Azimech

Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

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4 hours ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Banking information, is obviously for things like online transactions, Geolocation is usefull for things like knowing into which servers they should send you and others. ZipCode something something physical mail,  First and Last name, don't right now know what exactly what where it is used again but in know it has practical use for the customer. 
One simply shouldn't start fear mongering because they
could do something

When profiling your customers it's really, really, really nice to know that your data is based on unique customers, not on duplicate sets of data. First/Last name are a way of determining that. Along other things.

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29 minutes ago, Galileo said:

I'm not mad, I'm just stating that no, nothing has changed and nothing is likely to change. Things don't work like that or that quickly. 
And lets not try to play a victim card here, I have nothing against you, I just happen to not agree with you and don't like the hysteria you are trying to cause over nothing.

What hysteria? I'm saying the EULA gives Take Two the ability to take whatever they want off your computer I'm just saying they will. A hacker could compromise it the hack KSP users it's a legitimate threat. What Hysteria. 

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1 hour ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

What hysteria? I'm saying the EULA gives Take Two the ability to take whatever they want off your computer I'm just saying they will. A hacker could compromise it the hack KSP users it's a legitimate threat. What Hysteria. 

That hysteria. That hysteria right there ^, and at this point, I think you are trolling. The EULA has been explained to you multiple times, maybe not 100% correctly, but in a reasonable way and in a way that makes sense. You refuse to see these logical explanations for what they are, and instead continue to derail threads with fearmongering. You’re creating scenarios about “hackers” now, in an attempt to validate your paranoia, but hackers can hack your information on any platform, regardless of a EULA, right? Why not go fearmonger on Applebee’s or Target’s customer site? After all, the data they collected was hacked, correct? So why not go boycott ALL retail stores and restaurants because “hackers could use them to get your data”? By your logic, you should be.

That won’t continue the hollow vendetta against TT that so many blindly push, though, now will it? 

Edited by Galileo

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On 3/7/2018 at 6:18 PM, Derb said:

I've been saying this since the beginning and it felt like I was shouting into the void - half the time the people I reply to to explain this don't reply back, and continue to post about how the new EULA infringes on author's rights, instead of telling me what about the information I've posted they don't believe or question. Thank the gods i'm not alone.

Well, apart from the slim chance they'd force you to argue the format change via Part Tools constituted something more in court, this has been the case since the beginning of the argument.  However, when the EULA popped up in 1.4 it made it abundantly clear it applies ONLY to the software that comes packaged with said EULA, aka, NOT Part Tools, so that last tiny loophole went away in my opinion.

And let's face it, it's all pretty standard stuff.

The other "concerning" bits indemnify them for sending some info back, aka collecting info on the systems running their game.  I think this is generally OK, as people have looked at the content (thanks Sarbian) and it's pretty darn benign.  I think they should have made that Opt In, not so much because I think it's evil, but because some countries will have laws about it and require it to be opt in.

So, I'm going to act as if nothing changed in Mod Ownership/Licensing.  If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate some word from T2 on the matter, but until then, I'm going to continue modding (at a glacial pace) as before.  Except right now.  Updating to 1.4.0 is daft.

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5 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

The EULA says they can take it off your device.

It has to say that, because you would be using your device to give them that info, and because the game sends info about the hardware and OS it's being played on, as we saw when the other person intercepted the data it sent back.  There is no evidence at all to suggest they have any sort of hidden code crawling your machine to take data off of it.  The only evidence is actually pointing to them not doing that, since they use the same EULA in other games and they are NOT using it to allow themselves to search around your personal folders to collect data

I absolutely agree that they should have done a better job tailoring this to KSP to avoid confusion, but jumping to the conclusion that they're crawling your PC for data is a massive over reaction.

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12 hours ago, Eleusis La Arwall said:

Propably I'm overthinking this but I can't stop thinking about it: So when I upload a screenshot of KSP to imgur, I accept imgurs ToS and thereby grant Imgur Inc. a non-exclusive, irrevokeable license to use that image. Am I able/allowed to grant an exclusive, irrevokeable license to use said image as required by TTIs ToS?

I was thinking about that today too, because I was surprised that (as far as I can remember) nobody had brought up this particular issue in the thread before now.  I think it's probably the other way around from how you wrote it: by creating the screenshot in the first place, you automatically grant TT an exclusive license to use it, so you're not allowed to grant another usage license to Imgur when you upload the screenshot there.

It's unlikely (though plausible) that TT wants to take over all distribution of user-created content.  It seems more likely that they'll "look the other way" in most cases and allow you to post your content elsewhere, but if you create something they don't like, they'll assert their exclusive rights to force you to stop distributing it.

Interestingly, the software EULA says you grant an exclusive license to user-created content, but the online services TOS's "License to the Company" clause says you grant a non-exclusive license for user-generated content.  Is "user-generated content" the same as "user-created content"?  If you take a screenshot and then post it on the forum, does the exclusive license (that you grant via the game's EULA) turn into a non-exclusive license (that you grant afterward via the forum's TOS)?  Or do you violate the EULA's exclusive license clause by granting an additional, non-exclusive one?  Of course, the TOS's "Submissions" clause says that you grant an exclusive license to "any submissions you submit to the Company of any nature whatsoever", which might just supersede the part about licensing of UGC specifically.  On the other hand, you can't actually post an image file to the forum — you have to host it somewhere else (like Imgur), and the forum just holds a URL reference to it.  So maybe it's impossible to post a screenshot on the forum in a way that actually complies with the EULA.

Some people have been saying that this is all just boilerplate and TT isn't really going to enforce these terms in most cases.  That may be true, but the license is still offensive, and is likely to have a chilling effect on players and modders even if the offensive parts aren't enforced, just because they could be in the future.  The one-size-fits-all license also comes across as lazy: TT spokespeople have said they're enthusiastic about KSP and its modding community, but if the company couldn't be bothered to write a license that actually respects and supports the KSP community, it's hard to take the spokespeople seriously.  When I see EULA terms that talk about "car designs" and "the included CD-ROM or DVD-ROM" in a download-only game about rockets, it tells me that TT doesn't really care about KSP or any other game individually; they're all just assets in a portfolio, bricks in a wall, unimportant beyond how much revenue they bring in.

In the interest of "standing up and being counted": I'm not a big-time modder, but I've contributed to a number of mods (mostly MM patches, plus two small MKS parts).  I have a few additional part ideas that I'd started working on.  But going forward, I won't be contributing any more as long as it appears that the exclusive-license and unlimited-use-without-attribution UCC/UGC terms may apply to mods, because I think those terms are unconscionable and I don't want to have them hanging over my head.  And although I'd planned to buy Making History as soon as it's released, the new EULA has made me rethink that: I'm going to wait to see what happens with the modding community, because if modding dies off (e.g. because other modders feel the same way I do), then I'm not really interested in playing KSP anymore, and if I'm not playing KSP then there's no point in buying an expansion for it.

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2 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

However, when the EULA popped up in 1.4 it made it abundantly clear it applies ONLY to the software that comes packaged with said EULA, aka, NOT Part Tools, so that last tiny loophole went away in my opinion.

Are you referring to the "contributions through use of the software" phrasing?  I don't think that's quite as clear-cut as you make it sound.  Here's the interpretation that I'm worried TT could plausibly argue:

  • KSP "allows you to create" Add-Ons (aka "mods") by being specifically designed to load custom content, and by having a public API that programmers can use to interface with the game.
  • By creating Add-On content that is specifically intended to be loaded by KSP, by writing code that links to the KSP API and producing data files in KSP-specific formats (.cfg and .mu), and (in practically all cases) by actually running KSP to test that your Add-On content works correctly, you are creating your content "through use of the Software".
  • Therefore, Add-On content is subject to the EULA's User-Created Content license grant.

Under this interpretation, it doesn't matter whether you use PartTools.  You could write your .mu files in a hex editor, but you're still creating them specifically for use with KSP, and testing them by running the game.

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2 hours ago, Wyzard said:

Under this interpretation, it doesn't matter whether you use PartTools.  You could write your .mu files in a hex editor, but you're still creating them specifically for use with KSP, and testing them by running the game.

Too lazy to keep repeating myself:

 

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2 hours ago, Wyzard said:

Are you referring to the "contributions through use of the software" phrasing?  I don't think that's quite as clear-cut as you make it sound.  Here's the interpretation that I'm worried TT could plausibly argue:

  • KSP "allows you to create" Add-Ons (aka "mods") by being specifically designed to load custom content, and by having a public API that programmers can use to interface with the game.
  • By creating Add-On content that is specifically intended to be loaded by KSP, by writing code that links to the KSP API and producing data files in KSP-specific formats (.cfg and .mu), and (in practically all cases) by actually running KSP to test that your Add-On content works correctly, you are creating your content "through use of the Software".
  • Therefore, Add-On content is subject to the EULA's User-Created Content license grant.

Under this interpretation, it doesn't matter whether you use PartTools.  You could write your .mu files in a hex editor, but you're still creating them specifically for use with KSP, and testing them by running the game.

Under this interpretation, ownership still doesn't transfer - you are missing a key part of that clause.

Quote

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive and agree never to assert any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor's and other players' use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. This license grant to Licensor, and terms above regarding any applicable moral rights, will survive any termination of this Agreement.

Loading content created outside the software into the software doesn't generate copyright interest. Putting a DVD in my player couldn't transfer the copyright to the DVD player manufacturer, even if they had such a EULA, because doing so does not add copyrightable content to already copyrighted content, and thus does not a derivative work create.

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It's also people thinking EULAs are the law. Just because the writers throw everything in the EULA doesn't mean they can have it.

Incidentally can someone in presumably the US explain the significance of a social security number?

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25 minutes ago, Van Disaster said:

It's also people thinking EULAs are the law. Just because the writers throw everything in the EULA doesn't mean they can have it.

Incidentally can someone in presumably the US explain the significance of a social security number?

Basically, we are given a unique number at birth, used for tracking benefits and other identification purposes. If someone with malicious intent was to get a hold of your social security #, they could buy a house, get a car, take out a loan, eat your lunch and dinner too, all in your name, basically screwing your credit/life up. Identity theft is a big deal in the United States, but I’m sure it is everywhere.

 

 

(Oh gosh, have I stoked the fires of conspiracy? :D ) 

Edited by Galileo

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I researched for a long time where did the privacy setting went. I researched whether game actually reports, and what I found is for disconcerting topic of it's own. Suffice to say it's no longer basic hw information. Respect for privacy is one of reasons I bought this game, and not a small one.

7 hours ago, Galileo said:

…Identity theft is a big deal in the United States, but I’m sure it is everywhere. (Oh gosh, have I stoked the fires of conspiracy? :D ) 

Yes, you definitely did. Because it's not everywhere.

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2 minutes ago, radonek said:

what I found is for disconcerting topic of it's own. Suffice to say it's no longer basic hw information.

This is what firewalls are for, calm down and block it if it concerns you.

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19 minutes ago, radonek said:

I researched for a long time where did the privacy setting went. I researched whether game actually reports, and what I found is for disconcerting topic of it's own. Suffice to say it's no longer basic hw information. Respect for privacy is one of reasons I bought this game, and not a small one.

Yes, you definitely did. Because it's not everywhere.

You are concerned because they are retrieving your OS and pc specs? 

 

Edited by Galileo

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13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

The EULA says they can take it off your device.

How exactly would they do that?

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2 hours ago, Galileo said:

Basically, we are given a unique number at birth, used for tracking benefits and other identification purposes. If someone with malicious intent was to get a hold of your social security #, they could buy a house, get a car, take out a loan, eat your lunch and dinner too, all in your name, basically screwing your credit/life up. Identity theft is a big deal in the United States, but I’m sure it is everywhere. ) 

Interesting. We're given a unique number here when we're 16, literally only for social security transactions though. Everything else has it's own unique number, I don't know how many I have by now... good luck trying to dig up all of them, even I don't know half of them.

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13 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

How exactly would they do that?

There are people saying that KSP is now scanning your machine including your folders outside the game and looking for your personal information to send back to TT/Squad.  Have a look through the threads discussing this here and you'll see it, and there are people doing it on Steam too.  Even after someone posted the information it's sending back after he intercepted it, and it clearly showed it's not doing that.  There's no evidence at all of hidden malicious ability, but people have jumped directly to that conclusion.

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15 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:
13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

The EULA says they can take it off your device.

How exactly would they do that?

ROFL, they can try...
Repo man knocking on the door?
Asking the NSA for a windows backdoor so they can remote delete it?
I think not. EULAs like this are works of fiction.
 

2 minutes ago, AngryBadger said:

There are people saying that KSP is now scanning your machine including your folders outside the game and looking for your personal information to send back to TT/Squad.

These "people"  clearly do not know how to capture such activity, or they would see that there is none. Over here we call this FUD.
Just for lols, (and it's slow) I just started KSP under strace. It shows nothing of the sort. Expected accesses to system libraries, that's it.
Perhaps this is a problem specific to the Windows build... In which case you have bigger things to worry about - Windows 10 is spyware.

6 minutes ago, AngryBadger said:

There's no evidence at all of hidden malicious ability, but people have jumped directly to that conclusion.

People are stupid. And gullible.

 

Incidentally, if you do want to block the analytics for some reason: echo -e '127.0.0.1 cdp.cloud.unity3d.com\n127.0.0.1 api.redshell.io' >> /etc/hosts'
Or just block all outgoing traffic from the KSP executable in your firewall. Iptables has --cmd-owner, dunno about windows.

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21 minutes ago, AngryBadger said:

There are people saying that KSP is now scanning your machine including your folders outside the game and looking for your personal information to send back to TT/Squad.  Have a look through the threads discussing this here and you'll see it, and there are people doing it on Steam too.  Even after someone posted the information it's sending back after he intercepted it, and it clearly showed it's not doing that.  There's no evidence at all of hidden malicious ability, but people have jumped directly to that conclusion.

LOL

Well if they want to TRY to scan my machine they are welcome to try! I'm equipped to prevent such things, as we all SHOULD be.

Having said that, I suspect that such a scheme would be beyond the capabilities of the programmers at TT. Game development is a high art, to be sure, but it is not the same art as "hacking."

In fact, I would imagine that the only really viable means to carry out such hypothetical "scanning" would be if an application installed itself with administrator privileges and then commandeered the network port and began transmitting the contents of every single byte on all connected disks; which is pretty much impossible.

Software to to scan through all those hard drives to try to find useful information like banking data MIGHT exist, but I doubt it. If it did exist, I am confident it would require far more infrastructure than could be concealed on the average end-users machine. Not to mention the enormous burden that would be placed on the users network.

Even without a proper end-user security setup, such a "hack" would cause so many symptoms on end-users machines that it would reveal itself very soon.

ADDIT: what most non-technical people don't know: MOST high-value hacks are "inside jobs." Massive data rakes that just pull in everything are pretty much useless and "filters" to sift through EVERYTHING and only find the "good bits" are not an easy thing to pull off. Instead, you dupe users into GIVING you their information in a text entry cell. You gain access to a database that has the data you want for hundreds or thousands of people already nicely configured in a tabular format, that sort of thing.

Edited by Diche Bach

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2 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

In fact, I would imagine that the only really viable means to carry out such hypothetical "scanning" would be if an application installed itself with administrator privileges and then commandeered the network port and began transmitting the contents of every single byte on all connected disks; which is pretty much impossible.

Nah, unless sandboxed KSP can read all the files readable by the user executing it, so a simple text search of everything in $HOME / %USERPROFILE% would suffice.
The problem is that no sane developer stores sensitive information in unencrypted files, so unless you keep your CC deets and SS# in a text file on your desktop...

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1 minute ago, steve_v said:

Nah, unless sandboxed KSP can read all the files readable by the user executing it, so a simple text search of everything in $HOME / %USERPROFILE% would suffice.
The problem is that no sane developer stores sensitive information in unencrypted files, so unless you keep your CC deets and SS# in a text file on your desktop...

But even if you were storing your data like that, in order for it to a problem in thise case KSP would actually have to be scanning your system and mining your data.  There's no proof of this at all, not even in their other games that use a similar EULA, but still people are calling it spyware, seems unfair to me until someone actually proves that it is crawling your machine for your info.

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1 minute ago, AngryBadger said:

There's no proof of this at all, not even in their other games that use a similar EULA, but still people are calling it spyware, seems unfair to me until someone actually proves that it is crawling your machine for your info.

Indeed. And in my case I have proven to my satisfaction that it is not. 'tis not particularly difficult to find out what files an application is accessing.

Edited by steve_v

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It doesn't help that Squad isn't really saying anything.  I've heard the defense of "They need to talk to their lawyers to say the right thing" or something.  Is it really that hard to say "Come on, guys.  Seriously?  We're not gathering your personal info.  Cool your jets."

KSP isn't spyware, but Squad's silence is giving people ammunition.

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Just now, klgraham1013 said:

It doesn't help that Squad isn't really saying anything.  I've heard the defense of "They need to talk to their lawyers to say the right thing" or something.  Is it really that hard to say "Come on, guys.  Seriously?  We're not gathering your personal info.  Cool your jets."

KSP isn't spyware, but Squad's silence is giving people ammunition.

Innocent until proven less than innocent, etc? it's on us to prove them guilty, and there's no evidence.

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