Azimech

Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

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This topic was just created for us to read. So, I'm wondering and maybe many others with me. What does this mean? Are there any significant changes?

Also @UomoCapra, it could be useful to compare the old and new one. Since I'm writing this on an impulse, I haven't searched for the old one yet.

 

 

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Yeah, the first thing I'd do is to check the differences between the new version and the old version. I imagine there's a program out there which will help with that, but I don't know what it is.

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I have absolutely no evidence to base this on, just my own speculation and personal paranoia and mistrust of corporations, but my guess is this change is being done in advance of the 1.4 update and Making History expansion because there are things coming that required a change to the TOS. What kind of things? Speculating again, I'd say they've laid the groundwork for some form of DRM or microtransactions. Why do I think this? Because I read both the new TOS and the new privacy policy, and they both read like the standard, boilerplate, corporate BS ala: "You agree to let us data mine the crap out of you and do whatever we want with the game and your personal information, and you also agree to get in return only that which we choose to give you with no recourse whatsoever on your part. We own you now. So dance, Rummy."

ETA: These policies read no different to me than the ones they have in place for other games like GTA, etc. So, I don't mean to imply that this is something nefarious and unique to KSP. Its just sad to me to see KSP become another cog in the corporate machine. I love this game and I also felt a lot better about it when it was indie.

Edited by Johnny Wishbone

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First of all I'm no legal expert and process written material differently than most others, so I'm not the fastest. In a glance, I agree with @Johnny Wishbone that it seems a standard text.

But I have questions.

Question #1: are these terms specific for the forum or for other platforms as well?
Question #2: there are people who earn money using Twitch, Patreon, Youtube etc. Can they get into trouble with the new terms?
Question #3: what about modding, sharing craft files or pictures/video's of craft files?

I can't imagine problems with #3, KSP and a lot of the gaming industry depends on it nowadays.

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The TOS and EULA cover not just the forums but the store, the main website, and the game itself.

The following section, if taken strict, makes streaming KSP on for example Twitch, a violation, as Twitch is a commercial service driven by advertising and donations, which is arguably commercial activity:

You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:

  • commercially exploit the Software;"

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1 hour ago, Azimech said:

But I have questions.

Question #1: are these terms specific for the forum or for other platforms as well?
Question #2: there are people who earn money using Twitch, Patreon, Youtube etc. Can they get into trouble with the new terms?
Question #3: what about modding, sharing craft files or pictures/video's of craft files?

1# yes, would be nice to have clarification on that.
#2 and clarification on that too!
#3 obviously this point is of some interest to me :wink:, but I can't imagine that would be a problem. With both #2 #3, people in the community are essentially providing a wide coverage of free advertising for the game so putting restrictions on that would seem rather counter productive. 

1 hour ago, jwenting said:

The following section, if taken strict, makes streaming KSP on for example Twitch, a violation, as Twitch is a commercial service driven by advertising and donations, which is arguably commercial activity:

You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:

  • commercially exploit the Software;"

I think by saying do not "commercially exploit the Software", that means you can't reverse engineer, or take modules/sections of the software and use that for profit. I wouldn't take that to mean anything about using in game footage in monetized videos/streams. But then, I'm no legal expert so I could be wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, Dman979 said:

I imagine there's a program out there which will help with that, but I don't know what it is.

If this updated TOS is a modification on the original then a `git diff` of the two could be used to highlight the changes, but git is really a code tool, not so great for human friendly text (not that legal text is particularly human friendly!)

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Tossing this at us without explaining the changes and why they have to happen makes me expect the worst. Obviosly i didnt read it (way to long, those things are designed to not be read) but usualy those updated TOS mean less privacy, less customer rights, more datamining, more selling this data to everyone...

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I don't want to be That Fearmonger™, but I agree. Generally, I would've expected more notice and explanation upon switching terms of service and the like, not just "here's the new ToS/''''''privacy'''''' policy, if you don't agree before this arbitrary date then too bad".

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We're all stabbing in the dark, so I'll take a punt:

This is probably just Take-Two Interactive bringing KSP into line with their more general legal policies.

And it won't affect you or your KSP gaming pleasure at all.

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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I get a headache just from the tiny font size used, not to mention the convoluted legal wording. Ugh.

Note that there are also links made -directly and implied- to more walls of fine print than the two the announcement mentions, like the 'EULA' and any not-yet-further-identified terms from possible third parties, which we are either indirectly also considered to accept when accepting these, or will have to accept when said third parties get involved:

Quote

The terms and conditions herein are in addition to and supplement the End User License Agreement at www.take2games.com/eula that governs the use of all software and services distributed by the Company.

Quote

We use the third-party service providers as our online official re-seller and for certain in-game sales functions, check the terms and policies at point of sale. Other third-party service providers may be connected to other in-game sales functions; please review the Terms & Conditions of each product for more details. As indicated at the point of purchase, such transactions are between you and the third-party service provider and they are subject to the third-party service provider’s privacy policy and terms of service.

Quote

Additional terms and registration may be required to access online services and to download Software updates and patches.

It's the usual legalese mess that only corporate lawyers get a smile to.

 

A few parts that raise questions;

Quote

LICENSE CONDITIONS

You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:

(...)

  • make a copy of the Software or any part thereof (other than as set forth herein);

So much for having multiple installs of the game? Or keeping old versions around to finish playing a career, or to test differences between versions, or just for play/challenge purposes? Or copying the game out of the Steam folder into another place to ensure it doesn't get messed up by unexpected updates? Or even something as simple as sharing a craft file or a savegame, since that too would be 'making a copy of part of the software'. This was all explicitly allowed up to now.

Also, just a few bullet points lower:

Quote
  • reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;

So... no more modding? Because that is literally what modding means. And I find no article or provision anywhere that makes an explicit exception for modding.

Quote

Licensor reserves the right to monitor use of the Software at any time. You may not interfere with such access control measures or attempt to disable or circumvent such security features, and if you do, the Software may not function properly.

So we're not going to be allowed to block KSP from accessing the Internet anymore if we're so inclined?

 

Another interesting bit, considering the enforced emphasis up to now on mod licensing:

Quote

LICENSE TO THE COMPANY

By creating UGC, posting messages, uploading files, creating files, inputting data, or engaging in any form of communication with or through the Online Services, you are granting the Company a royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to: (1) use, copy, sublicense, adapt, transmit, publicly perform, or display any such material; and (2) sublicense to third-parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the material. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such material, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark, or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. Please consult the EULA at www.take2games.com/eula for additional license terms related to our software.

Which in essence states that they get to ignore whatever license terms you choose on your mod (= user created content) and do as they please with it and allow others of their choosing to do so as well. Which would mean mod authors need not bother anymore with picking and publishing a license for their mods, since they are nulled and voided anyway by the above text, at least when it comes to T2 and subsidiaries and yet-unidentified third parties.

 

Sigh.

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The one I'm most concerned with is:

(4) you will not post, upload, or create any copyrighted material using the Online Services unless you own the copyright in and to such material; 

and how it might effect fan-fiction stories with song quotes and such... I'm already pm'ed someone, and waiting for a final answer.

I'm also not loving this part:

LICENSE TO THE COMPANY

By creating UGC, posting messages, uploading files, creating files, inputting data, or engaging in any form of communication with or through the Online Services, you are granting the Company a royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to: (1) use, copy, sublicense, adapt, transmit, publicly perform, or display any such material; and (2) sublicense to third-parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the material. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such material, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark, or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. Please consult the EULA at www.take2games.com/eula for additional license terms related to our software.

OK... so I doubt it's ever going to happen, but is this saying Take-Two can publish Emiko Station, and leave me out of the equation completely?

 

Edited by Just Jim

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For those wanting to check or compare the old terms and policies:

kerbalspaceprogram.com - Guidelines (2018-02-22):
https://web.archive.org/web/20180222215239/https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/guidelines/

kerbalspaceprogram.com - Add-On Posting Rules (2018-02-22):
https://web.archive.org/web/20180222214924/https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154851-add-on-posting-rules-november-24-2017/

kerbalspaceprogram.com - EULA (2018-02-22):
https://web.archive.org/web/20180222215143/https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/en/?page_id=39

kerbalspaceprogram.com - Terms of Service (2018-02-22):
https://web.archive.org/web/20180222215041/https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/en/?page_id=43

Technically those are the terms for the forum/website, but as far as I know no other terms are given with the KSP software either at buying or at installing. The LegalNotice.txt in the main KSP folder just reprints the license terms of various pieces of code that are used in or included with KSP.

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1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

OK... so I doubt it's ever going to happen, but is this saying Take-Two can publish Emiko Station, and leave me out of the equation completely?

Yes, this is what I am concerned about as well. If this is indeed the case, I might choose to abandon Kerny's Journal right where it now stands.

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

(4) you will not post, upload, or create any copyrighted material using the Online Services unless you own the copyright in and to such material; 

And if I am reading this completely, then technically could fan-fiction be considered a "taboo" subject now?

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14 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

And if I am reading this completely, then technically could fan-fiction be considered a "taboo" subject now?

I don't think so... technically, as writers, I think we already own the copyrights... at least in this respect. The problem I'm worried about is when I've quoted songs and such... although I've always tried to credit the artists who sang and/or performed them. And I know I'm not the only one to quote stuff.

Edited by Just Jim

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2 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Yes, this is what I am concerned about as well. If this is indeed the case, I might choose to abandon Kerny's Journal right where it now stands.

And if I am reading this completely, then technically could fan-fiction be considered a "taboo" subject now?

I am thinking fan fiction is safe. Think about the book Ready Player One vs Spielberg's movie of the book. Author Ernest Cline can get away with references to all the copyrighted games because he is just using words; but the movie would have to portray the games themselves. As the script writer said: 

Quote

‘Okay, can we get the rights to Donkey Kong?’ or what have you. It’s very different in a film like that than it is in a documentary where you can just declare fair use and do it.

And in fact the movie has been changed, leaning heavily on material Disney already owns.

There was a post not long ago in which someone was using KSP to create scenes for a movie he was making. In all truth it sounded innocuous enough, and I doubt their intention was to make money. But - there were people here on the forum willing to provide 'guidance or instruction' on how to re-create a Star Trek like bridge you could walk around in. 

Was not there also a case where China used a KSP screen shot in a poster?

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52 minutes ago, Ty Tan Tu said:

Was not there also a case where China used a KSP screen shot in a poster?

Yes... I remember someone posting that a couple months ago. I think we're safe... I just tend to overthink stuff... :confused:

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2 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Yes... I remember someone posting that a couple months ago. I think we're safe... I just tend to overthink stuff... :confused:

Wait... KSP players... overthink...stuff?

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I think with all T&C agreements like this the actual wording can be quite prohibitive.  That gives the company some scope to take action when the need arises.  In practical terms they KNOW a lot of users have multiple saves on their PCs and even if it does 'technically' break the terms then they just aren't bothered, and it is actually to their advantage to tolerate it.

If however anyone 'abused' this tolerance and started doing stuff very much 'out of order' then the 'only one copy allowed' rule gives them a handle by which they can legally apply pressure.

I don't think anything will change in practical terms.

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8 hours ago, pandaman said:

I think with all T&C agreements like this the actual wording can be quite prohibitive.  That gives the company some scope to take action when the need arises.  In practical terms they KNOW a lot of users have multiple saves on their PCs and even if it does 'technically' break the terms then they just aren't bothered, and it is actually to their advantage to tolerate it.

Agreed 100% for example, they won't bother twitch streamers because it's supportive of the game and the community. If Fox tries to produce a movie or TV show though, Squad can point towards the T&C and say "nope, pay up if you want to use it". 

Have you guys ever actually read the fine print on an apartment lease agreement? Now THOSE are scary - at least in the U.S. I had a lease once that literally said - if I get injured as a result of negligence on the part of building management they weren't liable...hahaha. Software T&C issues aren't likely to result in my injury or death....

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24 minutes ago, Tyko said:

Software T&C issues aren't likely to result in my injury or death....

Tyko

1986-2018

Died when KSP krakened out, causing a rapid power discharge which entered his body through the mouse.

Rest In Peace.

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21 hours ago, swjr-swis said:
Quote
  • reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;

So... no more modding? Because that is literally what modding means. And I find no article or provision anywhere that makes an explicit exception for modding.

Curiously enough, most KSP mods don't actually modify the software, per se.  The software as-written has a number of little hooks that go out and look for stuff like module manager and other external configs that override or add to some of its own default settings and assets.  Mods happen because KSP goes and looks in that happy little magic folder we all drop our mods in and does a bunch of stuff based on what it finds in there.

Now if we did stuff like slice parts out of the SQUAD folder and/or plop in our own, or mess with the stock craft, then after that re-distrute the modified folders to others, that'd be modification of the software.

I'll admit I'm pretty perplexed by the third and fourth verbs, there, though.  Display is weird, and perform??  That's just confusing.

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Maybe I need to read them again, but these new documents seem to pertain mostly to the “Online Services” provided by TT/Squad and not the game; ie: this forum and the community at large. Of course they don’t want you to mod the Forum software or make other such changes to it.

The game includes its own EULA.

Regardless, the documents don’t seem to be significantly changed from their prior versions. We never had any real rights to swim freely in this fishbowl in the first place, and that much hasn’t changed. 

Edited by Cydonian Monk

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4 minutes ago, Archgeek said:

Display is weird, and perform??  That's just confusing.

I assume that display is to prevent stuff like this, and perform is to prevent derivative plays, music, etc. I could be wrong though, since I am not a lawyer.

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Updated Terms Notice

FEBRUARY 23 1600 GMT - DANIELE.PELOGGIO
Please note that the EULA[www.take2games.com] for Kerbal Space Program will be changed on March 6, 2018. Please read this agreement in its entirety. You must agree with the terms of the EULA including the Privacy Policy[www.take2games.com] and Terms of Service[www.take2games.com] to play Kerbal Space Program.

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