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Brainlord’s Petition to Change the EULA


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50 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

For it to transmit anything the software would have to be executing. Anything 'alien' trying to execute on my system would be squashed like a bug before it got launched... and I keep very close watch on what processes run on my system. Don't we all?

I do, but it's getting harder and harder on MS's trash platform of garbageness.  The process list is still there, but now it's deeper than before, and there's a lot more to watch.  My desktop is my last non-Linux system I have, probably gettin' close to it's end now.

I am going to be monitoring KSP a lot more closely nowadays than I did previously... The paranoid types are overreacting, but I share their concerns and will be taking security steps. 

Anyhow, maybe it's time to brush off my OpenGL skills.  How does GNU Space Program sound?

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A KSP specific EULA is what KSP, a game defined by its cult following and community content, needs, else to ignore such a request would be to display an attitude that could end up alienating the very player/developer base that makes this game what it is, leading to a sudden and defined decline of this game's popularity overall. TT, if you're reading this, do try to make an effort to amend the EULA or at least respond to the largest concerns being raised in the OP.

Edited by inigma
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6 minutes ago, Renegrade said:

I do, but it's getting harder and harder on MS's trash platform of garbageness.  The process list is still there, but now it's deeper than before, and there's a lot more to watch.  My desktop is my last non-Linux system I have, probably gettin' close to it's end now.

I am going to be monitoring KSP a lot more closely nowadays than I did previously... The paranoid types are overreacting, but I share their concerns and will be taking security steps. 

Anyhow, maybe it's time to brush off my OpenGL skills.  How does GNU Space Program sound?

I couldn't agree more about Windows... likewise... I have a long running hate affair with it. I only have it on this machine because it came with it new, and I bought it solely for KSP.

As for 'GNU Space Program'; There is of course a version of KSP for Linux, and of course in Linux you could set it up to run in an isolated little world of its own without any real world contact (Virtual Machine) ... think Star Trek TNG, episode 138, "Ship in a bottle".

On this Windows machine, I merely turn Internet Access (wireless) off before running the program, and then turn it back on after I'm done. Inconvenient? Yes. But it does solve the issue... especially being I've not given access permissions to anything new and current save for some old v1.2.2 mods that check for updates (they work fine without being able to).

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14 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Excellent. :D
Lota work though.

Eh, I'm used to working.  I have a 49k line tech demo that never saw the light of day, and a 35k line complete game that's literally for me only.  Making a public release would have a whole bunch of extra motivation above those programs.

The game would be Linux-only at this point, although GPL would allow other people (who have patience for this crap) to port it to DirectLag or *BSD or Macs etc.

1 minute ago, LordFerret said:

I couldn't agree more about Windows... likewise... I have a long running hate affair with it. I only have it on this machine because it came with it new, and I bought it solely for KSP.

I really only have it at this point because MS gave out Win10 licenses for free back in the day and the GPU drivers are all closed-source / trade secret BS, meaning you typically have to use the crappy reference driver (written by moronic chimpanzees, very nasty closed-source stuff) to get 'good' performance and up to date support....

1 minute ago, LordFerret said:

As for 'GNU Space Program'; There is of course a version of KSP for Linux, and of course in Linux you could set it up to run in an isolated little world of its own without any real world contact (Virtual Machine) ... think Star Trek TNG, episode 138, "Ship in a bottle".

Ah no, I mean I'm a programmer of the serious vein.  Although I'm extremely conservative, I can "get 'er done".  As in make a GPL-based space simulator that's accessible.  If I started instantly, it would be C99 / Fixed-pipeline OpenGL (1.2-era) and not have sound.. so gotta brush up on some of the stuff (OpenGL 1.2 wasn't any sort of stumbling block for Minecraft, heh) like sound, and maybe adopt a 3D model format as the 'native' format for the software, and learn how to use Blender.

Anyhow, Squad, or rather, Take-Two, is on a Performance Improvement Plan from hereon in.   If they do any spying shenanigans or get liquidy about my multiple installs, they can consider themselves terminated with cause.

1 minute ago, LordFerret said:

On this Windows machine, I merely turn Internet Access (wireless) off before running the program, and then turn it back on after I'm done. Inconvenient? Yes. But it does solve the issue... especially being I've not given access permissions to anything new and current save for some old v1.2.2 mods that check for updates (they work fine without being able to).

I guess you could instead put a firewall rule in to block outbound connections from the KSP process.  The vanilla firewall does tie in with the process list. I have no idea how reliable it is though.

Unplugging my network is not feasible here as I use a Linux (debian) based fileserver (which used to back up to another fileserver, currently just to some external drives) that stores all my critical data.  Watching NT crunch up an NTFS drive at one point in the past convinced me that wasn't safe, so I keep all the good stuff off-box. 

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7 minutes ago, Renegrade said:

The game would be Linux-only at this point

Sounds like a non-problem to me :)

7 minutes ago, Renegrade said:

DirectLag

ROFL.

Go on, do it. Consider my limited, not a programmer of the serious vein abilities at your disposal.
This would be little Gnus in space suits, right? :P Special helmets for the horns?

 

Edited by steve_v
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8 hours ago, Starman4308 said:

1) While Take Two may be a big company, KSP is a small IP for them. Why should they bother making a separate EULA to soothe the feathers of a few players for a small, small fraction of their customer base?

2) Most of those data items listed (such as geolocation) are a catch-all for things like surveys or prizes. It is not a declaration of intent to collect them, but rather notice that it might be collected as a part of KSP-related activities... and is really mostly just boilerplate from their other IPs.

Do not confused "we may collect" with "we will collect".

3) The third-parties thing may be as benign as "we use this third-party company to secure our data rather than hire our own data-security experts".

4) Historical precedent suggests EULAs are intentionally written to be very broad in scope, to protect the company rather than to declare what they will do. "May collect", not "will collect".

1. Depends how much they care about that section of their customer base. Given that they have a section of the company devoted to small indie games (it's the section handling KSP, I forget the name, sorry), then early access, community heavy games look like something they're planning to get into. So why not write a more appropriate EULA to cover those kinds of games?

2. Possibly. In which case, they could just as well have you agree to them collecting those data items on a per event basis. Want to take part in our 'take a photo of your Jeb plushie in weird locations' competiton and have a chance of winning this prize? Well, we're going to need to collect photographs and geolocation data from you. Sure, it's a little more work for them but it's also much better customer service since it's a lot more transparent and, to use the example I just gave, blindingly obvious why they need those particular data. If they want to take the easy way out and use standard terms - particularly ones where its not really clear that they apply to KSP (see OP), then that's up to them but they shouldn't then be surprised by threads like this.

3. Possibly - so tell us. If nothing else, that third party company might not have a particularly good reputation.

4. Great. But as I said, in this case, I have no personal history of transactions with Take Two, so no particular reason to trust them. Or indeed not trust them - I might be doing them a great disservice. But, I'll take your 'innocent until proven guilty' and raise you a 'caveat emptor'.

8 hours ago, Starman4308 said:

The wall of legalese is a legal document, written by lawyers for lawyers. To be precise in their communications with other lawyers, they may utilize jargon or phrases that mean something very specific in legalese and something different in common parlance.

Furthermore, it's not a negotiated contract. Negotiated contracts between parties of roughly equal standing can involve some give, some take, and a bit of trust. A video game EULA? If they slip and make a mistake, they literally cannot afford to send lawyers to every single customer or even really a small fraction thereof, and in reverse, they cannot afford to be sued by more than a tiny fraction of their customers. $40/copy does not stretch all that far. This is very dissimilar to even a tenant-landlord contract where thousands of dollars wind up transferred, nevermind a major business contract where millions or more may be on the line for a single transaction.

And that right there, is the problem with all EULAs. They're not negotiated, they're not intended for the customers that are being asked to sign and the parties to the contract are of nowhere equal standing. What you say is true but it's also the case that every single customer, or even a really small fraction thereof can't afford to get a lawyer to scrutinise each and every EULA they sign up to. So most of them don't and just click through blindly. Which isn't a great plan because I'm willing to bet that those customers really can't afford to be sued by the company either.

That's why we have (at least in the UK and I presume the US) various forms of consumer protection legislation and its why I stated that I didn't know how much of this EULA would actually stand up in court. And you're right that a video game EULA is a very different to say, a tenancy agreement, in terms of financial value and necessity. If I need to sign that agreement to keep a roof over my head - and I'm going to be throwing a lot of rent money at my landlord anyway, then I may well spend a couple of hundred quid on a lawyer to soothe any worries I may have. Similarly, because folks generally don't have a lot of choice about tenancy agreements, they tend to be fairly heavily regulated and (again in the UK) you'll have access to other sources of reputable information about them that you can consult without needing to go to a lawyer.

A video game EULA - I don't need to sign that agreement at all. I may want to (shiny new game!) but it's certainly not a necessity. And I'm unlikely to spend £200 on lawyer fees before committing to a £40 purchase. So I either trust the company to play reasonable, even if their EULA is anything but - or I decide I can't trust them, or that I don't like their behaviour, and I don't bother buying their product. Now the company may decide that it's not worth their while to earn my trust by giving me a less one-sided EULA to sign, or at least providing a bit of transparency to go with it. Fine - that's their business decision, I respect it (even if I don't like it) and it is possible that I'm blowing this out of proportion.

But if Take Two (in this case) decide it's not worth their while to engage with me, it makes it a very easy decision for me not to engage with them. 

 

Edit: For reference, understanding industry requirements and perspectives, especially when it comes to IP is a big part of my day job. So I do have some perspective on this. But that works both ways - there are some terms in that EULA that I just don't see any reasonable need for at all.

Edited by KSK
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8 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I think it collects it while offline and transmits when your online.

Really?  What evidence do you have for that, or is it just your feeling?

First, KSP doesn't install any other executables which run after the game is shut down.  

Second, assuming that the game itself is checking (it isn't), then it would have to store this information somewhere.  It doesn't

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2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:
10 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I think it collects it while offline and transmits when your online.

Really?  What evidence do you have for that, or is it just your feeling?

its in the  *&%^# EULA:

Information about gameplay may be collected while you are offline and transmitted to the Company when you next connect to the Internet whether or not you are currently logged into your Internet Connection from your console, handheld, mobile device, computer, or other gaming platform. 

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2 minutes ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

Information about gameplay may be collected while you are offline and transmitted to the Company when you next connect to the Internet whether or not you are currently logged into your Internet Connection from your console, handheld, mobile device, computer, or other gaming platform. 

As in; it possibly may be in some scenarios, not; it definitely is doing this with KSP specifically.

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket
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3 minutes ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

Information about gameplay may be collected while you are offline and transmitted to the Company when you next connect to the Internet whether or not you are currently logged into your Internet Connection from your console, handheld, mobile device, computer, or other gaming platform. 

and again, you are ignoring what it actually says.

The most important word you are ignoring is:   may

It does not say "will".  Therefore, there is NO PROOF that it is collecting data and storing it offline.  I'm not saying that they can't, just saying that there is NO PROOF.

If you have any real proof that it is actually doing that, please inform us.  Otherwise, you are just spouting hot air and rumormongering again.

Edit:  Ninja'd by @Rocket In My Pocket

Edited by linuxgurugamer
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4 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

If you have any real proof that it is actually doing that, please inform us. 

Yes, please do.  In fact, I think we should establish some sort of watchdog process for this.   A regular review of the information sent.  Currently, it looks fine based on dumps presented here (although my concerns about MitM remain, and I have a rabid hatred of unauthorized internet usage), but that could change in the future.  I'd definitely like to know if that was the case, because that's instant uninstall and GNU Space Program time.

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13 minutes ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

its in the  *&%^# EULA:

Information about gameplay may be collected while you are offline and transmitted to the Company when you next connect to the Internet whether or not you are currently logged into your Internet Connection from your console, handheld, mobile device, computer, or other gaming platform. 

I developed mobile apps once, and I have used debug tools that collect system information, also analytical tools to tell which parts of the app are the most popular. It was standard practice to collect data and to store it offline in case the mobile wasn't connected to wifi. This is to save from using metered bandwidth services, the users get irate about that.

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Wow, the market for tinfoil hats really seems to be growing!

Anyone want to go in on some aluminum stocks with me? I think we could make a lot of money.

We could even make them ourselves, and sell them on the internet; do a "kick starter" or a "go fund me" sort of a thing? PM me, serious inquiries only please. :rolleyes:

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket
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6 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Wow, the market for tinfoil hats really seems to be growing!

Anyone want to go in on some aluminum stocks with me? I think we could make a lot of money.

We could even make them ourselves, and sell them on the internet; do a kick starter or a go fund me sort of a thing? PM me, serious inquiries only please. :rolleyes:

I'm in, the evidence is overwhelming that everyone  many people want one. (sarcasm alert, or maybe not)

Edited by linuxgurugamer
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46 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

may

Yes, this thread is ABOUT THE EULA! 

They claim they may do these things.

I say "No, you may not."

EDIT: If you give a five year old the keys to your car, he may wrap it around a tree, or maybe not. Do you give him the keys?

Edited by Brainlord Mesomorph
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2 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Anyone want to go in on some aluminum stocks with me? I think we could make a lot of money.

Without knowing and understanding the market, personally - I think you'd lose a lot of money. :wink:

 

"May" is a big word. You need to watch people closely when giving permission to wield it ... tin foil hat or not.

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16 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

Without knowing and understanding the market, personally - I think you'd lose a lot of money. :wink:

 

"May" is a big word. You need to watch people closely when giving permission to wield it ... tin foil hat or not.

Hmm...that sounds exactly like what a competing tinfoil hat salesman would say!

Are you trying to shoehorn in on my business friendo?! :o

 

Lol, seriously though everyone. If we can't agree that it's paranoid, can we at least agree that it's a bit naive? As if Take Two will even respond to any of this, let alone actually make any changes because of it? You can't have your cake and eat it too; if T2 is a big, evil, money grubbing, soulless corporation who wants to twist the EULA so they can steal your wives and daughters...then they definitely don't care what you think about it, and they definitely won't change it due to your concerns and/or protests.

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket
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13 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Hmm...that sounds exactly like what a competing tinfoil hat salesman would say!

Are you trying to shoehorn in on my business friendo?! :o

 

Lol, seriously though everyone. If we can't agree that it's paranoid, can we at least agree that it's a bit naive? As if Take Two will even respond to any of this, let alone actually make any changes because of it? You can't have your cake and eat it too; if T2 is a big, evil, money grubbing, soulless corporation who wants to twist the EULA so they can steal your wives and daughters...then they definitely don't care what you think about it, and they definitely won't change it due to your concerns and/or protests.

I'm not sure what disturbs me more; The potential given T2 with this EULA, or your lack of concern over it... as this is what empowers.

Do I think T2 will respond here? No. But I do know they're watching and listening, I would be too.

T2 is definitely on a marketing mission, there's no doubt about that. A little research on the company can tell you that, a lot of research on the company will open your eyes. When people here first learned that T2 bought KSP, everyone was wondering about things like: how much, who controls what, what's the vision and where's it going. All of this is answered in the company's profile and 1st quarter first quarterly financials filed after acquisition. I know how much was paid... do you? As for future vision, just look at GTA, a prime example.

Edited by LordFerret
improper wording, noted in blue
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I've been looking at your posts, and am rather puzzled about some things.  You say that this thread is about the EULA.  Fair enough.

But then you've made statements and accusations such as the following:

22 hours ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

That will be their admission that it IS spyware.

How is not responding to this thread an admission that it is spyware? 

This:

Quote

I think they may be more attentive when #KSP=Spyware starts showing up on twitter. Which, unless I hear a response will be Friday

Is a threat from you.  It has nothing to do with the contents of the EULA, other than stating that you will be doing certain acts on Friday.  Sure sounds like a threat to me.

This:

Quote

I have not defamed anyone

Not yet, but your previous comment implied that you would be doing something, which in many people's opinion would be slander and defamatory

Again, this:

Quote

I have said that I believe that their refusal to address these legitimate concerns would be a tacit admission that this is spyware. 

is merely you saying something, it is no admission on their part to anything.  Just your wishful thinking

This:

Quote
  5 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:
  13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I think it collects it while offline and transmits when your online.

Really?  What evidence do you have for that, or is it just your feeling?

its in the  *&%^# EULA:

Was my response to @Cheif Operations Director about his claim which I was replying to.  Did you not read the entire post which  I was replying to?

 

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29 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

I'm not sure what disturbs me more; The potential given T2 with this EULA, or your lack of concern over it... as this is what empowers.

Thank you.

That's the point.

39 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If we can't agree that it's paranoid, can we at least agree that it's a bit naive?

On the contrary, it would be naive to give someone permission to do something bad to you,  based solely on the assumption that they won't take you up on it.

29 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:
Quote

I have said that I believe that their refusal to address these legitimate concerns would be a tacit admission that this is spyware. 

is merely you saying something, it is no admission on their part to anything.  Just your wishful thinking

tac·it 
  1. understood or implied without being stated.
Edited by Brainlord Mesomorph
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If you're really concerned with what might be sent from KSP, collect the network traffic and analyze it. If you find something illicit in the communications, I'll be there with the pitchfork too. Otherwise, das macht nichts.

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45 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

I'm not sure what disturbs me more; The potential given T2 with this EULA, or your lack of concern over it... as this is what empowers.

If the CEO of T2 buys a gun, should I be concerned? He has the potential to shoot me now.

41 minutes ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

On the contrary, it would be naive to give someone permission to do something bad to you,  based solely on the assumption that they won't take you up on it.

If you are gonna go around protesting every EULA based on that logic, it might be easier to just be Amish? Learn to churn butter? The EULA you agreed to for every other digital thing you've ever used or bought is no better or worse.

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket
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7 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If the CEO of T2 buys a gun, should I be concerned? He has the potential to shoot me now.

That depends. is he asking for PERMISSION to shoot you? 

7 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

The EULA you agreed to fo every other digital thing you've ever used or bought is no better or worse.

No they aren't. I've read them. (edit: or I didn't agree)

Edited by Brainlord Mesomorph
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