Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[KerbMav]

On 5/7/2018 at 3:11 PM, Curveball Anders said:

In windows it's as simple as blocking KSP.exe and/or KSP_64.exe from network access.

Can every Win user do this?

Meaning: Does every version (Home,Pro,Super,Ultra...) give the user access to the necessary "switches and buttons"?

Edited May 16, 2018 by KerbMav

[Curveball Anders]

16 hours ago, KerbMav said:

Can every Win user do this?

Meaning: Does every version (Home,Pro,Super,Ultra...) give the user access to the necessary "switches and buttons"?

I think so.

I've only tested with Home, but it should work with that others.

Otherwise there's a slightly more convoluted way by locking certain addresses in the host file.

[hbk314]

On 5/6/2018 at 5:06 PM, Darth C3P0 said:

eh, i guess i was wrong. meant privacy policy anyways

but still i dont really like the fact that they are able to get my information just because I bought their content

 

You wouldn't be having this misunderstanding if you actually read that whole section instead of picking out a "scary" paragraph out of context. It references "activities listed above," yet you cut that part out of your quote. Let me help you.

Quote

Personal information is information that identifies you and that may be used to contact you online or offline. The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis. When you submit personal information to the Company, it will usually take the form of:

Registration for Online Services, websites, jobs, products, contests, and special events;

Subscribing to newsletters or alerts;

Posting in or commenting on our message boards, forums, news blogs, chat rooms, or other Online Services;

Purchasing a product or services through our online stores;

Purchasing downloadable content, virtual items, or virtual currency for use with our software and/or Online Services;

Using "tell a friend," "email this page," or other E-Card features;

Requesting technical support;

Downloading demos, programs, or other software;

Participating in polls, surveys, and questionnaires; or

Otherwise through use of our software, including console products, mobile products, and personal computer products, and through the use of our online products or Online Services where personal information is required for use and/or participation.

The types of information collected in connection with the activities listed above will vary depending on the activity. The information we collect may include personal information such as your first and/or last name, e-mail address, phone number, photo, mailing address, geolocation, or payment information. In addition, we may collect your age, gender, date of birth, zip code, hardware configuration, console ID, software products played, survey data, purchases, IP address and the systems you have played on. We may combine the information with your personal information and across other computers or devices that you may use. Prize winners may be required to provide additional information for prize fulfillment.

There's the full context. As you can see, "all personal information is collected on a voluntary basis." That means you have to provide it to them by filling out a form, likely associated with one of the activities on that list. If you keep reading the privacy policy, you'll see that it lists what data may be collected by the game. It also states what data is used for and the limited circumstance where personal information may be shared, such as a court order.

 

Long story short, this is much ado about nothing. This is caused by ignorance and misunderstanding. It then snowballs when people get mislead by out of context quotes and just buy into it without doing their own research. It's unfortunate, but the facts are clear. The game isn't spyware. It doesn't collect personal information. The company isn't selling its customers' private data. I suggest everyone take a look at the privacy policy: https://www.take2games.com/privacy/#3

[Mrtortoise23]

I have waited so long to buy this game on PS4.. And now I cant buy it.. The EULA wants allof yourt personal info to share with whoever they want... No thanks..

[Jimbodiah]

 

[Gargamel]

/facepalm

I watched a good chunk of this hoping it was a joke, poking fun at the already huge thread we have on this...

[Superfluous J]

I signed the EULA and Squad came and stole my kidneys.

Edited May 26, 2018 by 5thHorseman
Fixed capitalization (stupid phone)

[The Aziz]

This thing again?

[maceemiller]

If I'm honest...I just play the game....bigger things in life to worry about...

[RealKerbal3x]

KSP is NOT spyware, it's just people getting scared over what is basically a blanket EULA. A lot of the EULA does not apply to KSP at all. If you're really worried about it then just block KSP from network access.

Seriously, just stop fretting about it. This discussion was over two months ago.

1 minute ago, maceemiller said:

If I'm honest...I just play the game....bigger things in life to worry about...

^^ This.

[klgraham1013]

Have you read any other EULAs?  They're all just as ridiculous.  

2 hours ago, maceemiller said:

If I'm honest...I just play the game....bigger things in life to worry about...

I actually think it's a really big issue, but since no one cares, they're not going to change.  I'll just continue praying to the Kraken that they never actually become enforceable, and move on with my life.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, klgraham1013 said:

Have you read any other EULAs?  They're all just as ridiculous.  

I actually think it's a really big issue, but since no one cares, they're not going to change.  I'll just continue praying to the Kraken that they never actually become enforceable, and move on with my life.

It is a big issue. But since the practical consequences are still minimal, most people don't care - including the people that use EULAs. Most of them just don't realize the exact meaning of what they are doing themselves, they are doing it because everybody else is doing it, and that's all.

It's mined field - by reacting, you essentially are "accusing" them of what them can do, but they receive it as an "accusation" over what they intended to do: two different things in their minds - and then the offense became agravated.

[FinalFan]

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

It is a big issue. But since the practical consequences are still minimal, most people don't care - including the people that use EULAs. Most of them just don't realize the exact meaning of what they are doing themselves, they are doing it because everybody else is doing it, and that's all.

It's mined field - by reacting, you essentially are "accusing" them of what them can do, but they receive it as an "accusation" over what they intended to do: two different things in their minds - and then the offense became agravated.

The problem with that argument is that I'm pretty sure the legal version of "cover your ass" is "obtain permission to do literally anything, then you have a legal defense for them getting mad at you for stuff you did."  The original goal may be just protection against silly people getting upset over reasonable actions, or trolls mad you banned their troll account etc., but the method is still pretty pernicious. [edit:  And it's an extremely short step for a for-profit to company to say "hey, look at this thing I now have, how can I monetize this?"]

Having said that, I do not trust that video at all.  Maybe they decided not to read the part where the third party businesses only get info necessary to run KSP, or governments only get info when they have a search warrant, etc.  The closing statement betrays the video as obviously propaganda:  "Are you on the side that just doesn't care about privacy, or are you on the side that cares whether companies are taking advantage of you" is only a slight exaggeration of what he said. 

This is the first I'm hearing about the EULA.  I may look into it, but right now the evidence I have is little more than wild finger-pointing. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by FinalFan
edit

[Snark]

Merged yet another newly started up thread on the EULA subject into this one.

In the process, pruned out a variety of posts that were complaining about the existence of the thread, requesting moderator action, etc.  Folks, just a friendly reminder, please do not publicly call for moderator action.  It's called "backseat moderating" and is against the forum rules (specifically, 3.2).  You're not a moderator, so it's not your place to tell anyone else what to do or not to do.

If you see something that you think needs moderator action, please just report the post-- it's what the report function is for.  That will ping the moderator team, and we can then look into the matter and adjust anything that may need adjusting.

Thank you for your understanding.

[hbk314]

18 hours ago, Jimbodiah said:

 

This video is a blatant lie based around a quote taken completely out of context. FinalFan also did a good job of summing up the problems with it.

Read the privacy policy: https://www.take2games.com/privacy/

Here's the context of that quote(emphasis mine):

Quote

WHAT PERSONAL AND OTHER INFORMATION DOES THE COMPANY COLLECT?

Personal information is information that identifies you and that may be used to contact you online or offline. The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis. When you submit personal information to the Company, it will usually take the form of:

Registration for Online Services, websites, jobs, products, contests, and special events;

Subscribing to newsletters or alerts;

Posting in or commenting on our message boards, forums, news blogs, chat rooms, or other Online Services;

Purchasing a product or services through our online stores;

Purchasing downloadable content, virtual items, or virtual currency for use with our software and/or Online Services;

Using "tell a friend," "email this page," or other E-Card features;

Requesting technical support;

Downloading demos, programs, or other software;

Participating in polls, surveys, and questionnaires; or

Otherwise through use of our software, including console products, mobile products, and personal computer products, and through the use of our online products or Online Services where personal information is required for use and/or participation.

The types of information collected in connection with the activities listed above will vary depending on the activity. The information we collect may include personal information such as your first and/or last name, e-mail address, phone number, photo, mailing address, geolocation, or payment information. In addition, we may collect your age, gender, date of birth, zip code, hardware configuration, console ID, software products played, survey data, purchases, IP address and the systems you have played on. We may combine the information with your personal information and across other computers or devices that you may use. Prize winners may be required to provide additional information for prize fulfillment.

...

As you can see, that list applies specifically to information you provide to Take2 voluntarily so Take2 can complete your purchase or place you on a mailing list. As it says, "The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis."

 

The privacy policy also lists exactly what is collected by the game as well is how data is handled and the limited circumstances it may be shared, such as a court order. I'd suggest that everyone take a look at it instead of allowing themselves to be misled by videos or posts making such baseless claims.

[Jimbodiah]

Yeah, keep dreaming.

[hbk314]

5 minutes ago, Jimbodiah said:

Yeah, keep dreaming.

Well what was your goal in posting that video?

If you didn't know it was false, you do now.

[Vanamonde]

Please don't attack each other over this. Whatever you think of the EULA, your fellow players are not your enemies. 

[Lisias]

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

The problem with that argument is that I'm pretty sure the legal version of "cover your ass" is "obtain permission to do literally anything, then you have a legal defense for them getting mad at you for stuff you did."  The original goal may be just protection against silly people getting upset over reasonable actions, or trolls mad you banned their troll account etc., but the method is still pretty pernicious. [edit:  And it's an extremely short step for a for-profit to company to say "hey, look at this thing I now have, how can I monetize this?"]

I think the problem is not exactly against my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor. If I'm right (and it's a big if), I'm just describing a fact, not influencing on it.

But... If you mean "the problem with you being right", yeah. I agree.

Companies needs money, or their employees won't eat. So, yeah. They will monetize somehow - directly or indirectly. It's the companies' nature to do it - they would not exist otherwise. It's up to us, knowing this, to "counter-act" somehow in order to reach an equilibrium.

That said, companies are not living entities. They are a collection of living entities - people - and these people, besides being part of the company, are not the company. Once the people that wrote (or adopted) the EULA leave, the reason they had to choose such EULA are gone too. And forgotten.

So, even by having the best intentions of the World, and firmly fighting against any abuse allowed by the EULA, these guys sooner or later will leave. They will get promoted, they will get fired or, sadly, some will pass away. And the people that will replace them will inherit the EULA, but not the reason and intents. "Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus." 

And its exactly there where the problem lays.

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

Having said that, I do not trust that video at all.  Maybe they decided not to read the part where the third party businesses only get info necessary to run KSP, or governments only get info when they have a search warrant, etc.  The closing statement betrays the video as obviously propaganda:  "Are you on the side that just doesn't care about privacy, or are you on the side that cares whether companies are taking advantage of you" is only a slight exaggeration of what he said. 

I didn't reached the end of the video. Once I realized the (lack of) validable facts and useful opinion, I could not find the mood to keep watching this. I had intuited (and you confirmed it) that they would appeal to the mob as argument - frankly, a device commonly used by who know he had not valid arguments at hand.

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

This is the first I'm hearing about the EULA.  I may look into it, but right now the evidence I have is little more than wild finger-pointing. 

The problem with the finger-pointing is assuming that because someone is being finger-pointed, he's innocent. It's possible to slander a criminal.

Finger-pointing is evidence of lack of arguments and proof, not evidence of innocence.

Where I wrote "I think the problem is not exactly against my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor.", please read "I think the problem is not exactly my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor.".

I'm currently unable to edit this post, even by posting it a few seconds ago.

Curiously, consecutive posting is still being correctly merged. :-)

[FinalFan]

31 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I think the problem is not exactly against my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor. If I'm right (and it's a big if), I'm just describing a fact, not influencing on it.

But... If you mean "the problem with you being right", yeah. I agree.

Companies needs money, or their employees won't eat. So, yeah. They will monetize somehow - directly or indirectly. It's the companies' nature to do it - they would not exist otherwise. It's up to us, knowing this, to "counter-act" somehow in order to reach an equilibrium.

That said, companies are not living entities. They are a collection of living entities - people - and these people, besides being part of the company, are not the company. Once the people that wrote (or adopted) the EULA leave, the reason they had to choose such EULA are gone too. And forgotten.

So, even by having the best intentions of the World, and firmly fighting against any abuse allowed by the EULA, these guys sooner or later will leave. They will get promoted, they will get fired or, sadly, some will pass away. And the people that will replace them will inherit the EULA, but not the reason and intents. "Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus." 

And its exactly there where the problem lays.

I didn't reached the end of the video. Once I realized the (lack of) validable facts and useful opinion, I could not find the mood to keep watching this. I had intuited (and you confirmed it) that they would appeal to the mob as argument - frankly, a device commonly used by who know he had not valid arguments at hand.

The problem with the finger-pointing is assuming that because someone is being finger-pointed, he's innocent. It's possible to slander a criminal.

Finger-pointing is evidence of lack of arguments and proof, not evidence of innocence.

Where I wrote "I think the problem is not exactly against my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor.", please read "I think the problem is not exactly my argument, because it is innocuous as an actor.".

I'm currently unable to edit this post, even by posting it a few seconds ago.

Curiously, consecutive posting is still being correctly merged. :-)

I don't really know what "the argument is innocuous as an actor" is supposed to mean. 

You said, "Most of them just don't realize the exact meaning of what they are doing themselves, they are doing it because everybody else is doing it, and that's all.  It's mined field - by reacting, you essentially are "accusing" them of what them can do, but they receive it as an "accusation" over what they intended to do: two different things in their minds - and then the offense became agravated."

If they say, "yes we are asking for all these permissions to do whatever we want, but we won't use it for more than x and y!" the problem with that claim is that they are a for-profit company and cannot be trusted to voluntarily forgo the rest of the alphabet.  So, for practical purposes, the "accusation" you referred to is indeed justified.  What the hypothetical company intended to do was indeed grab all those permissions that they cannot be trusted to not monetize, as you agree.  Just because they did not necessarily intend to cash in immediately doesn't invalidate the objection.  While the accusation may still cause offense, it's still warranted. 

On the finger-pointing, I agree.  If you shoot into a dark target practice range, you're not guaranteed to miss all the targets, but the opposite is also true. 

P.S.  Why the heck would a logged-in user need to be hit with a captcha test? 

[sarbian]

7 hours ago, hbk314 said:

As you can see, that list applies specifically to information you provide to Take2 voluntarily so Take2 can complete your purchase or place you on a mailing list. As it says, "The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis."

How is this voluntarily when some info are sent automatically when the game starts ? I agree that some info are needed to handle a store or forum but the information about when your launch the game, how long your played, your PC config and more are not sent voluntarily at all. The game used to ask you before collecting anything and they removed that switch without mentioning it and even added more information collection.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by sarbian

[klgraham1013]

3 hours ago, sarbian said:

How is this voluntarily when some info are sent automatically when the game starts ? I agree that some info are needed to handle a store or forum but the information about when your launch the game, how long your played, your PC config and more are not sent voluntarily at all. The game used to ask you before collecting anything and they removed that switch without mentioning it and even added more information collection.

 

It's almost like consumers don't actually have a say in these "contracts" at all.

[hbk314]

6 hours ago, sarbian said:

How is this voluntarily when some info are sent automatically when the game starts ? I agree that some info are needed to handle a store or forum but the information about when your launch the game, how long your played, your PC config and more are not sent voluntarily at all. The game used to ask you before collecting anything and they removed that switch without mentioning it and even added more information collection.

 

That information isn't personal information.

[Lisias]

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

I don't really know what "the argument is innocuous as an actor" is supposed to mean. 

Language barrier on the bitting. =/

Arguments, when right, doesn't change anything. By arguing about the colour of the skies, you don't change the fact it is blue due the scattering from nitrogen and oxygen. Things will just go as it should do.

But arguments, when wrong and prevalent, will eventually triggers a series of mislead actions. See that "Flat Earth" hysteria.

In a way or another, the argument itself is not the problem. It's the people listening to the argument that causes trouble.

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

If they say, "yes we are asking for all these permissions to do whatever we want, but we won't use it for more than x and y!" the problem with that claim is that they are a for-profit company and cannot be trusted to voluntarily forgo the rest of the alphabet.  So, for practical purposes, the "accusation" you referred to is indeed justified.  What the hypothetical company intended to do was indeed grab all those permissions that they cannot be trusted to not monetize, as you agree.  Just because they did not necessarily intend to cash in immediately doesn't invalidate the objection.  While the accusation may still cause offense, it's still warranted. 

Yeah. Almost it. I think you miss some minor points, but essentially, that's it.

What is missing from your conclusions is: you can thrust people, it's companies that should not be thrusted. As a sad (and expensive) example, we have Apple. Since Job's death, my experience on MacOS had gone down the tubes. Epically. Jobs was the one that was keeping Apple on rails.

It's the same on every company. 

About accusations, it's possible to accuse a innocent man for a true crime. If the crime wasn't committed yet, it's even easier to get away with that.

Yes, once the company has all the agreements they need, sooner or later it will monetize it for sure. And this is not necessarily a bad thing, because we only have their services available due exactly this fact. It's a bad thing when such monetizing hurts us, the customers. 

So, when "accusing" a company of something that it might do in the future, ideally we take some cautions to prevent that the people that are part of the company today does get burnt in the process. We would be probably harming the very people that would help us to fix the situation.

12 hours ago, FinalFan said:

P.S.  Why the heck would a logged-in user need to be hit with a captcha test? 

My best guess is to prevent mass editing/deleting of content. Appears to be a way to prevent automated abuse. Very annoying, but unfortunately needed. 

8 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

It's almost like consumers don't actually have a say in these "contracts" at all.

Yes, we have. It's only a single word, but it's the most powerful word in the World (pun not intended =P).

It's "NO".

Say 'NO' too few, and you are screwed. Say 'NO' too much, and they are screwed. Since nobody wants to be screwed, we must find that "sweet spot" where everybody can be happy (or at least, the less unhappy possible). I call this the "NO enough" point.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Lisias
typos. argh (and one missing key argument added) and a false cognate fixed.

[LoSBoL]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Lisias said:

 Yes, we have. It's only a single word, but it's the most powerful word in the World (pun not intended =P).

It's "NO".

Say 'NO' too few, and you are screwed. Say 'NO' too much, and they are screwed. Since nobody wants to be screwed, we must find that "sweet spot" where everybody can be happy (or at least, the less unhappy possible). I call this the "NO enough" point.

Ehm… I think that there might have been enough "NO"'s to get notice, did anyone already notice both EULA and Privacy Policy have been updated on the 8th of may?

The whole dreaded 'We may collect all your personal information' has been scraped and replaced by;

"INFORMATION COLLECTION & USAGE

By installing and using the Software, you consent to the information collection and usage terms set forth in this section and Licensor's Privacy Policy, including (where applicable) (i) the transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection; (ii) the public display of your data, such as identification of your user-created content or displaying your scores, ranking, achievements, and other gameplay data on websites and other platforms; (iii) the sharing of your gameplay data with hardware manufacturers, platform hosts, and Licensor's marketing partners; and (iv) other uses and disclosures of your personal information or other information as specified in the above-referenced Privacy Policy, as amended from time to time. If you do not want your information used or shared in this manner, then you should not use the Software.

For the purposes all data privacy issues, including the collection, use, disclosure, and transfer of your personal information and other information, the Privacy Policy located at www.take2games.com/privacy, as amended from time to time, takes precedence over any other statement in this Agreement."

 

Please ignore this post, its fake news because I did not read properly, the above statement has been in the EULA since januari 2018 and has not changed since

Edited May 29, 2018 by LoSBoL
Rectification