Gorman

So what's the next DLC going to be about?

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14 minutes ago, Eric S said:

Totally different type of game, so I don't think the comparison works.  The problem is that KSP is all about a few precisely timed moments.  It doesn't matter if you don't precisely time your presence for a building completion.  Turning up too late for a capture burn, on the other hand, is bad.  Turning up too late for an intercept maneuver, possibly worse.

Second, KSP is more about that one mission than CoC is about that one building.  Saying you have to go do something else while your building completes is completely expected in that type of game.  In KSP, that isn't the expectation.

Finally, yes, I've done other things while waiting for a ship to transfer to the Mun.  The problem is, the only thing that isn't mostly waiting for the right time to do something would be atmospheric flight or launching to orbit.  I'm not that interested in atmospheric flight, and launching non-stop just to have something to do would be intensely mind-numbing.

Not saying that that kind of game mechanic can't work, just saying that it's not remotely appropriate to KSP.

It seems incredible hard to think outside the box.

Take a look at RemoteTech. If the game runs on a server, it means that things can execute without a player logged on. You can set up maneuvering nodes and have them executed automatically. Perhaps there's a microtransaction involved with it, perhaps not (it's an incredibly good example of a microtransaction you don't have to pay, but it just so much more conventient).

A server-driven multi-play KSP would also not focus on the things you do on stand-alone play. Doom and Player Unknown Battlegrounds are both FPS (well, kinda) games, but with an entirely different in-game dynamic. But I can see your objection there. They are two different games, totally not comparable with each other. Fine. Microsoft Flight Simulator. Better example. Usually played alone, but you can also do it multiplayer. Totally different experience. And yes, people fly planes transpacific and transatlantic in real time. It's not played the same as single player in multiplayer. It's played, and this may come as a shock, with an emphasis on playing together with other enthusiasts.

A server-driven KSP multiplay environment can be the same thing. It's not about launching whackjob-style spacecraft. It's about cooperating with others, perhaps even competing with others in a team. It also doesn't have to be a single-world server as in World of Warcraft. Maybe you start a new game every month or so, as in Travian. Maybe there's a challenge that launches every week. The winner of the challenge will get some in-game currency (let's call it "space bucks"). A Jool challenge might run in normal time Tuesday to Sunday and will run for 6 hours on 1000× speed (or whatever it takes) on Mondays, automatically executing maneuvering nodes.

Don't be boring and think of stock KSP when you think of multiplayer. Think of ways to make it possible. Think of opportunities it offers to monetize the game without antagonizing the players. That's what I would do, if I were Squad.

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2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

A server-driven KSP multiplay environment can be the same thing. It's not about launching whackjob-style spacecraft. It's about cooperating with others, perhaps even competing with others in a team. It also doesn't have to be a single-world server as in World of Warcraft. Maybe you start a new game every month or so, as in Travian. Maybe there's a challenge that launches every week. The winner of the challenge will get some in-game currency (let's call it "space bucks"). A Jool challenge might run in normal time Tuesday to Sunday and will run for 6 hours on 1000× speed (or whatever it takes) on Mondays, automatically executing maneuvering nodes.

Don't be boring and think of stock KSP when you think of multiplayer. Think of ways to make it possible. Think of opportunities it offers to monetize the game without antagonizing the players. That's what I would do, if I were Squad.

 

You and I are thinking totally different things when it comes to multiplayer KSP.  I'm thinking personally run servers, you seem to be aiming towards persistent (or at least semi-persistent) centrally operated servers.  I'm just not interested in what you're pitching.  And for what it's worth, to me, KSP already isn't about launching whackjob-style craft.

And yes, I get the idea that it would be about teamwork.  Get together with friends, plan and start a multi-craft mission to Duna (or Jool, or whatever), get the craft into a transfer orbit, then what, make an appointment with everyone to get back together in several months?  Or schedule it around "warp windows" like you mention?  I can see where getting rid of player-controlled warp might be necessary in shared persistent worlds that spanned more than one group of players, but as I said, not interested.  It would be a case of start something, and then go find something else to do until the game catches up.  Sorry, not living my life around a game.

It really comes down to that.  The whole timewarp issue is a silly argument in the case of personally run servers, because in that case, warping is not the technical issue that is keeping us from having multiplayer.

We could argue which method would be more in keeping of the spirit of KSP, but even that misses the point.  It comes down to which method would be more profitable for Take 2.  Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be interested in your idea, and while I'm not going to generalize that too far, you can probably guess that I don't think it would be the more popular implementation.  Which still kind of misses the point, as popular and profitable aren't tightly correlated.

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On 3/14/2018 at 1:16 PM, Kerbart said:

There are two aspects to Making History:

  • Parts
  • The Mission system

The two work together; without the missions, MH would simply be a part-pack without generating much incentive to buy it; without parts, MH wouldn’t be offering enough to be attractive.

So, I’m going to assume we’ll see something similar in the future. A set of parts, and an in-game extension that makes the parts more valuable and emphasizes the expansion character or the mod.

candidates for that could be along the lines of:

  • Robotics, and a programming console for it
  • Basebuilding, and some kind of Elite kind of economy to fly resources between those bases
  • RemoteTech, and programmable cores (doesn’t exclude the robotics in another round)
  • Etc.

Another option is a multiplayer service, but I suspect if we ever see that it will be seperate from expansions (albeit a good money maker for TT if implemented wisely. Keyword wisely).

While I love the robotics aspect, it would nearly have to be a Zachtronics game instead of a Squad game to really work (or possibly back in the depths of time and Muse software).  Even if Squad could pull it off, I can't imagine Take2 signing off on that, you are looking at a microniche (programming games) as a DLC of a niche (rocket science games).

It would certainly follow the "make a game about doing something hard" and presumably "strip the hardness down to a manageable level" that is KSP.  Unfortunately I'm sure the independence that allowed Squad to allow Harvester to make his crazy game died when Squad sold the game to Take2.  They will demand cliched and obvious DLC.  Expect a multiplayer announcement with likely eternal delays, cancellations, and general unhappiness.

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I wants aliens and things to shoots ats them!  Destructable bases...    Buildable assembly buildings.   Space station based assembly arrays.   Space monsters.   And a Death Star!   Light Sabers too!!!!

Maybe they could try to merge Subnautica game play into KSP.   Space monsters everywhere!  Especially around Jool.

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25 minutes ago, Red Thought said:

I wants aliens and things to shoots ats them!  Destructable bases...    Buildable assembly buildings.   Space station based assembly arrays.   Space monsters.   And a Death Star!   Light Sabers too!!!!

Maybe they could try to merge Subnautica game play into KSP.   Space monsters everywhere!  Especially around Jool.

Sorry to crush your dreams, but that's entirely not the point of KSP. The reason I like Kerbal is because of the semi-realistic space theme and how it's possible to recreate real missions, but with cute green guys along for the ride.

I'd rather KSP remained as a 'pacifist' game with no weapons and a focus on peaceful space exploration.

:):) 

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What I wished to be implemented:

More land locomotion: Add more parts for moving on land, specialized for specific scenario other than "just rolling", such as radially inflatable hovercraft air cushion to travel smoothly from land to water or vice versa, rover wheels that can be toggled to grip the surface to make a proper "rovering" in low gravity world, etc.

More crewable parts that's not cockpit: Currently there's only 4 parts that can contain kerbals and they're not cockpit (2 crew cabins, 1 lab, 1 hitchhicker). Make more parts that have no other purpose other than containing kerbals for those who prefer doing aesthetic work on their craft.

Prototype parts: A feature where you can spend money to do research on already existing parts to improve their characteristic. It's basically making copies a single part but with different characteristic. Each parts have different traits and can have a maximum 10 points for prototype version, with each trait points costs funds and time to develop, there's also limitation of course. For example: I want to improve NERV engine's TWR, each trait points spent on TWR trait improves it by 10%, however, on 5th point, I had to sacrifice another 5 traits to continue, so for example, I sacrificed 5 ISP traits to have 10 (100% more) TWR. Each trait points submitted increased the cost and time it takes to develop the prototype. After the part is completed, you can test the part and asked whether you want to save it or not, when saved, it's named NERV Mk2 and can be selected or deleted from part list when it's no longer needed

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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:09 PM, Gargamel said:

BA-DUM-TSSSS

Ok i lol'd. 

While I think this thread is a bit premature... Squad might appreciate good ideas.

It'd have to be a gameplay mechanic not available with mods. 

And yes, they know a lot pf people want multi player. 

 a gameplay machanic not available with mods?

I can only think of a story mode or a rival space center.Pretty much everything can be introduced by mods

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Something to do on a planet when you get there might be a good idea. Apart from the obvious mountains it does seem a little. ...flat.....

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13 hours ago, KerbolExplorer said:

 a gameplay machanic not available with mods?

I can only think of a story mode or a rival space center.Pretty much everything can be introduced by mods

Built in R&D with mini-games that simulate research?

Kerbal Academy with in game training thingys?

Improved functions and goals for Stations and bases?

A point to aircraft?

 

 

There's TONS of gameplay mechanics that could be improved by a DLC that a mod can't touch because they don't have access to the core code. 

 

We just have to think outside the box. 

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I have a good idea. Right now, in career at least, mission control is where you accept contracts and whatnot. But that's not really a proper 'mission control'. Mission Control should be more like a real mission control, with different stations giving you more info about your mission and spacecraft. The contract stuff should be moved to the Administration building or a new one.

Edited by RealKerbal3x

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On 3/15/2018 at 11:58 PM, Theseus said:

Also, and probably off-topic, but why can't Steam achievements be implemented? I no longer believe in the argument that achievements aren't suitable to what KSP is supposed to be, not when there are tons of milestones and several game modes and missions in the game. It's probably the game I know for which the achievements could be the most varied and interesting (e.g. Leave Kerbin's Atmosphere, Reach Orbit, Land on Duna, Have Ships Landed on Six Different Bodies At the Same Time, Escape Kerbol's Orbit, Return a Kerbal to the Surface of Kerbin Who Has Been to Eelo, Discover all the Easter Eggs in the Game...). 

Absolutely. This game screams out for Steam achievements. I know not everyone sees value in achievements, but others do, and for those people it would be a welcome addition. They are especially useful for those people who find games like this difficult to get into without set goals, as it offers them goals to aim for and continue playing. They are also useful to encourage people to play in different ways, doing things for the achievement instead of playing through parts of the game in the same way since that's what they have become accustomed to doing.

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19 minutes ago, strudo76 said:

Absolutely. This game screams out for Steam achievements. I know not everyone sees value in achievements, but others do, and for those people it would be a welcome addition. 

What prevents such implementation is essentially the high tinkerability and modifiable nature of the KSP's architecture.

Before implementing achievements, they need to find a way to lock out any mods and plugins for the ones that wants such feature, or the Achievements will be easily frauded  - denying the reason for its existence. It's probably the reason Sony doesn't allows mods into PS4'''s KSP.

People that would prefer the plugins, should be locked out the achievement system.

Edited by Lisias
hit Save too soon!

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1 hour ago, strudo76 said:

Absolutely. This game screams out for Steam achievements. I know not everyone sees value in achievements, but others do, and for those people it would be a welcome addition. They are especially useful for those people who find games like this difficult to get into without set goals, as it offers them goals to aim for and continue playing. They are also useful to encourage people to play in different ways, doing things for the achievement instead of playing through parts of the game in the same way since that's what they have become accustomed to doing.

Problem is not everyone uses Steam. This is similar to the Steam Workshop conversion...it’ll be a feature not available to everyone.

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2 hours ago, Lisias said:

What prevents such implementation is essentially the high tinkerability and modifiable nature of the KSP's architecture.

Before implementing achievements, they need to find a way to lock out any mods and plugins for the ones that wants such feature, or the Achievements will be easily frauded  - denying the reason for its existence. It's probably the reason Sony doesn't allows mods into PS4'''s KSP.

People that would prefer the plugins, should be locked out the achievement system.

Not really. It's not like you get anything for getting the achievements. If people fraud them, so be it. Doesn't affect anyone but themselves. That doesn't deny the reason for their existence though. Those who want to achieve them the proper way are still free to do so regardless of what other people do with their games. I think the PS4 situation is a little more complicated as achievements on PS4 do count for something I believe. There are numerous games though that have achievements in the Steam version and not in the console version. I wouldn't like to see achievements disabled just for using mods, as there are several core mods that are almost stock features they get used so much, such a KER. Just having something like that shouldn't disable mods.

1 hour ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Problem is not everyone uses Steam. This is similar to the Steam Workshop conversion...it’ll be a feature not available to everyone.

True, and it's also a feature that not everyone will care about. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I think the workshop conversion is an order above achievements, as that will fragment the modding community, and people may be essentially forced to use whichever modding platform the creator uses if they want to use those mods.

Edited by strudo76

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12 hours ago, strudo76 said:

Not really. It's not like you get anything for getting the achievements. If people fraud them, so be it.

Is not how things work in the Industry.

People like badges and achievements so they can brag about them. Allow them to be cheated, and the thing became valueless. Worse, it devalues your game.

It's not about your opinion on the matter. It's about how customers behave. We have 10 years of online gaming telling us that allowing your achievements to be hacked is receipt for disaster.

12 hours ago, strudo76 said:

I wouldn't like to see achievements disabled just for using mods, as there are several core mods that are almost stock features they get used so much, such a KER. Just having something like that shouldn't disable mods.

There are no separation between "achievement safe" and "achievement unsafe" on the API. So, or you inspect each mod before signing them (Apple Store style) to allow "safe mods" to be installed without disabling achievements, or you just handle them all as unsafe.

Perhaps on KSP 2. But right now, it's unfeasible.

Edited by Lisias
bad grammars. X(

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This discussion of the game's development has been moved to Development Discussions. 

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Going on the "parts + reasons to use them" idea (that I like) I'd say a good DLC idea would be:

Base Game (without DLC):
Revamped planet surfaces with more varied ground scatter and more "easter eggs" that are actually just interesting rocks or things like that, plus a modding hook to allow modders to place things on planet surfaces easily.

DLC Main Idea:
Surface exploration! Don't just land in a biome, take your readings, and take off. Land in a biome, see a nearby interesting structure, get there and take your readings, and maybe learn of another one for more.

DLC Features:
Planning tools for precise landings (Trajectories-like planning, with cones of probability for atmospheric landings. Waypoints in flight. Trajectory lines in flight)
Contracts to investigate nearby anomalies.
Any other reasons to use rovers that you can think of.

DLC Parts:
Small "Rovemate Jr"
Large "Rovemate Sr"
Roll cage (procedural?)
Landing aids like airbags and smaller but stronger sepratrons to stop/slow descent in the final second or two.
Some sort of flipping mechanism that is actually useful and doesn't just flip your rover in the air like all the flipping mechanisms I've designed over the years :)
 

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20 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Problem is not everyone uses Steam. This is similar to the Steam Workshop conversion...it’ll be a feature not available to everyone.

Kind of like slo-motion and achievements on consoles, and cloud saves on Steam?

Edited by klesh

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17 hours ago, Lisias said:

People like badges and achievements so they can brag about them. Allow them to be cheated, and the thing became valueless. Worse, it devalues your game.

They start out valueless. They have no value other than what the player attributes to achieving them. I don't see how it devalues the game either? In what way?

 

17 hours ago, Lisias said:

It's not about your opinion on the matter. It's about how customers behave. We have 10 years of online gaming telling us that allowing your achievements to be hacked is receipt for disaster.

Online gaming is different, as people are actively competing against each other. Of course in that case people will want to look better than the rest. Steam achievements for a single player game are virtually individual only. Sure, they are visible publicly, but I for sure have never even thought of looking up someones achievements for any particular game.

17 hours ago, Lisias said:

There are no separation between "achievement safe" and "achievement unsafe" on the API. So, or you inspect each mod before signing them (Apple Store style) to allow "safe mods" to be installed without disabling achievements, or you just handle them all as unsafe.

I wasn't suggesting there was. I was stating that I don't think using mods should disable the ability to get achievements in any cases.

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1 minute ago, strudo76 said:

They start out valueless. They have no value other than what the player attributes to achieving them. I don't see how it devalues the game either? In what way?

It's not you who needs to see value. It's the vast majority of the gamers.

The achievements are a vanity affair. Some gamers value them because they are "hard" to get. If others manage to get the same achievements by cheating, the achievements loose value for such gamers. And then they got angry by "wasting" their time pursuing such achievements.

It doesn't have to make sense (it doesn't after all). It's a social phenomena that should be detected, studied and accept if you want to stay on this business.

5 minutes ago, strudo76 said:

Online gaming is different, as people are actively competing against each other. Of course in that case people will want to look better than the rest. Steam achievements for a single player game are virtually individual only. Sure, they are visible publicly, but I for sure have never even thought of looking up someones achievements for any particular game.

Steam Achievements are public information. They are like badges, to everyone to see, and are available to be seen on the user's profile.

Its NOT individual only. It's like Medals - condecorated soldiers don't wear they medals while shopping, but you can bet your mouse they will jump into the throat of anyone that would unduly use one.

It's exact the same thing - besides the abyss of importance about the matter.

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On 3/14/2018 at 10:05 PM, Gorman said:

They should definitely expand that part of the game. Currently planes feel useless and just a small bit of fun on the side. In the game, most things you can do more efficiently and less cumbersome using rockets. Maybe what they need is to invent a new race of beings who live on Duna, as opposed to Kerbals. These Dunals or Dunations once discovered may be a bit hostile and send over their UFOs to Kerbin, which could be intercepted and fought with planes :P

I would have to disagree that planes feel useless, I play almost exclusively using SSTOs and I've accomplished missions to Dres and Eeloo, even to an exoplanet mission recently. The thing with SSTOs is that they are a different type of beast to tame than a rocket, meaning quite a few people never bother with them. With a rocket TWR  is almost not a problem, and with enough boosters you can get anywhere, but with a plane you have to make certain design choices to ensure range or TWR which adds a greater degree of challenge. While a DLC that would add more options for planes would be greatly appreciated, I wouldn't go as far to say they feel useless.

As for Duna invasion, I think Squad already said aliens were a no go, and I think adding weapons to KSP would take away from its primary feeling of science and exploration.

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2 hours ago, Lisias said:

Steam Achievements are public information. They are like badges, to everyone to see, and are available to be seen on the user's profile.

 

Not only that, but if your Steam user level is high enough, you start to unlock "Showcases" to display on your profile.  I happen to have unlocked the ability to display 2 showcases on my profile, as shown below.  Of the 15 Showcase types they offer, 1 is for displaying Achievements in general and 1 is for your Rarest Achievements:

EqgYeuX.png

 

Its not something I subscribe to and participate in, to be sure, but its definitely something that motivates a certain type of gamer.  I know some people with completionist tendencies who will play a game several times over so as to unlock all achievements.

Let's also not overlook the fact that KSP on Steam does participate in the Trading Card scene, whereby you can unlock Kerbal emoji and KSP-themed background images for your profile page as well.  AFAIK, those items actually generate revenue, as you can purchase both the trading cards and the subsequent reward items on the Steam Marketplace:

 

1KHvoRo.png

 

 

The point of all this is that KSP does not have parity across all platforms any longer.

 

Edited by klesh

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