kevnuke

Console sub-forum

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I was thinking with all of the PC versions and the outdated advice associated with the older versions that may not be accurate for console version 1.00 there should be a sub-forum just for console Q&A. I search for info about some topics and all I can find are threads that are years old from several major versions previous to what the console edition is based on. Console players wouldn't have to wonder if the advice they're receiving is current or not.

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Anything that's more than a year old is out of date. Any advice that applies to the current version should also apply to consoles, pretty much.

 

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2 hours ago, bewing said:

Anything that's more than a year old is out of date. Any advice that applies to the current version should also apply to consoles, pretty much.

 

My game crashes at least once per day (usually more) from random things, like clicking a menu button or changing views, etc. Does yours?

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2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

My game crashes at least once per day (usually more) from random things, like clicking a menu button or changing views, etc. Does yours?

If it's tech support you seek, there already is a console subforum:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/forum/81-technical-support-playstation-4-xbox-one/

If it's gameplay questions you have, then in my opinion, @bewing's point stands. You may ostensibly be one patch behind, but that patch added stuff like localization that did not affect gameplay itself. All gameplay advice given for 1.3.x is equally valid for 1.2.x.

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50 minutes ago, Streetwind said:

If it's tech support you seek, there already is a console subforum:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/forum/81-technical-support-playstation-4-xbox-one/

If it's gameplay questions you have, then in my opinion, @bewing's point stands. You may ostensibly be one patch behind, but that patch added stuff like localization that did not affect gameplay itself. All gameplay advice given for 1.3.x is equally valid for 1.2.x.

I'm not stupid or blind. That sub-forum is on the same list as this one was. If I wanted tech support I'm sure I could find it if I gathered all of the skills and experience I've gotten from both of my computer science degrees and programming, just barely.

I wasn't asking for opinions from average people, I was hoping a moderator or someone who actually had the ability to create a sub-forum would see my suggestion. And it isn't just "ostensibly one patch behind." The code for console and even between consoles has to be implemented differently even for the same functionality as you get on PC, which is why they needed help to do it. It was a complete rewrite. So no, it's not just PC version 1.2.2 copied and pasted onto console like most of you would think. Which is why I pointed out that my game is crashing regularly and yours probably isn't, and didn't even on the version I'm playing. Something that might be fixed for you in that version might not be on console and our code could, and from what I've seen and heard, does, have bugs for 1.2.2 that you didn't even see.

Frankly, I don't see where people who aren't console players even think they're entitled to an opinion about a separate sub-forum for console. It doesn't affect you, it affects us. I'd rather not wade through forums where 99% of it isn't relevant to me just to find what I'm looking for, and neither would you. The whole point of forums and sub-forums is to organize information so that people who need it can find it easily. Otherwise, why have sub-forums at all?

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...Whoa. o_O Perhaps it's not a subforum that you really need right now, but rather a punching bag or some other form of safe aggression relief.

I could say quite a few things about quite a few of your arguments, but you've made it clear that you have no intention to have a discussion with me or other "average people". So I'm going to oblige you and step away from this thread. I wish you good luck in your endeavour to find someone to talk to who you don't consider beneath you.

Nevermind that you already got a reply from Squad staff... :rolleyes:

Edited by Streetwind

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Yup! Which is why I couldn't figure out why you felt the need to add your opinion when someone more qualified already replied.

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2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

Frankly, I don't see where people who aren't console players even think they're entitled to an opinion about a separate sub-forum for console. It doesn't affect you, it affects us. I'd rather not wade through forums where 99% of it isn't relevant to me just to find what I'm looking for, and neither would you. The whole point of forums and sub-forums is to organize information so that people who need it can find it easily. Otherwise, why have sub-forums at all?

Consoles have their own tech support forum, everything else is completely interchangeable. If being a "version" behind is what concerns you, you should be aware that LOT'S of PC players are a version behind or even several versions behind due to mods they won't give up, or long running save games. They don't need a forum for every version of the game, so neither do you right? If you are really worried about getting misinformation; just specify you are playing on console in your post.

(Also, you won't get terribly far here without being polite. This isn't the Steam forums.)

2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

Yup! Which is why I couldn't figure out why you felt the need to add your opinion when someone more qualified already replied.

@Streetwind has 6k+ posts here. I'd say he's pretty qualified to do whatever. He also gave you a good response to your question and was polite about it.

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket

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18 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

 

@Streetwind has 6k+ posts here. I'd say he's pretty qualified to do whatever. He also gave you a good response to your question and was polite about it.

Signed.

 

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Moving to Kerbal Network, since this is about the forums rather than about KSP itself.

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Streetwind and RocketInMyPocket are exactly right. The core code for consoles is mostly unchanged from 1.2.2 on PC. Blitworks added thousands of console controller "hooks". Sometimes the hooks interfere with the core logic, but they aren't supposed to. It was a nearly complete rewrite of the FT console controller hook scheme, not of the core game. Except for specific button layouts, and some differences in the debug menu, the ultimate goal would be for the PC and console version to work identically.

There were bugs in core version 1.2.2, and those will also be in the console version. There are still some extra bugs from the console port, but many of those will be addressed in the upcoming bugfix patch. But really, the moderators would probably be the best ones to decide if there would be any benefit for console players to have a special forum for discussions outside tech support.

 

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2 hours ago, bewing said:

Streetwind and RocketInMyPocket are exactly right. The core code for consoles is mostly unchanged from 1.2.2 on PC. Blitworks added thousands of console controller "hooks". Sometimes the hooks interfere with the core logic, but they aren't supposed to. It was a nearly complete rewrite of the FT console controller hook scheme, not of the core game. Except for specific button layouts, and some differences in the debug menu, the ultimate goal would be for the PC and console version to work identically.

There were bugs in core version 1.2.2, and those will also be in the console version. There are still some extra bugs from the console port, but many of those will be addressed in the upcoming bugfix patch. But really, the moderators would probably be the best ones to decide if there would be any benefit for console players to have a special forum for discussions outside tech support.

 

That's what I was trying to say from the beginning. Any time you change the layer connecting the core code to the end user you get a different scenario. New quirks pop up from the core code, the console firmware, the interaction between the two, and unexpected user actions.

Thanks for the update news btw.

5 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

@Streetwind has 6k+ posts here. I'd say he's pretty qualified to do whatever. He also gave you a good response to your question and was polite about it.

Do his 6k posts make him a moderator, or Squad staff? Hmm didn't think so..

Anyway the topic of this post wasn't about tech support. I don't know why people keep pointing me to the console tech support sub-forum. I only brought up the crashes to point out that the console and PC versions are not the same game on a different system and therefore should have separate discussion forums. You'd think the PC users wouldn't want questions that are for console cluttering up the main forums, geez. Sue me for wanting to keep things organized.

 

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7 minutes ago, kevnuke said:

the console and PC versions are not the same game on a different system

Can you name three aspects of gameplay that are supposed to be different between these two "not the same" games, excluding platform-specific bugs and glitches?

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4 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Can you name three aspects of gameplay that are supposed to be different between these two "not the same" games, excluding platform-specific bugs and glitches?

Nope. The OP wasn't directed at you.

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Can you name three aspects of gameplay that are supposed to be different between these two "not the same" games, excluding platform-specific bugs and glitches?

EDIT: (It's a perfectly valid question and a good answer would help us understand why a specific console subforum would be a good idea. Try not to be so dismissive of people's questions - they are coming from valued members of our community who know a great deal about how things work here)

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1 minute ago, Deddly said:

Can you name three aspects of gameplay that are supposed to be different between these two "not the same" games, excluding platform-specific bugs and glitches?

Nor will I entertain forum politics. I believe the Squad staff who replied already answered how they are different and why things come up on one system and not another.

Maybe people who have no idea what a console controller hook even means should refrain from commenting about things they know nothing about. Like I do when I see people talking about a subject I don't know anything about. Asking to learn more about something is one thing, but having a firm opinion about something you don't understand is foolish.

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OK everyone, let's take a step back a moment and slow down. There's no need to get personal so let's let that go now.

@kevnuke, there is nothing wrong with your suggestion. It's a perfectly valid one, but please remember that this is a public message board and it's only reasonable to expect that suggesting a change that affects the community is going to attract comments from others in the community. A healthy discussion is a great thing and can help all parties involved see the positive and negative aspects of a suggestion and thereafter develop an informed opinion one way or the other. I reposted HebaruSan's question because you dismissed it just because he isn't a moderator, but I had the same question. This has nothing to do with "forum politics". You asked for the moderators to respond... well, moderators are also average users, but my question to you is:

What aspects of gameplay are different in the console release?

As the person suggesting this change, don't you think it's in your interest to win over people who don't agree with you rather than dismiss them out of hand?

EDIT: I removed a few posts because it was getting unnecessarily personal.

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Well I had my post typed and my phone decided to erase the entire thing. I'll reply when I get on my laptop later.

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2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

You'd think the PC users wouldn't want questions that are for console cluttering up the main forums...

 

I'm PC user. I'm also someone that answered many gameplay questions from console users.

I never considered any of those question "cluttering up the main forums". Just fellow players that I was able to help.

That is the point I think you are missing there. There are not enough Squad staff, moderators or even experienced console players to answer all the questions from console players. Meanwhile the help of experienced PC players is available. What is the advantage of Putting the questions where less answers are available?

 

 

3 hours ago, kevnuke said:

I believe the Squad staff who replied already answered how they are different and why things come up on one system and not another.

Which don't mean that PC user will not know about those differences and take it in consideration when answering question from console users. In any case, let's see again what he said:

18 hours ago, bewing said:

 Any advice that applies to the current version should also apply to consoles, pretty much.

And, sorry @bewing , I have a nitpick:

For a PC user I may often solve his issue with a mod suggestion or sending a craft file. Those are option that I don't have when is a  console user asking for help. But then again is more likely to be 'inaccurate'  because the person asking is using some mod that I didn't considered.

 

 

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A bit heated in here.

It is occasionally difficult to find console specific related information on these forums. I'm using a PS4 and I've never played KSP on a PC. I frequently find answers to my questions about builds or game play that I cannot replicate on a console. Hold "control S"  or some other keyboard command advice. The somewhat complex Console control interface, can make relatively "simple" missions very complex as far as getting tasks managed in time.

The games play very differently, I'd refer you to Scott Manleys youtube video "KSP on PS4" discussing this.

I don't know if the Console version of Kerbal Space Program Enhanced Edition will be getting a patch, an update, or have some DLC anytime soon, but it seems clear that the PC and console editions have some different issues.

 

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That's some good reasoning there, @GrouchyDevotee. Do you feel that a separate Gameplay Questions and Tutorials section would solve that better than just asking the question again in the regular subforum? Or do you think it would segregate the community so that the PC/console users rarely interact with each other? Would having a separate section just for consoles make console users miss out on great advice from experienced players, or would the benefits outweigh the disadvantages? 

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6 hours ago, Deddly said:

That's some good reasoning there, @GrouchyDevotee. Do you feel that a separate Gameplay Questions and Tutorials section would solve that better than just asking the question again in the regular subforum? Or do you think it would segregate the community so that the PC/console users rarely interact with each other? Would having a separate section just for consoles make console users miss out on great advice from experienced players, or would the benefits outweigh the disadvantages? 

I'd like to think that all the Kerbal sisters and brothers from all the different Launch Pads across the vast inter-webs, can come together and work in harmony, sharing tips, workarounds, and snacks.

I do think there should be a specific Gameplay questions and tutorial section for newly recruited Console Kerbalnaughts. Particularly so in light of some of the recent changes to the control schemes.

Once new Kerbals are able to properly and  effectively 'monkey paw' these controls, then the games appear to play out somewhat similarly.

Perhaps just having a 'Console tutorials' section,  'Console Controls Issues' and a 'Console Bugs section' would be enough.

The DEV team would know the similarities between the platforms far better than I would.

Cheers!

 

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On 2/7/2018 at 6:32 PM, GrouchyDevotee said:

It is occasionally difficult to find console specific related information on these forums. I'm using a PS4 and I've never played KSP on a PC. I frequently find answers to my questions about builds or game play that I cannot replicate on a console. Hold "control S"  or some other keyboard command advice. The somewhat complex Console control interface, can make relatively "simple" missions very complex as far as getting tasks managed in time.

I think @GrouchyDevotee pretty much hit the nail on the head. Maybe I should just let him talk. HA!

I apologize for being so salty a couple of days ago. Spending several hours trying to get a 5 ton payload into orbit can do that to ya.

It's not just that the controls are complex and take several days to remember well enough to use on the fly during missions right when they're needed. I might be wrong about this but aren't PC players able to remap their keys? I've been using the radial preset because that's what was explained in the tutorials. Just using RCS as an example ROT[ation] mode is pretty straightforward if you've ever played a flight sim, left joystick to control pitch and roll, left/right trigger to yaw, but LIN[ear] mode is backwards on two axis. Right/left trigger are typically used to accelerate and decelerate respectively in almost any game, they are reversed in KSP. As is the up/down control (positive/negative Z axis, aka. normal/antinormal). Pushing up on the joystick pushes you down and vice versa. I was thinking, best case scenario, a squad staff would get a hold of me or someone else with a lot of console experience to remap the buttons. Get rid of switching between LIN and ROT altogether, which would free up X for switching between them. Leave the ROT controls on the left joystick and triggers, and change LIN controls to use the D-pad for directions and X/square for accelerate/decelerate in RCS (the other two buttons typically used for that on console games). Jesus and that's just RCS!

We have no "slow down the cursor" button while adjusting the vectors on a manuever node. The button we hold to do this with the pointer in cursor mode is the same button that changes which vector we're adjusting while editing a manuever node.

I'll just briefly mention that the game frequently lags/hiccups to the point where it stops for several seconds and typically causes button presses to be missed. Very frustrating when trying to switch to cursor mode, or a decoupling stage for example.

Also, I just finished assembling the core sections of my first space station in orbit around Kerbin. Then I got to thinking. How do I Alt+Right Click on tanks to transfer fuel? I guess I'll find out when I try it later (hopefully).

On 2/6/2018 at 3:28 PM, Spricigo said:

I'm PC user. I'm also someone that answered many gameplay questions from console users.

I never considered any of those question "cluttering up the main forums". Just fellow players that I was able to help.

I agree, I wouldn't either. Let me clarify. You see someone post a problem with not being able to get something to work. They explain what they've already tried, even posted video, and you can't see anything obvious that would cause you to suspect that they aren't doing it the way they should. You then spend several hours trying to recreate the scenario to figure out why it's working for you and not them (I've seen examples of people doing this). You're sure that you're trying it on the same version as them, but then, on a whim, you look at the OP again, and notice that it's tagged "console" "ps4" or "xboxone." Something you may have realized much sooner if you read it in a "console" sub.

 

On 2/6/2018 at 3:28 PM, Spricigo said:

And, sorry @bewing , I have a nitpick:

For a PC user I may often solve his issue with a mod suggestion or sending a craft file. Those are option that I don't have when is a  console user asking for help. But then again is more likely to be 'inaccurate'  because the person asking is using some mod that I didn't considered.

100% correct. Aside from the debug menu, we're all hands-on/manual all the time. No automation for us..yet. I was hoping there were parts later in the tech tree that gave probe cores some kind of autopilot. Nothing as advanced as "make your way to Duna fully autonomously from the launchpad, taking the most efficient route," but more like you can preprogram commands via a fully upgraded Tracking Station/Mission Control (make one of the less useful facilities more useful) or a remote pilot and have them execute at a certain time/place in their flight, such as manuever nodes, running science experiments, etc. Kinda like Custom Action Groups that the probe can execute automatically later (like they do in real life). I mean, seriously, one of the later research areas is literally named "Automation". If that doesn't suggest that you should be getting a part that enables autopilot, I don't know what does.

Anyway, that was way longer than I planned, and i forgot some of the things I was going to say last time after my phone erased it. I'll probably remember them later and add on to this some other time. Thanks for reading and happy exploring fellow Kerbalnauts.

Edited by kevnuke
typos, proofreading

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2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

... You're sure that you're trying it on the same version as them, but then, on a whim, you look at the OP again, and notice that it's tagged "console" "ps4" or "xboxone." Something you may have realized much sooner if you read it in a "console" sub.

Well, i have a few similar stories, but mine end with: 

  • then OP tell he is using a  mod that change gameplay
  • then OP tell he is still in version 1.0.5
  • then you notice an outdated guide\tutorial was mentioned

Except that is not the end. Just when another step towards the solution.

 

In any case, the problem is not the particular difference. Rather is the flawed communication. And that can only be solved with people being more careful and patient, and asking instead of making assumptions. 

 

2 hours ago, kevnuke said:

Aside from the debug menu, we're all hands-on/manual all the time.

What can I say? That is the stock game, for console and for PC. And while, personally , I have a few mods that make my life easier I can still comprehend and relate with the situation of stock players. And I also have eniugh experience with hands-on/manual control to offer my help.

I can only guess but my supposition is that SQUAD would like to have modding and craft sharing ( with the upcoming DLC, mission sharing too) available for consoles, but that don't happens for technical and contractual reasons. So unfortunately console players miss that imoportant aspect of KSP.

 

Anyway, at least at the moment, I think a console Q&A subforum brings more onus than bonus. OTOH a "usefull info for console" thread in the tutorial subforum may be a good way to start to make help more acessible for console player.

 

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This is another reason the controls for console need to be given further consideration.

This just happened to be posted exactly 3 years ago yesterday. I spent an entire afternoon and evening designing a rover to gather the remaining surface science on Mun. Over 6 hours later (real life time) MunRover and the ship that transported her there are finally on the South Pole and ready to get down to business.

I push forward on the left joystick to accelerate aaand BANG!! she takes a nosedive and destroys a part on the front of the rover. I load the quicksave I had just done and try again, going slower this time. Same result, but in slow motion. After reading the thread above and a few others about motorized wheel settings and rover design, I switch the reaction wheels to SAS only and try again. This time it nearly does a backflip. The body is above the CoM and the fastest wheels in the game are below it in low gravity, you do the math.

The bigger issue, however, is something another player said in that thread. PC players are presumably able to set separate controls for their wheels (translational motion) and flight controls (rotational motion). The only thing we get close to that on console is a combination of setting all of the Reaction Wheels on the ship to SAS only but then you run the risk of not being about to correct your orientation midair if you take even a small jump to fast. KSP isn't a car racing game, but seriously, why doesn't the game know when you're using tires and switch to some kind of ground vehicle mode? The effort it takes just to get my rover to stop trying to pitch and roll is a little ridiculous. Something as simple as gas, brakes, and steering isn't a lot to ask for.

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