in the CTT patch at all so it looks like an oversight.  As by far the largest habitation part, I think it makes sense in Advanced Colonization.  Just looking at it in comparison to the other parts, it looks like it has 18 bays around the centrifuge ring (actually 12 of those are the size of shanties - 2 bays, but let's not get ridiculous here). plus 3 hostels (3 bays each) worth of living space in the core.  27 bays weigh in at 60 tons by MKS math (with the centrifuge mass penalty) and provide 10 years of habitation to its 16 kerbals all by itself, making it a great part for low part count, long-term expedition ships, and looks a heck of a lot better than strapping atlas kerbitat domes to the ship to reach the same effect.  I'll probably make these 9 6-ton bays just so you don't have to click as much to get it set up, but still have enough versatility to balance it with the other parts on your ship.

Other notable parts are the PPF-A Dirigible.  This 18 kerbal economy module will support its larger crew for almost 2 years  at 18 tons.  The SDV-2 Atlas also weighs the same amount, but due to its smaller size and rigid construction, can support its 14 kerbals for roughly the same amount of time.  Inflatables get a 25% mass discount, but lose the ability to pack in recyclers (they don't have the structure to support heavy machinery).  Centrifuges have a 10% mass penalty to cover the motor used to spin them up, and the portion of their volume that seems to be taken by the motor is not included when determining the number of bays they should have.  The rigid central core of the Pilgrim, Mercury, and Cronus regains the ability to hold recyclers though.

On the Agriculture side, I wanted to avoid modding the mass in case you are not playing with MKS.  So,  the PXL-F15H gets a boost due to its huge mass.  Sporting 4 bays (technically it has the mass for 5, but water is heavy), it can produce up to 211 Supplies per day (enough to feed over 100 kerbals with a good recycler setup) and uniquely can be equipped with Hab-Common with a bonus to the multiplier to represent the morale and health benefits of a more varied diet.  Even though the Demeter weighs less than the PXL-F15H, it gets the full 5 bays, to represent its efficiency and size - quantity over quality loses the hab-common - and to give it a benefit for its deeper place in the tech tree.  It can produce 264 supplies per day.  All agriculture modules can be equipped with volume or effeciency recyclers (but not purifiers - you don't purify next to your poop and fertilizer processing) to represent the ability to grow inedible plants that are excellent CO2->Oxygen producers (e.g. algae), except the G4RD3N, which can only support High Volume Recycling at a lower capacity.  It can still replace 5 RT-500s if you choose that bay.

Right now this is all in a spreadsheet.  I'll get them entered into the patch files hopefully this weekend, create a pull request for @Nertea and post the raw files if anyone wants to test with me.  I'll need the most help from anyone who usually plays USI-LS without MKS, and with testing at various stages of career mode to make sure the SSPX parts are balanced at all stages.

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Ok, I've completed the patch, and playtested it a bit.  Turned out my original method for calculating the multipliers made them a little overboard when you started combining them, so I had to scale them back a bit, but now it seems like I can find an MKS analog (usually 2 to 3 parts to 1) that has similar habitation at roughly the same mass as the SSPX parts now, so I'm calling that balanced.  I haven't tested every part, so if something seems out of wack to you, let me know and I'll adjust it.

I've created the pull request to @Nerteas github (dev branch, hope that was right).  If you want to playtest it yourself while waiting for Nertea to update, you can replace your GameData\StationPartsExpansionRedux\Patches\SSPXR-USILS.cfg file with the one found here:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/post-kerbin-mining-corporation/StationPartsExpansionRedux/dev/GameData/StationPartsExpansionRedux/Patches/SSPXR-USILS.cfg

I also moved the Cronus to Advanced Colonization.  If you want to see that, add this to the bottom of SSPXR-CTT.cfg in the same folder:

// 5m Centrifuge
@PART[sspx-expandable-centrifuge-5-1]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:FOR[StationPartsExpansionRedux]
{
    @TechRequired = advColonization
}

Let me know what you think.

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So there are currently two conflicting pull requests for updating the USI-LS patch. I've been playing with the updated patch from@danfarnsy and it seems to be working well except that the PAS-G 'G4RD3N' Hydroponics Cupola is ridiculously overpowered, probably a misplaced decimal point. I just looked at the patch from @ProgorMatic and I see its completely missing the SDV-G1 'Tholos' Geodesic Dome. The changes in part mass and removal of localisations are a bit concerning.

Just an outside observer here but I don't think either one is ready as is. Sorry I don't have more to say about the balance, I don't know enough about it yet.

Edited by Arrowmaster
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Yeah I will let @ProgorMatic and @danfarnsy work this out. Please let me know when one or the other is ready to merge. 

1 hour ago, Arrowmaster said:

I just looked at the patch from @ProgorMatic and I see its completely missing the SDV-G1 'Tholos' Geodesic Dome

I mean that is probably because it is the completely empty dome so maybe not relevant?

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Yeah,the omission of the Tholos was intentional since its basically a cargo bay with nothing in it.

Mass changes are also intentional, as the alternatives were to either have parts with  completely irrelevant habitation values or have SSPX parts be massively overpowered against comparable MKS parts.  In MKS, habitation modules are quite heavy (another alternative would be to greatly reduce crew capacity, but I thought the high capacity, heavy parts would give SSPX a stronger niche in the life support mini-game).

Removal of localizations also follow MKS, so that I can differentiate between Hab-Common and Hab-Quarters modules, and the HV, HE, and Purifier variants of recyclers.  I could reintroduce localizations, but could only provide en-US  translations.  If anyone wants to provide other languages, let me know.

@danfarnsy your pull request comments were "I roughly made up some numbers that could be consistent with the inconsistent numbers for USILS parts. This update has the advantage of existing, whereas better updates do not."  Can I take that to mean you intended your patch to be a stopgap until mine was available, or did you have some concepts that I need to take a look at?

Edited by ProgorMatic
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2 hours ago, ProgorMatic said:

Yeah,the omission of the Tholos was intentional since its basically a cargo bay with nothing in it.

Ah ok. I haven't use the Tholos yet but just noticed it was not in your patch but was in danfarnsy's.

I'll test out your changes soon and be happy to give any feedback I can.

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3 minutes ago, Krzeszny said:

Is the Metal Surfaces addon still relevant? It seems to be out of date looking at the version number (1.4 vs 2.0) and it isn't mentioned in the OP

I think it is included by default now so you don't need to install the addon.

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On 9/7/2021 at 4:40 AM, ProgorMatic said:

Yeah,the omission of the Tholos was intentional since its basically a cargo bay with nothing in it.

Mass changes are also intentional, as the alternatives were to either have parts with  completely irrelevant habitation values or have SSPX parts be massively overpowered against comparable MKS parts.  In MKS, habitation modules are quite heavy (another alternative would be to greatly reduce crew capacity, but I thought the high capacity, heavy parts would give SSPX a stronger niche in the life support mini-game).

Removal of localizations also follow MKS, so that I can differentiate between Hab-Common and Hab-Quarters modules, and the HV, HE, and Purifier variants of recyclers.  I could reintroduce localizations, but could only provide en-US  translations.  If anyone wants to provide other languages, let me know.

@danfarnsy your pull request comments were "I roughly made up some numbers that could be consistent with the inconsistent numbers for USILS parts. This update has the advantage of existing, whereas better updates do not."  Can I take that to mean you intended your patch to be a stopgap until mine was available, or did you have some concepts that I need to take a look at?

@ProgorMatic I didn't realize you were working on a patch. It seems like you're putting more thought into it than I did, so I'll defer to your patch. (edit, see reply further down the thread) However, I think you should still add something for Tholos (copy and modify my entry, if you like), since it's sensible that it adds some habitation multiplier like any cupola module. A ship with a dome is easier to live in than one without, right?

I haven't reviewed your patch (edit, now have reviewed, see further in the thread), but one thing I tried to keep in mind is that the 5m parts may have significantly more volume than their 3.75m counterparts, often 4x as much, but rarely are they more than about 50% more mass. So, my guideline was to keep in mind relative performance per mass and crew capacity, and give a slight edge to the 5m part. But then I just made up a number that sounded okay that fit those boundaries. If you're already keeping performance per mass in mind, that's great, and I have nothing more to add.

As for the PAS-G 'G4RD3N', @Arrowmaster it is three times heavier than the similar part, USILS_Greenhouse_MiniCupola,  from USILS and about double the output. So it is less overpowered than what USI-LS includes to boot. Like I said, the numbers for most things were already inconsistent, so I was mostly looking at existing similar things and going from there. Abandon consistency, all ye who enter here.

Edit:

2 hours ago, danfarnsy said:

As for the PAS-G 'G4RD3N', @Arrowmaster it is three times heavier than the similar part, USILS_Greenhouse_MiniCupola,  from USILS and about double the output. So it is less overpowered than what USI-LS includes to boot. Like I said, the numbers for most things were already inconsistent, so I was mostly looking at existing similar things and going from there. Abandon consistency, all ye who enter here.

Crap, no, I did miss a decimal place!

I just updated my pull request, if you want to keep playing with it. That cupola is now more sensible.

 

Edited by danfarnsy
reviewed patch
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44 minutes ago, danfarnsy said:

Crap, no, I did miss a decimal place!

I just updated my pull request, if you want to keep playing with it. That cupola is now more sensible.

HAHA I knew it. At 75 supplies per day that was probably one of the most overpowered greenhouses I had.

Since I didn't have any manned missions running I went ahead and switched over to testing @ProgorMatic's patch and so far so good. I built a lab that will keep 2 kerbals fed and happy for almost 3 years and sent it off to Minmus. I did notice an oddity of having Governor adjustments on some parts that didn't seem to have any effect when changed but that is probably an issue from USI-LS and not the patch itself. I'll try to test more tonight.

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2 hours ago, danfarnsy said:

@ProgorMatic  so I'll defer to your patch...

...I haven't reviewed your patch...

Whoa, okay, so now I have reviewed @ProgorMatic's patch. This is a huge departure and overhaul from what was previously here, adjusting part masses to simple integer tons, adding recyclers to habs, flattening habs categories into the same 1-ton, 2-ton hab, and 4-ton options across the variety. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it is aggressive in how it touches everything. It will definitely change ships in flight that are using the previously existing patch, which I left untouched, only adjusting the new parts to be similar to the old parts.

I think we ought to get feedback from other users as to what they want. Do you want a patch that wholly brings SSPXR up to the way MKS habs operate? Or do you want an extension of the previous patch that leaves the old things in place and only brings new parts in line with them? I'd prefer my option, but I'm just a creature of habit. ProgorMatic's patch is definitely streamlined and easy for planning missions. There are aspects of it I like. Overall, I'm uncomfortable with it. Sorry to change my answer to you so quickly, but I didn't realize you were essentially providing an entirely new patch instead of a simple update to accommodate the new parts. But I'm just one voice in the crowd. Can others please reply and say what you'd prefer? Maybe test them both out?

Edit: Also just want to add an apology to ProgorMatic for not seeing that you'd posted a week before I did that you were looking at adding a USILS patch. Whatever concerns I have with it, it would have been more productive to discuss them back when you were very clear about how you were planning to overhaul things.

Edited by danfarnsy
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