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KSP Interstellar Extended Support Thread


FreeThinker

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I did some more tests.

It has really big range!

 

Can universal beam producer produce xrays too?

Also wavelengths should get prefixes.

 

45 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Exactly when does this happen with what parts?

Well I screenshotted it, I guess its just display bug, as it works normally in game (xray producer part).

 

Longest wavelength is 25 mm and shortest is 10 pm

That is 9 orders of magnitude!

So if aperture and spotsize is constant, and max range (without suffering spotsize losses) for longest microwave is lets say 1000 km, then xray can travel for 1000 000 milion km without spreading out too much.

Microwave generation has 90% energy efficiency and xray has 20% of energy conversion efficiency at ends of range

I guess then microwave is useful for launches, infrared for low orbit, visible/uv for whole moon system and xray for whole solar system.

 

 

Edited by raxo2222
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Negative Masses:

Inline Wrapped Phased Array with scale over 3.75m

Phased Array Transciver (Top) with scale over 3.75m

Phased Array Transciver (Deployable) with scale over 3.75m

Phased Array Transciver (Inline) with scale over 3.75m

Phased Array Transciver (Pivoted) with scale over 3.75m

Phased Array Transciver (Sphere) with scale over 3.75m

Diode Beamed Power Laser with scale over 3.75m

Shielded Multi Wavelength Diode Laser Transmitter with scale over 3.75m

X-ray Free Electron Laser Transmitter with scale over 3.75m

Well, actually mass becomes negative only with 5m parts, but 3.75 ones are way lighter than 2.5 

After some more tests looks like they have negative masses displayed only in VAB/SPH, but in flight masses become correct.

 

Diode Laser Array (Beam Producer)

Free Electron Laser (Universal Beam Producer) 

Microwave Transducer DT-MW-TD-32x 

have no mass updating in VAB/SPH, but have proper masses after launch.

 

Electrostatic Antimatter Containment Device (long one) costs 1,3kkk for empty one? And short one has 1.015kk displayed in description but only 15k shown by VAB in bottom left corner.

Edited by Khalkion
correcting
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1 hour ago, raxo2222 said:

Longest wavelength is 25 mm and shortest is 10 pm

That is 9 orders of magnitude!

So if aperture and spotsize is constant, and max range (without suffering spotsize losses) for longest microwave is lets say 1000 km, then xray can travel for 1000 000 milion km without spreading out too much.

Microwave generation has 90% energy efficiency and xray has 20% of energy conversion efficiency at ends of range

I guess then microwave is useful for launches, infrared for low orbit, visible/uv for whole moon system and xray for whole solar system.

Correct, X-ray truly is the way to go for long range beamed power but it suffers from a few fundamental problems which are not implemented yet.

One huge problem is targeting, although a beam of X-ray will not diverge much, even the tiniest misalignment will make it miss the target. The environment of the transmitter is currently not taken into account in its ability accurately tract a target. The lower an orbital orbit, the faster it need to turn and there harder it becomes to compensate for all movements. Therefore the longer the orbital period, the less it need to make targeting correction and the easier it will be to tract a target.

However beamed power in high orbit still suffers from the problem that it effectively acts as a powerful Photon engine. On a low orbit this is usually not that big of a problem because on every rotation it will cancel it increase or decrease in orbit, but at high orbit with long orbital periods, it might be enough to make it escape the gravity of a planet. Therefore an orbit around the sun would be a good option, but this would make the distance between Kerbin and the power station variable. Alternatively putting it on the surface of and airless mun or planet would solve the thrust problem  and also improve aiming because we would not have to compensate for any force imbalances. This would give a good reason to start a mun base besides mining and research. However putting it on the surface would introduce a huge obstacle if the target vessel is on the other side of the celestial body, which would mean to get full coverage, you needed multiple bases.

Another unimplemented potential problem is minimum focus length. While parabolic dishes can be easily configured for both long and short distance, the X-ray laser ability to focus would be limited, meaning that it would have to reduce power output at close range (+/- 100 km)  otherwise it would make big holes in the receiver panel. So it might be advantageous to fit a vessel also with a microwave receiver for high efficient power at short range or a solar power receiver for medium range and solar backup power.

 

1 hour ago, raxo2222 said:

Can universal beam producer produce xrays too?

Theoretically yes, but the big technical problem of X-rays it that it is extremely hard to redirect and bend the beam of x-ray in another direction. That is the reason that the only way to feasibly create an X-ray laser and aim it at a target is if you can aim the entire beam generator into that direction.

Edited by FreeThinker
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21 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Correct, X-ray truly is the way to go for long range beamed power but it suffers from a few fundamental problems which are not implemented yet.

One huge problem is targeting, although a beam of X-ray will not diverge much, even the tiniest misalignment will make it miss the target. The environment of the transmitter is currently not taken into account in its ability accurately tract a target. The lower an orbital orbit, the faster it need to turn and there harder it becomes to compensate for all movements. Therefore the longer the orbital period, the less it need to make targeting correction and the easier it will be to tract a target.

However beamed power in high orbit still suffers from the problem that it effectively acts as a powerful Photon engine. On a low orbit this is usually not that big of a problem because on every rotation it will cancel it increase or decrease in orbit, but at high orbit with long orbital periods, it might be enough to make it escape the gravity of a planet. Therefore an orbit around the sun would be a good option, but this would make the distance between Kerbin and the power station variable. Alternatively putting it on the surface of and airless mun or planet would solve the thrust problem  and also improve aiming because we would not have to compensate for any force imbalances. This would give a good reason to start a mun base besides mining and research. However putting it on the surface would introduce a huge obstacle if the target vessel is on the other side of the celestial body, which would mean to get full coverage, you needed multiple bases.

Another unimplemented potential problem is minimum focus length. While parabolic dishes can be easily configured for both long and short distance, the X-ray laser ability to focus would be limited, meaning that it would have to reduce power output at close range (+/- 100 km)  otherwise it would make big holes in the receiver panel. So it might be advantageous to fit a vessel also with a microwave receiver for high efficient power at short range or a solar power receiver for medium range and solar backup power.

 

Theoretically yes, but the big technical problem of X-rays it that it is extremely hard to redirect and bend the beam of x-ray in another direction. That is the reason that the only way to feasibly create an X-ray laser and aim it at a target is if you can aim the entire beam generator into that direction.

Shouldn't be here minimum spot size for all wavelengths?

I calculated somewhere before, that if one MW of wasteheat is produced from surface, then at 3700 K (if receivers would be made from same material as graphene radiators) you would need 0.1 m^2 of surface area - that would be 0.18m spotsize at minimum limit.

That would be minimum spotsize if one MW of energy was wasted - any lower would burn holes in receiver.

Also any wavelength would thrust back energy beam produced - it shouldn't be difference if its one GW in microwaves or xrays.

Edited by raxo2222
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1 hour ago, raxo2222 said:

Shouldn't be here minimum spot size for all wavelengths?

I calculated somewhere before, that if one MW of wasteheat is produced from surface, then at 3700 K (if receivers would be made from same material as graphene radiators) you would need 0.1 m^2 of surface area - that would be 0.18m spotsize at minimum limit.

That would be minimum spotsize if one MW of energy was wasted - any lower would burn holes in receiver.

Also any wavelength would thrust back energy beam produced - it shouldn't be difference if its one GW in microwaves or xrays.

Instead of a fixed minimum distance wavelength, it would make more sence to make it pendant on the type of transmitter

Something like this:

transmitter_factor = switch (transmitter_type )
{
	phased_array : 10
	mirror dish : 0.1
	optical lens : 0.01
	x-ray lens : 0.001
}
 
long_distance_spotsize = distance-to-target * wavelength / aperture_diameter
long_distance_ratio = sqrt(Minimum(1, long_distance_spotsize / receiver_diameter))

short_distance_maximum_spotsize = Maximum(0, aperture_diameter + (distance-to-target * transmitter_factor)) 
short_distance_minimum_spotsize = Maximum(0, aperture_diameter - (distance-to-target * transmitter_factor))
short_distance_ratio = (short_distance_maximum_spotsize > receiver_diameter && short_distance_minimum_spotsize < receiver_diameter)                                                                                                                               ? 1 : Minimum(1, Maximum(short_distance_maximum_spotsize/receiver_diameter , receiver_diameter / short_distance_maximum_spotsize ))

power_ratio = Minimum(long_distance_ratio, short_distance_ratio) 

 

Edited by FreeThinker
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Really enjoying this mod. Nice way to relax after taking care of patients all day!

 

Just launched a heavy 5m salt reactor into orbit with a microwave transmitter thingy. The station barely got into orbit, but it made it.

Noticed beam power was around 4 gigs, where was 7-8 on ground.  Also noticed heat a lot higher than ground. Glad it has docking ports, I'll launch a tube with more white large radiators up.

Im not rushing the tech tree. I'm trying to play with the bits as I go. I do got a few fusion reactors unlocked. And thermal 3/4s or so down that line. 

I love the emergent gameplay. I do some tourist stuff, make money. Test some interstellar stuff, lose money. Eventually discover something that works and earns more then it loses. Mimics R&D in real life.  

Was thrilled to get a SSTO going. It's big. Pebble bed and turbojet powered. Liquid fuel for over 20km altitude. Launches vertical. Has wings, 4 radial tail fins, no wheels, and big parachutes. When it hits the atmo it glides tail first and I can use the wings and thrust to slow, then it lands on its tail on kerbin, with the turbojet, using atmo fuel. No time wasted on a wheeled landing. But cost harder to control because have to land close to ksp or I'll lose money vs conventional rockets. But getting better at timing that.

Anyways, question 1 - with the thermal helper - does it turn green when all heat is dealt with on kerbin? Cause space is another matter I've found. Or dose green just mean it won't explode.

and question 2 - what was beam power rebalance. I use ckan so don't have last version. But I'm working on my beam infrastructure right now. The test project with a reactor at runway and inline thermal rocket at launchpad returned...amazing results. Working on microwave power station and relays.

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18 minutes ago, Cembandit said:

Anyways, question 1 - with the thermal helper - does it turn green when all heat is dealt with on kerbin? Cause space is another matter I've found. Or dose green just mean it won't explode.

Most of radiators have multiplyer for convetcion inside the atmosphere, some radiators like inline have this multiplier very high. So thermal helper will show you red zone while inside the atmosphere you can have about 50-60% efficiency of generators. One more not obvious fact is that when you use thermal engines (at moment they provide some thrust) they also dump a good portion of wasteheat.

If I understand thermal helper correctly, yellow means that your generator will have more than 0% efficiency at 30% load and green means that your generator will have more than 0% efficiency at 100% load in space (and can work in that mode for a very long time). But if you want some real power, you have to provide more radiators, so efficiency in thermal helper at 100% load should come closer to your tech limit (starting from 31% for the first generators). But this helper is not perfect, looks like it doesn't take into cosideration some upgrades, but still it provides good starting point with which sizes of radiators you should start.

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I had to read up on why space makes heat transfer difficult. And I thought my vacuum rolled steel yeti cup was insulating. I still don't understand why the big white folding radiator cost less than the black one, or the fixed metal one. It appears far superior to me?

 

I had a docking error with my third haul of 400 size large white folding radiators to the station. A million and a half of damages. Was pretty to watch though, as a low impact collision caused the loss of several radiators and some other damage.

I did manage to get the bottleneck a little reduced - from what I can tell its the electric generator bottlenecked by heat. Up to around 39% or something, with theoretical max of 60ish. Wall to beam close to 5 gigs of I remember right, but only getting 300m back home. Produced from a 12000ish molten salt. I'm probably using the wrong type of energy transmission for orbit to planet. Just using the basic thermal hex thing.

For now the beam project has cost over 4 million kerbucks. The cooling system add-ons have costed more then the power system! With 2 million in the bank left, the bean counters back home have stopped funding for the project for now. A small team will remain on site to maintain the reactor. Funding is being diverted to the space casino and duna exploration projects. Most useable science has been gleaned from the local moons, including valuable gravity impact data from the tetra   probe carriers.

Perhaps with the exploration of duna we will learn new ways to make our existing cooling systems function better. Plans to experiment with other wave lengths are being put together as well, using much cheaper tiny reactors as micro test projects.

Edited by Cembandit
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1 hour ago, Cembandit said:

I had a docking error with my third haul of 400 size large white folding radiators to the station. A million and a half of damages. Was pretty to watch though, as a low impact collision caused the loss of several radiators and some other damage.

I find it much safer to retract everything that can be retracted for docking, undocking and landing maneuvers.  (Landing as such isn't dangerous but if you find your target isn't as flat as you expected having the panels in can be a good thing.)

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7 hours ago, Cembandit said:

I had to read up on why space makes heat transfer difficult. And I thought my vacuum rolled steel yeti cup was insulating. I still don't understand why the big white folding radiator cost less than the black one, or the fixed metal one. It appears far superior to me?

 

I had a docking error with my third haul of 400 size large white folding radiators to the station. A million and a half of damages. Was pretty to watch though, as a low impact collision caused the loss of several radiators and some other damage.

I did manage to get the bottleneck a little reduced - from what I can tell its the electric generator bottlenecked by heat. Up to around 39% or something, with theoretical max of 60ish. Wall to beam close to 5 gigs of I remember right, but only getting 300m back home. Produced from a 12000ish molten salt. I'm probably using the wrong type of energy transmission for orbit to planet. Just using the basic thermal hex thing.

White folding radiators are stock, patched by KSPI-E. They are way superior to interstellar one at the start but after more technologies researched interstellar ones become way better. Fully upgraded graphere radiators are lighter, smaller, have higher top temperature (which is important part for space cooling) and can dissipate more heat.

If I understand you correctly you are using microwave power. I think it's meant to be used for ground bases + launches, as power will wane quite fast from distance + atmosphere (and may be low orbits just ouside the atmosphere, but it's rather Impractical as your transmitters will have a very short orbital period and you will have to wait every launch for good windows with right angles or use more stations, but the main problem is that you need maximum power at launch, not at circularization, so you will have to build bigger orbital stations that you have to with ground ones). Hovewer there is one more important aspect you have to play around - angles from reciever to transmitter. Early thermal recievers want to have transmitter beam from the sides (optimal direction - perpendicular) and have almost no perfomance when beam comes from top or bottom. Second thing you have to take into consideration - ratio of beam spot size to effective diameter of the reciever. Microwave transmitter has quite large spotsize and with enough distance between transmitter and reciever this spotsize becomes way bigger then reciever diameter, so only a fraction of power is used. Also if you want to launch ships with beam power it may be a good idea to change your ascent profile so that you can stay in good angles with transmitters longer.

Edited by Khalkion
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Yes, i had the radiators retracted on the docking ship but not the dockee ship. The investigative committee was very harsh in its analysis back home. Fingers were pointed but the root cause was determined to be feline intervention.

Spot size was not to bad to understand, even though I'm more of a biology guy. If I understand correct. It's like one person holding a salad plate, and the other holds a flashlight and aims at plate. As the plate gets farther away, more light washes over the plate (and onto the person and surroundings) and is wasted. The aim speed and ability of the flashlight holder is tracking.

the part I am using dose state that transmit is 1/10 of receive power - does this matter, or is it just talking about maximium power - the wall to beam seems right given the conversion losses. Sorry if I'm clogging up a thread dedicated to development.

Edited by Cembandit
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On 16-8-2017 at 10:15 AM, Cembandit said:

and question 2 - what was beam power rebalance. I use ckan so don't have last version. But I'm working on my beam infrastructure right now. The test project with a reactor at runway and inline thermal rocket at launchpad returned...amazing results. Working on microwave power station and relays.

4

To answer this question,

  • beamed power transmission in the X-ray wavelength become available which allows long distance power transmission at the cost of limited, expensive and heavy transmission and part receiver solutions
  • improved performance of all another wavelength, (especially in the visible and photovoltaic cells)
  • beamed power technologies are spread over more technology nodes (energy science, electric, photovoltaic and solar) and general at lower tech levels than before
  • phased array become able to transmit in the visible spectrum. Phased array are in general lighter, cheaper, larger and potentially more efficient but available later and less flexible
Edited by FreeThinker
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6 hours ago, Cembandit said:

the part I am using dose state that transmit is 1/10 of receive power - does this matter, or is it just talking about maximium power - the wall to beam seems right given the conversion losses. Sorry if I'm clogging up a thread dedicated to development.

3

It means that only 10% of the energy the power you invested is converted to beam energy that is transmitted and the remaining 90% of energy becomes waste heat. It means that any receiver will at most receive at most 10% of the original power invested.  The receiver will then have to convert the beamed power back into electric power. In general, the shorter the wavelength, the higher the losses for transmission. Therefore for optimal power transmission, you should customize the transmission wavelength with your intended receiver.

Currently, you have to do this calculation yourself, but in the near future, I will try to make it easier. An idea is the ability to select the intended target vessel or a combination of popular orbit and receiver size.

Edited by FreeThinker
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On 15.08.2017 at 0:14 AM, FreeThinker said:

Theoretically yes, but the big technical problem of X-rays it that it is extremely hard to redirect and bend the beam of x-ray in another direction. That is the reason that the only way to feasibly create an X-ray laser and aim it at a target is if you can aim the entire beam generator into that direction.

Then just make another part and add laser turrent on it like xray transmitter.

That part would be named Universal Microwave - X Ray Beam Producer

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20 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Then just make another part and add laser turrent on it like xray transmitter.

That part would be named Universal Microwave - X Ray Beam Producer

That wouldn't work because the concave lenses used for X-ray transmitter is not compatible with non X-Ray wavelengths, the only part that is capable being able to transmit both in x-ray and visible wavelength is the diode laser turret, which it already does at high efficiency than the X-Ray Transmitter power by a plasma wakefield accelerator.

Edited by FreeThinker
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On 18.08.2017 at 4:58 PM, FreeThinker said:

That wouldn't work because the concave lenses used for X-ray transmitter is not compatible with non X-Ray wavelengths, the only part that is capable being able to transmit both in x-ray and visible wavelength is the diode laser turret, which it already does at high efficiency than the X-Ray Transmitter power by a plasma wakefield accelerator.

Well it can only send soft xrays.

Also airborne laser turret requires beam generator which defeats its purpose and can use only one wavelength.

Wavelengths should use SI prefixes due to their range.

 

X-band Microwave - 25 mm

Ka-band - 8.6 mm (why it isn't round number?)

W-band - 3.2 mm (not round number too)

D-band - 2.2 mm

Far Infrared - 33 um

Long Infrared - 11 um  ~2000 times shorter wavelength and higher range than X band microwave

Short Infrared - 2.2 um

Near Infrared - 1.05 um

Red light - 700 nm

Yellow light - 600 nm

Green light - 500 nm

Near UV - 400 nm

Middle UV - 300 nm

Far UV - 200 nm

Vacuum UV - 110 nm

Near Extreme UV - 40 nm

Far Extreme UV - 13 nm ~1000 times shorter wavelength and higher range than Long Infrared.

Long Soft Xray - 4000 pm

Middle Soft Xray - 1300 pm

Short Soft Xray - 400 pm

Near Hard Xray - 130 pm

Middle Hard Xray - 40 pm

Far Hard Xray - 13 pm -1000 times shorter and 1000x higher range than Far Extreme UV.

 

 

That would be mm for microwaves, um for infrared, nm for visible and uv, and pm for xray.

Ratio of wavelength betweeen X-band Microwave and Far Hard Xray is 1920 milions.

This means if you would hit your spotsize limits for X-band microwave at 500 km, then you would hit them at 960 billion kilometers for Fard Hard xray.

It would be nice if microwave receivers listed their efficiency for selected wavelength.

Why wavelengths aren't switchable in phased array transceiver (top)?

Would be efficient if I had 4 receivers each best operating in following wavelengths:

Far Hard Xray, Far Extreme UV, Long Infrared and X band Microwave on mothership?

 

Edited by raxo2222
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On 8/13/2017 at 11:43 AM, FreeThinker said:

Uploaded final Beta 1.15.0.6: which can be downloaded frpm here

* Added X-Ray Free Electron Laser Turret (by @Eleusis La Arwall )

* Added Diamagnetic Antihydrogen storage container (by @Eleusis La Arwall )

* Added ability of Diode Laser Turret  to transmit in Soft X-Rays

* Added improved convection for submerged radiators

* Added Plasma Jet Magneto Inertial Fusion Reactor

* Added Added Blanket Rectenna Receiver

* Added automated alternative fuel type selection for fusion reactors

* Added Science Dril

* Added Improve Interface Regolith Processing

* Added exit Apoapsis and exit Periapsis to Warp Control Interface

* Added resource switchers ISRU Processor

* Added IntakeLqd pump capacity to universal drill

* Added Mean Anomaly and DeltaV or Orbit to Alcubiere Control Window

* Added Inflatable Crashpad Gas Tank

* Added Double Pivot Photostatic X-Ray Receiver

* Re balanced cost thermal radiators

* Re-balanced beamed power

* Balance: Reduced minimum Nuclear Engines my 50%, this will also reduce Thermal Electric Power Output by 50%

* Fixed Regolith processing ability to function offscreen

* Fixed Antimatter Electric Power generation

* Fixed Reactor resource output, implicitly fixing premature actinides poisoning

* Fixed Deuterium refining from Regolith

* Fixed loss of power after docking

* Fixed spamming Universal Drill Gui

* Fixed Mass growth for Tweakaled Radiators

* Fixed Exploit staged Thermal Reactor

* Fixed active ad offline fuel usage nuclear engines

* Fixed thrust unbalance with multiple nuclear engines

* Fixed Issue where vessels with antimatter would explode when being unloaded

* Fixed issue build In thermal electric generator not functioning properly, like Timerwind

* Fixed exception log spamming on Timberwind

* Fixed Interstellar Tanks Methalox container amounts

* Fixed bug with QSR affected by lithium resources

Great fixes, can't wait to get them live, thank you!

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Used biggest hard far xray transmitter and receiver and disabled areodynamics, thermodynamics and gravity in my tests.

You can't get much more than 100 bilion kilometers.

Simliliarly sized X band microwave 40m transmitter and 400m receiver would start giving up after 50 - 100 km.

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22 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Also airborne laser turret requires beam generator which defeats its purpose and can use only one wavelength.

I admit I'm not sure weather or not to give the current airborne laser a build diode generator or not.

But my plan is to allow a standalone laser transmitter to connect with multiple beam generators that are connected in stack, that way you will have the option to switch between multiple wavelengths.

Notice the Shielded Multi Wavelength Diode Laser Transmitter, the small transmitter is equipped with all possible diodes, allowing you to switch from Far infrared up to Short Soft X-ray. Of cource the transmitter has a limited aperture and power, but it can be called up.

Edited by FreeThinker
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It is possible for a "dumbed-down" version of this mod (similar to the version released in ksp 0.25) for those of us who just want to enjoy messing with warp drives? I know RoverDude release a standalone alcubierre drive but I'm really a fan of KSPI's models and warp animations 

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