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Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy


Azimech

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20 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Hate to break it to you, but you never really did. There were always clauses that allowed the terms to be amended in such a way that would force you to either accept those amendments or stop playing. Continuing to play under the old terms was not and never has been an option.

This is all quite illegal where I live. (Gemany)

 

You buy it, you own it.

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32 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

I would say no, this one is more concerning:

" 5. Miscellaneous 5.1 Add-ons A more detailed set of rules regarding add-ons and add-on licensing can be found here and must be followed at all times. "

That one annoyed me because clicking on the link took you back to the same page, requiring you to agree to another page of terms which could not be read

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11 minutes ago, NoMrBond said:

That one annoyed me because clicking on the link took you back to the same page, requiring you to agree to another page of terms which could not be read

Exactly!
and that one seems extremely relevant at least to those who submit any kind of mod, or other content... If that is covered as part of the ToS, it reaaly needs to be readble *BEFORE* having to accept the ToS

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16 minutes ago, stibbons said:

The EULA doesn't apply to the forums.

hmmm... the link is titled Terms of Service in that post... and it sounds like you have to accept it to access (I'm assuming), your forum account... yet that seems to be a combined ToS/EULA....
so how again does that *not* apply?... and also, whats in that, does not seem to be the same as what I accepted this morning when accessing the forums...

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1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Hate to break it to you, but you never really did. There were always clauses that allowed the terms to be amended in such a way that would force you to either accept those amendments or stop playing. Continuing to play under the old terms was not and never has been an option.

I beg to differ. If I purchase a product, the seller cannot reserve the right to take that product back if I at some future time fail to agree to some additional terms in order to be allowed to use the product.

Once upon a time, software was sold primarily on physical media and digital rights management was handled through things like serial keys. Certainly, games software retailing has come a long way from that stage of the commerce, but the fact that Steam's model has been prevalent for even longer than KSP has been in existence does not change the fundamental truths of consumer product law. When a person buys an end user license agreement they OWN that EULA forever; I don't need to draw an analogy to a product like a printed book or a record do I? The IP owner has NO RIGHT to change the terms of service if such changes would infringe on the original rights of ownership. PERIOD. Any argument for anything less favorable to the consumer is an argument for something so nefarious, so unethical and so inconceivable it makes "snake oil" sales sound beneficient.

IP owners have every right to protect their property. But if they seek to make a living by selling access to their property then they need to operate from a mirror principle that EULA owners have every right to protect THEIR property too.

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55 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Hate to break it to you, but you never really did. There were always clauses that allowed the terms to be amended in such a way that would force you to either accept those amendments or stop playing. Continuing to play under the old terms was not and never has been an option.

Note that in EU they are not legally binding. As in if you read in ToS that you need to pay $1000 year to use software this is an breach of contract if not clearly visible on the download / purchase page.
No it does not cover changes in online services as in online games, You can not do an class action against Blizzard because of an ability nerf in WOW (shatter shot does 10% less damage)

Some minor regional streamer got banned by Steam, he bought an game, found he did not like it and wanted to refund it, this was before steam refund so it was denied. 
He then denied the credit card transaction, steam responded by blocking his steam account and all his games. 
His response was to make an video of him prating the game he had bought, and please sue me
Best comment was; think Stalingrad however way better defended and city named "an obvious trap with sugar on" 
We got steam refund :)
 

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12 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

I beg to differ. If I purchase a product, the seller cannot reserve the right to take that product back if I at some future time fail to agree to some additional terms in order to be allowed to use the product.

Once upon a time, software was sold primarily on physical media and digital rights management was handled through things like serial keys. Certainly, games software retailing has come a long way from that stage of the commerce, but the fact that Steam's model has been prevalent for even longer than KSP has been in existence does not change the fundamental truths of consumer product law. When a person buys an end user license agreement they OWN that EULA forever; I don't need to draw an analogy to a product like a printed book or a record do I? The IP owner has NO RIGHT to change the terms of service if such changes would infringe on the original rights of ownership. PERIOD. Any argument for anything less favorable to the consumer is an argument for something so nefarious, so unethical and so inconceivable it makes "snake oil" sales sound beneficient.

IP owners have every right to protect their property. But if they seek to make a living by selling access to their property then they need to operate from a mirror principle that EULA owners have every right to protect THEIR property too.

I may be in error, but my understanding is that if you buy software and download it digitally, you are not buying a physical copy of the software but a licence to download and use it. This makes it not a product, but a service. There are relevant issues affecting the music and video industries. If you did not buy a hard copy of the game on physical media, you don't own the game or any copy of it that you possess.

As I said, I may be wrong, but this is my understanding.

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I dumped Steam back in 2002 (I think it was, or maybe 2000? I forget.), when they decided to no longer support the version of Half-Life Day of Defeat (mod) I played. The block/lock they put on it even prevented me from playing offline with Sturmbots. Tens of thousands of people were hit with the same thing, plenty of protest, and not a single voice was paid attention to. This was when 'Sauce' came out, and the Direct-X update, which literally forced people to go out and buy new PCs in order to play Steam dished-out games. So, to hell with Steam.

The real problem here, is that people think they 'own' the software they're paying for, which isn't true. Read any licensing that comes with any software, your OSs included, and you'll find you've merely paid for the right to use, revocable at any time. KSP is no different.

And as for any software company or forums 'owning' (claiming ownership of) whatever content one might post... they really need to think that one over carefully, because that then absolves one of any serious liability in statements one might make. Say for example, something which would have the NSA or FBI or appropriate whomever, showing up at your door. That's now all on you buddy. The worst one would suffer in consequence of that (the OP), is a deleted post and perm-ban... which, also, if you think about it realistically, is not something able to be enforced these days in this brave new electronic world.

Money, power, control.

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35 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I may be in error, but my understanding is that if you buy software and download it digitally, you are not buying a physical copy of the software but a licence to download and use it. This makes it not a product, but a service. There are relevant issues affecting the music and video industries. If you did not buy a hard copy of the game on physical media, you don't own the game or any copy of it that you possess.

As I said, I may be wrong, but this is my understanding.

I don't think that calling "service" does make one exempt from law. It even admits that much… in a way:

Quote

You and Licensor agree that the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (Vienna, 1980) shall not apply to this Agreement or to any dispute or transaction arising out of this Agreement. However, if you are a resident of a European Union member state, you will benefit from any mandatory provisions of consumer protection law in the member state in which you are resident, and you can bring legal proceedings in relation to this Agreement in the courts of the member state in which you are resident.

I can't help myslef but read it as "we may screw you whichever way we like unless  you happen to come from state entity with long enough stick to make us respect consumer rights".

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Moderator hat: 

Some posts have been removed from this thread for being off-topic, and even a little bit of politics. 

Personal opinion hat: 

This reminds me of that time the Curse partnership entirely ruined the game and the forum forever. 

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8 hours ago, Derb said:

They can't comment because it is bad practice, and likely unethical, to give what amounts to legal advice to an outside party who could have a dispute with who you represent.

I still don't understand how giving an answer about a contract to the other party who is entering into said contract is somehow bad practice.  If so, anyone I've ever entered into a contract with was behaving very poorly.  I will turn them in to the proper authorities post haste.

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7 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

A few examples, which may or may not convince anyone that it is quite possible for even multinationals to add plain text explanations or summaries of the terms. If they can do so without undue legal pitfalls, mayhaps smaller companies with much less legal exposure could do so as well.

 

 

  • Dropbox ToS: "When you use our Services, you provide us with things like your files, content, messages, contacts and so on ("Your Stuff"). Your Stuff is yours. These Terms don't give us any rights to Your Stuff except for the limited rights that enable us to offer the Services."  Holymoly it doesn't get any more plain text than that. And that isn't even a summary or explanation - it's the actual main text of the terms.
  • LinkedIn User Agreement: "You own all of the content, feedback, and personal information you provide to us, but you also grant us a non-exclusive license to it."  An example of the side-by-side plain text summary form.
  • eBay Privacy Policy: example of the tl;dr format giving plain(er) text summaries at the top that link to the full text of the policy articles.
  • Twitter ToS: "You retain your rights to any Content you submit, post or display on or through the Services. What’s yours is yours — you own your Content (and your photos and videos are part of the Content)."  Main body of the text. Funny how even this company can manage to be clear and concise without legalese about something as simple as 'who owns or retains rights to what you post here'.

My first point here is gong to be: those are all massive companies who can afford lawyers to scrutinize the "plain speech" versions to death until they're rid of any possible liabilities from it.

My second point would be that what they're doing is fairly simple, straightforward, and follows their license and all relevant IP law.

The issue for Take Two right now? They're allowing a lot of illegal, license-breaking, copyright-breaking stuff because it's good for them. This, ironically, means stricter terms, and I'll get to that point later.

 

Fanfiction? A derivative work, a right reserved exclusively to the copyright owner (Take Two). It is, as point of fact, illegal copyright infringement, and if Take Two wanted to, they have every legal ground to have it taken down. They don't, however, because fanfiction is good PR. And possibly because a few of the more satirical ones probably fall under fair use doctrines.

Fan art? See above.

Screenshots (of which I've likely posted hundreds)? See above. I'd have to ditch probably 90% of the stuff I've uploaded to Imgur if Take Two sent a C&D.

Mods? Mods are... not copyright infringement, except for maybe the parts linking to KSP code and maybe final end-products transformed by PartTools. All the rest of the code, and any art assets prior to putting them through PartTools are yours, and continue to be yours. They're not a derivative work based on the KSP IP (eliminating copyright concerns), they're not generated using Squad/Take Two software (which eliminates we-automatically-have-a-license shenanigans)... they're yours.

 

All of this puts them in a paradoxical spot. Let's say somebody wrote a fanfiction of which Take Two disapproved, for whatever reason.

If Take Two doesn't have these draconian terms written into their contract, they have no hammer with which to have it taken down. Any judge will take one look, say "well, you've tolerated it many times before, I'm not going to let you selectively punish one person based on something never written into the contract."

if Take Two does have clauses stating "no, you may not do this", Take Two has the freedom of selectively enforcing this. They can sue you, and the judge will say "you accepted this contract, this was written into the terms, Take Two can do this". The rest of the time? They can... not sue. They can take a blind eye to it, to the point of literally hosting fanfiction, fanart, etc, on their forum.

 

Also, when you mentioned "dozens of eBay addons to Firefox"? Those... modify Firefox, not eBay.

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As I am sure everyone here is aware, Kerbal Space Program was some time ago acquired by Take Two Interactive. Given this company's track record when it comes to how it treats fan content for its own games, I immediately became concerned when I tried to log in to the forums today and had to read through and accept new terms of service, which were ever so reassuringly titled "TAKE-TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, INC. TERMS OF SERVICE".

One particular section of the new terms of service greatly concerns me, and I would greatly appreciate some clarification from staff as to what implications this will have in regards to fan content (such as mods, videos, fan art/ fan fiction, etc) for Kerbal Space Program.

Here is the section in question (with the particularly concerning parts underlined):

Quote

TRADEMARK AND COPYRIGHT INFORMATION

All Online Services material, including, but not limited to, text, data, graphics, logos, button icons, images, audio clips, video clips, links, digital downloads, data compilations, and software is owned, controlled by, licensed to, or used with permission by the Company and is protected by copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property rights. The Online Services material is made available solely for your personal, non-commercial use and may not be copied, reproduced, republished, modified, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way, including by email or other electronic means, without the express prior written consent of the Company in each instance. You may download material intentionally made available for downloading through the Online Services for your personal, non-commercial use only, provided that you keep intact any and all copyright and other proprietary notices that may appear on such materials.

What exactly does "Online Services material" mean in this context, and how does it relate to fan content posted on the forums?

For example, I have been writing a fan-fiction novel intermittently for the past year and a half or so, which I have posted to my own thread in the 'KSP Fan Works' section of this forum. I did this for my own enjoyment, of course, and I certainly do not make any money off of it. Regardless, I did technically distribute artwork/writing that uses and is based off of copyrighted material, and I didn't ask for Take Two's permission before I did it. Nor did I have to, because as far as I am aware the Terms of Service at that time required me to do no such thing. Is that going to change now? Any time that I want to distribute fan art or writing related to KSP, am I going to have to ask for Take Two's direct permission, as these new terms seem to dictate? 

Does this apply to mods as well? 

I do hope I am just misinterpreting this, but nonetheless I have become greatly concerned about the future of the KSP community. Fan content is the life blood of Kerbal Space Program. If you kill the fan content, you kill the game. Period. Hopefully any staff who are reading this can understand my concerns, and I would really appreciate it if one of you could please clarify what exactly these new terms mean with regards to fan content; and more specifically, if I can still write my fan-fiction novel without having to worry about getting sued.

 

-Third_OfFive

Edited by Third_OfFive
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This was KSP's EULA when I paid for it.  I took a trip in the wayback machine to 2012

Spoiler

Kerbal Space Program End-User License Agreement

IMPORTANT PLEASE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE CONTINUING WITH THIS PROGRAM INSTALL: Electro Chango S.A. de C.V.’s End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. for the Electro Chango S.A. de C.V.  software product(s) identified above which may include associated software components, media, printed materials, and "online" or electronic documentation ("SOFTWARE PRODUCT"). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. This license agreement represents the entire agreement concerning the program between you and Electro Chango S.A. de C.V., (referred to as "licenser"), and it supersedes any prior proposal, representation, or understanding between the parties. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install or use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold.


1. GRANT OF LICENSE.
The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed as follows:
(a) Installation and Use.
Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. grants you the right to install and use copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on your computer running a validly licensed copy of the operating system for which the SOFTWARE PRODUCT was designed [e.g., Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows Vista, Mac OSX].
(b) Backup Copies.
You may also make copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT as may be necessary for backup and archival purposes.


2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.
(a) Maintenance of Copyright Notices.
You must not remove or alter any copyright notices on any and all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
(b) Distribution.
You may not distribute registered copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to third parties. Evaluation versions available for download from Electro Chango S.A. de C.V.'s websites may be freely distributed.
(c) Prohibition on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly.
You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.
(d) Rental.
You may not rent, lease, or lend the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
(e) Support Services.
Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. may provide you with support services (e.g., KSP Software Development Kit) related to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT ("Support Services"). Any supplemental software code provided to you as part of the Support Services shall be considered part of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA.
(f) Compliance with Applicable Laws.
You must comply with all applicable laws regarding use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.


3. TERMINATION
Without prejudice to any other rights, Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT in your possession.


4. COPYRIGHT
All title, including but not limited to copyrights, in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and any copies thereof are owned by Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. or its suppliers. All title and intellectual property rights in and to the content which may be accessed through use of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is the property of the respective content owner and may be protected by applicable copyright or other intellectual property laws and treaties. This EULA grants you no rights to use such content. All rights not expressly granted are reserved by Electro Chango S.A. de C.V..


5. NO WARRANTIES
Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. expressly disclaims any warranty for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is provided 'As Is' without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including but not limited to any warranties of merchantability, noninfringement, or fitness of a particular purpose. Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. does not warrant or assume responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. makes no warranties respecting any harm that may be caused by the transmission of a computer virus, worm, time bomb, logic bomb, or other such computer program. Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. further expressly disclaims any warranty or representation to Authorized Users or to any third party.


6. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
In no event shall Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. be liable for any damages (including, without limitation, lost profits, business interruption, or lost information) rising out of 'Authorized Users' use of or inability to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, even if Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In no event will Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. be liable for loss of data or for indirect, special, incidental, consequential (including lost profit), or other damages based in contract, tort or otherwise. Electro Chango S.A. de C.V. shall have no liability with respect to the content of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or any part thereof, including but not limited to errors or omissions contained therein, libel, infringements of rights of publicity, privacy, trademark rights, business interruption, personal injury, loss of privacy, moral rights or the disclosure of confidential information.

 Compare that to now. Lots of things changed, lots of things stayed the same.

 

--edit I'm just curious, I don't actually care, but this license doesn't have anything like "This limited software warranty and license agreement (this “Agreement“) may be periodically updated and the current version will be posted at http://www.take2games.com/eula (the “Website“). Your continued use of the Software after a revised Agreement has been posted constitutes your acceptance of its terms. " Like the current one does. What does this mean?

Edited by TheUnamusedFox
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11 minutes ago, Third_OfFive said:

As I am sure everyone here is aware, Kerbal Space Program was some time ago acquired by Take Two Interactive. Given this company's track record when it comes to how it treats fan content for its own games, I immediately became concerned when I tried to log in to the forums today and had to read through and accept new terms of service, which were ever so reassuringly titled "TAKE-TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, INC. TERMS OF SERVICE".

One particular section of the new terms of service greatly concerns me, and I would greatly appreciate some clarification from staff as to what implications this will have in regards to fan content (such as mods, videos, fan art/ fan fiction, etc) for Kerbal Space Program.

Here is the section in question (with the particularly concerning parts underlined):

What exactly does "Online Services material" mean in this context, and how does it relate to fan content posted on the forums?

For example, I have been writing a fan-fiction novel intermittently for the past year and a half or so, which I have posted to my own thread in the 'KSP Fan Works' section of this forum. I did this for my own enjoyment, of course, and I certainly do not make any money off of it. Regardless, I did technically distribute artwork/writing that uses and is based off of copyrighted material, and I didn't ask for Take Two's permission before I did it. Nor did I have to, because as far as I am aware the Terms of Service at that time required me to do no such thing. Is that going to change now? Any time that I want to distribute fan art or writing related to KSP, am I going to have to ask for Take Two's direct permission, as these new terms seem to dictate? 

Does this apply to mods as well? 

I do hope I am just misinterpreting this, but nonetheless I have become greatly concerned about the future of the KSP community. Fan content is the life blood of Kerbal Space Program. If you kill the fan content, you kill the game. Period. Hopefully any staff who are reading this can understand my concerns, and I would really appreciate it if one of you could please clarify exactly what exactly these new terms mean with regards to fan content; and more specifically, if I can still write my fan-fiction novel without having to worry about getting sued.

 

-Third_OfFive

I don't think it'll really change a thing.

Please note I'm not a lawyer. If I was a lawyer, I'd have to ask for money, because formal legal advice from a lawyer requires a formal lawyer-client relationship, and lawyers don't work for free.

My understanding of things is that your fanfiction continues to violate Take Two's copyright, and Take Two will continue to ignore this because it's good PR for them. However, explicitly adding it to the TOS means that if, for some reason, Take Two does take exception, there is explicit language in the contract. Without explicit language in the contract, a judge might reasonably say "you've let it slide for all these other people, and thus you've granted users an implicit right to fanfiction." With explicit language, however, there is no ambiguity to possibly exploit, so Take Two can still take it down if, for some reason, they take exception.

They probably won't, though: fanfiction is usually good PR, and attacking fanfiction writers (nevermind established fanfiction writers) could easily cause a community revolt.

EDIT: Also, as discussed in the other thread (to which this will probably be merged), Take Two and Squad have to be very circumspect in what they say right now, because it could be constituted as "legal advice" and open them up to liability. Safer for them to stay mum.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/171236-updated-terms-notice-privacy-policy-discussion/

Edited by Starman4308
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3 minutes ago, Starman4308 said:

I don't think it'll really change a thing.

Please note I'm not a lawyer. If I was a lawyer, I'd have to ask for money, because formal legal advice from a lawyer requires a formal lawyer-client relationship, and lawyers don't work for free.

My understanding of things is that your fanfiction continues to violate Take Two's copyright, and Take Two will continue to ignore this because it's good PR for them. However, explicitly adding it to the TOS means that if, for some reason, Take Two does take exception, there is explicit language in the contract. Without explicit language in the contract, a judge might reasonably say "you've let it slide for all these other people, and thus you've granted users an implicit right to fanfiction." With explicit language, however, there is no ambiguity to possibly exploit, so Take Two can still take it down if, for some reason, they take exception.

They probably won't, though: fanfiction is usually good PR, and attacking fanfiction writers (nevermind established fanfiction writers) could easily cause a community revolt.

EDIT: Also, as discussed in the other thread (to which this will probably be merged), Take Two and Squad have to be very circumspect in what they say right now, because it could be constituted as "legal advice" and open them up to liability. Safer for them to stay mum.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/171236-updated-terms-notice-privacy-policy-discussion/

Thanks. I hope you are right, I was looking forward to getting at least one more good year out of this game. 

If not though, I will definitely join said "community revolt". I've already had two of my favorite games ruined by money-hungry developers (those being Minecraft and ARK), I'd rather not have KSP become the third.

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Don't leave. If the community as a whole refuses to move to 1.4 then the mod makers can finish the game properly.

Like they've been doing for the last 6 years.

KSP mods are full of passion and love and are almost unique in the way they've flourished and former mod developers are the parts of squad I continue to support the work of.

Edited by Spartwo
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7 minutes ago, Pixel Kola said:

Thanks, Squad. KSP was great. Thank God I will have 1.3.1 and all my mods for eternity.

I can address this, at least, in a fact-based manner instead of as an opinion.

You accepted the new license agreement by continuing to play 1.3.1. If Take Two decides they don't want you playing KSP... you can wave farewell to 1.3.1.

The terms have always been "you exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it", it's just the "you will end because we demand it" part of the TOS/EULA changed slightly this time around and scared people.

Not that they're actually likely to end it. Bad PR tends to result in fewer sales, and they currently have no reason to demand your end.

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All games have restrictive-sounding EULA. I've been seeing "Stock sold out, goodbye" since at least 1.0... Squad gives us anything and we get angry. Not to say I support the EULA (I don't) or love the new parts (Bluedog Design Bureau is better) but it's not worth worrying about.

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17 minutes ago, Starman4308 said:

The terms have always been "you exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it", it's just the "you will end because we demand it" part of the TOS/EULA changed slightly this time around and scared people.

Not that they're actually likely to end it. Bad PR tends to result in fewer sales, and they currently have no reason to demand your end.

This.

I've been in enough communities and seen enough of these "sky is falling" reactions to EULA tweaks to know that they never actually mean anything for the playerbase. All EULAs are draconian, because that's the nature of legal contracts. They have to cover every possibility in a very precise way. It's almost all technicalities, and almost never gets enforced on the normal members of the community. It's mostly there just to cover their butts in case this legal situation or that one comes up.

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