N70

[1.5.0 <-> 1.8.1] Kerbalism v3.2

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20 minutes ago, cnose said:

So wait.... Now the least powerful Antenna, the Communotron mini thing, has super-powerful relay capability that takes precedence over anything else? And the high-gains can now no longer transmit science, only telemetry? Is that right? I have a crummy little lander on the Mun with a deployable low-gain and deployable high-gain. When I click relay to 'yes' on the low-gain (which should not be able to reach Kerbin), all of my satellites around Kerbin suddenly connect to the KSC through the Mun lander's mini antenna. When I stow it away and use only the high-gain, I can control the Mun lander but the data rate says 'none' and I can't transmit any science.

 

I suppose there is a bug in data rate calculation, wich cause this behaviour of high-gain antennas

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35 minutes ago, GRAleX said:

I suppose there is a bug in data rate calculation, wich cause this behaviour of high-gain antennas

The latest .dll in the gitlab fixes the issues I was having. Now to figure out how to get signal from the Mun to other ground stations besides the KSC; still having difficulty with relays.

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1.4.1.1 is now out. Relay ranges should be playable now, as math similar to commnet range calculations is now used for relays

22 minutes ago, cnose said:

The latest .dll in the gitlab fixes the issues I was having. Now to figure out how to get signal from the Mun to other ground stations besides the KSC; still having difficulty with relays.

this should fix that

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@N70 So, is it currently intended that High Gain Antennas can be used as relays? That kind of takes away the whole point of even having Low Gain Antennas, except that you still need one in order to "active" Relay.

The way it was designed was Low Gain to hop around to get a clear connection to Kerbin, then a High Gain to connect to Kerbin.

An easier way to solve it would be to just set all the stations to have a range of 9E+11, just like KSP. Then it would work pretty much identical to the old version, with the exception of extreme polar orbits of Kerbin.

Edit: just to make it really clear what we are talking about, I think this is an issue of design intent. Paint skills to the resque!

What you are trying to do with Kerbalism right now:

https://imgur.com/26Eb1Hq

How Kerbalism was designed to work by ShotgunNinja:

https://imgur.com/wx8MuWj

 

In order to get the same result as the second picture, the easiest way to do it with the new tracking stations would be to just give them the same range as the one at the Kerbal base station, which is 900 million KM, enough to reach anywhere in the solar system.

 

And just for good measure, my updated Default config with the values edited:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuFEM7_Fm5Ykg5Qe2BcJaj_f0c2hgw

Edited by nosscire

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@N70 Hi! It seems I fixed broken science, all you need is delete '[*]' after each '@EXPERIMENT_DEFINITION[*]' in Kerbalism/System/Science.cfg file. If you interested, you can download edited file here. I've tested this fix for a bit — looks like everything is OK. Explanation, why it should work is in this comment.

Edited by player101

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11 hours ago, nosscire said:

@N70 So, is it currently intended that High Gain Antennas can be used as relays? That kind of takes away the whole point of even having Low Gain Antennas, except that you still need one in order to "active" Relay.

The way it was designed was Low Gain to hop around to get a clear connection to Kerbin, then a High Gain to connect to Kerbin.

An easier way to solve it would be to just set all the stations to have a range of 9E+11, just like KSP. Then it would work pretty much identical to the old version, with the exception of extreme polar orbits of Kerbin.

Edit: just to make it really clear what we are talking about, I think this is an issue of design intent. Paint skills to the resque!

What you are trying to do with Kerbalism right now:

https://imgur.com/26Eb1Hq

How Kerbalism was designed to work by ShotgunNinja:

https://imgur.com/wx8MuWj

 

In order to get the same result as the second picture, the easiest way to do it with the new tracking stations would be to just give them the same range as the one at the Kerbal base station, which is 900 million KM, enough to reach anywhere in the solar system.

 

And just for good measure, my updated Default config with the values edited:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuFEM7_Fm5Ykg5Qe2BcJaj_f0c2hgw

High-gain antennas should not be able to become relays.

11 hours ago, nosscire said:

@N70 So, is it currently intended that High Gain Antennas can be used as relays? That kind of takes away the whole point of even having Low Gain Antennas, except that you still need one in order to "active" Relay.

The way it was designed was Low Gain to hop around to get a clear connection to Kerbin, then a High Gain to connect to Kerbin.

An easier way to solve it would be to just set all the stations to have a range of 9E+11, just like KSP. Then it would work pretty much identical to the old version, with the exception of extreme polar orbits of Kerbin.

Edit: just to make it really clear what we are talking about, I think this is an issue of design intent. Paint skills to the resque!

What you are trying to do with Kerbalism right now:

https://imgur.com/26Eb1Hq

How Kerbalism was designed to work by ShotgunNinja:

https://imgur.com/wx8MuWj

 

In order to get the same result as the second picture, the easiest way to do it with the new tracking stations would be to just give them the same range as the one at the Kerbal base station, which is 900 million KM, enough to reach anywhere in the solar system.

 

And just for good measure, my updated Default config with the values edited:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuFEM7_Fm5Ykg5Qe2BcJaj_f0c2hgw

I never intended to go the same exact direction as Shotgun

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@N70, may I ask what the intent is then? As you said on a previous page that you are looking to create Low Gain antennas with higher range, are you still planning on making the same type of system as I described above?

In that case, you have effectively removed the point of differing between High Gain and Low Gain antennas, as Low Gain would cover both short and long distance communication.

If that's what you are aiming for, it could be done easier and still allow people to use the old system if they prefer, by using Config files.

One config (your model) would just need to set all antennas (no matter distance) to Low Gain. This would allow you to use any of the antennas as you wish.
For the second config, you keep the low/high gain difference, and change the Kerbin Stations to all have a very high distance, essentially making it into a proper DSN.

Just an idea which would both save you time and leave it as possible to use it as it was designed before, where there is a meaningful difference between Low Gain and High Gain antennas. For new coding, this would essentially mean that you only need to fix the bug that allow you to transmit relay over High Gain Antennas if you also have an Low Gain antenna with relay activated.

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26 minutes ago, nosscire said:

@N70, may I ask what the intent is then? As you said on a previous page that you are looking to create Low Gain antennas with higher range, are you still planning on making the same type of system as I described above?

In that case, you have effectively removed the point of differing between High Gain and Low Gain antennas, as Low Gain would cover both short and long distance communication.

If that's what you are aiming for, it could be done easier and still allow people to use the old system if they prefer, by using Config files.

One config (your model) would just need to set all antennas (no matter distance) to Low Gain. This would allow you to use any of the antennas as you wish.
For the second config, you keep the low/high gain difference, and change the Kerbin Stations to all have a very high distance, essentially making it into a proper DSN.

Just an idea which would both save you time and leave it as possible to use it as it was designed before, where there is a meaningful difference between Low Gain and High Gain antennas. For new coding, this would essentially mean that you only need to fix the bug that allow you to transmit relay over High Gain Antennas if you also have an Low Gain antenna with relay activated.

I came up with a compromise: @HaullyGames found a way to implement the commnet relay equation in Kerbalism. So you can just use a ton of low gains.

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That's the thing though, that takes away the whole point of using High Gains. In the current system you use, when would you ever use a High Gain antenna?
As they shouldn't be able to communicate with Low Gain antennas (but currently do as they add their range to the overall as well) there's no time where you would actually want to use them. They will never be able to provide more then roughly 50% uptime with Kerbin, as they are in practice only able to speak to the KSC. This means that using Low Gain over far distances is the only option, essentially having removed High Gain from the mod in everything but name.

If you want the system to work similar to how Remote Tech works, that's fine, it's your mod. The way your compromise have made it though achieves that in a way that makes most of the antennas (and the whole antenna progression) in the game completely redundant. Instead of using various better antennas, you are forced to just throw a whole bunch of Low Gain ones on the same satelite as they add up.

 

I really don't want to be too confrontational here, I'm super happy that you have picked up this mod and are doing great things with it, so please don't take this the wrong way. The way you are trying to do these signals however makes no sense. It doesn't really solve the problem you are trying to solve, and at the same time it completely breaks how the mod was originally intended to be played.

 

Like I said, if you want a more Remote Tech style game with a sat network that you need to take care of and upgrade around Kerbin as well, that could easily be done. Just keep the short distance base stations and make all antennas Low Gain in a config. This would solve your problem and allow for an antenna progression where further range coms would need better antennas, not just more antennas.
At the same time it would allow you to keep the Low-Gain/High-Gain difference for those that do prefer that type gameplay.

 

Edited by nosscire

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2 hours ago, nosscire said:

That's the thing though, that takes away the whole point of using High Gains. In the current system you use, when would you ever use a High Gain antenna?
As they shouldn't be able to communicate with Low Gain antennas (but currently do as they add their range to the overall as well) there's no time where you would actually want to use them. They will never be able to provide more then roughly 50% uptime with Kerbin, as they are in practice only able to speak to the KSC. This means that using Low Gain over far distances is the only option, essentially having removed High Gain from the mod in everything but name.

If you want the system to work similar to how Remote Tech works, that's fine, it's your mod. The way your compromise have made it though achieves that in a way that makes most of the antennas (and the whole antenna progression) in the game completely redundant. Instead of using various better antennas, you are forced to just throw a whole bunch of Low Gain ones on the same satelite as they add up.

 

I really don't want to be too confrontational here, I'm super happy that you have picked up this mod and are doing great things with it, so please don't take this the wrong way. The way you are trying to do these signals however makes no sense. It doesn't really solve the problem you are trying to solve, and at the same time it completely breaks how the mod was originally intended to be played.

 

Like I said, if you want a more Remote Tech style game with a sat network that you need to take care of and upgrade around Kerbin as well, that could easily be done. Just keep the short distance base stations and make all antennas Low Gain in a config. This would solve your problem and allow for an antenna progression where further range coms would need better antennas, not just more antennas.
At the same time it would allow you to keep the Low-Gain/High-Gain difference for those that do prefer that type gameplay.

 

Fun fact: for balance, the DIRECT (Antenna -> ground station) rate is same as before, but INDIRECT (Antenna -> Relay) uses commnet equation. I admit, this is a workaround for a larger problem.

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I have set UnlinkedControl = full but I have no control after signal lost - in the middle of a maneuver burn and the engine stays on... :/

Edited by Gordon Dry

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So how does radiation work these days? Is it the same as before? It would be cool if like in real life there is a limit on how much lifetime radiation exposure you can get before you get grounded. On the ISS only some parts are shielded. They hang out in those parts during high radiation and do other things like use water bags to block some of it.

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To clarify a few things for me:

Right now I have a sat-network around Kerbin (3 sats, each having both high-gain and low-gain antennae). I'm planning to send an unmanned probe to Jool. So, what it takes to have a controlled probe near Jool (provided I have an unobscured line of sight to Kerbin, of course)? Do I have to add both low-gain and a high-gain antennae to the probe?

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6 hours ago, cicatrix said:

To clarify a few things for me:

Right now I have a sat-network around Kerbin (3 sats, each having both high-gain and low-gain antennae). I'm planning to send an unmanned probe to Jool. So, what it takes to have a controlled probe near Jool (provided I have an unobscured line of sight to Kerbin, of course)? Do I have to add both low-gain and a high-gain antennae to the probe?

At this time, yes. Having both (as well as having both on your sats around Kerbin) will allow you to connect to one of the sats around Kerbin to relay the signal. I'm pretty sure this is not intended however, and may change later, meaning that your Jool Sat may not work - I think the idea N70 is going for is that you should stack Low Gain antennas to reach all the way to Kerbin.

Another option is to change the Default config as I did above: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuFEM7_Fm5Ykg5Qe2BcJaj_f0c2hgw

This will allow you to connect directly to Kerbin using a High Gain antenna, similar to how it worked in old Kerbalism.

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3 hours ago, nosscire said:

At this time, yes. Having both (as well as having both on your sats around Kerbin) will allow you to connect to one of the sats around Kerbin to relay the signal. I'm pretty sure this is not intended however, and may change later, meaning that your Jool Sat may not work - I think the idea N70 is going for is that you should stack Low Gain antennas to reach all the way to Kerbin.

Another option is to change the Default config as I did above: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuFEM7_Fm5Ykg5Qe2BcJaj_f0c2hgw

This will allow you to connect directly to Kerbin using a High Gain antenna, similar to how it worked in old Kerbalism.

You posted that file before, but it is the Classic.cfg and does not say anything about Signal. Are you sure that is the correct file?

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The solution to Kerbalism Signal Problems

High Gain antenna:
    ⁃    Long range
    ⁃    Ping capable (meaning it Auto-connects to nearest high gain only if nearest high gain is further than the distance from Kerbin to the mun to avoid data loss)
    ⁃    Data loss scales with distance from ground stations
    ⁃    Less data loss when signal is bounced off other high gain vs a direct connection 
    ⁃    Only antenna that display blue science dots
    ⁃    Only antenna capable of sending data directly to ground stations 

Low gain antenna:
    ⁃    Short range
    ⁃    Relay capable
    ⁃    No data loss when bouncing around only low gain
    ⁃    Requires connection to high gain to transmit data to ground stations

Ground stations:
Should have limited range like current kerbalism groundstations.

Should remain in the same place the KSC and Woomerang (forgot the name) site is, shouldn't appear magically or be added in with icons that makes it hard for the kidder etc. Should work with GPP, RSS and SSRSS ideally.

Things Kerbalism could use:
:wink:

GPS
Injuries 
Illnesses 
Quarantine (clicking on an airlock and clicking quarantine so that life support, pressure etc is not shared with it, only electricity)
Medical bay to cure illnesses and fix injuries
Medical bay should consume ammonia, hydrogen, supplies, and especially xenon to fix injuries.

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4 hours ago, The-Doctor said:

Things Kerbalism could use:
:wink:

GPS
Injuries 
Illnesses 
Quarantine (clicking on an airlock and clicking quarantine so that life support, pressure etc is not shared with it, only electricity)
Medical bay to cure illnesses and fix injuries
Medical bay should consume ammonia, hydrogen, supplies, and especially xenon to fix injuries.

+ fancier supply container models.

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note that while I am willing to fix bugs for the backports, the 1.4 version takes priority

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I have a little reminder - not an issue - very specific and generally spoken:

  • Some times I download the newest rls of a mod via Spacedock, sometimes via Github or even Jenkins - you know ...
  • Some times all files have the actual timestamp of when downloaded the pack (Github especially), sometimes the correct timestamp of last change, some times they all have the same timestamp of latest packing by the dev.
  • Some times the files (*.cfg) have Windows-1252, sometimes they have UTF-8.

The last point is the most "problematic", it makes it very difficult to compare files, they show different (bitwise), but have same contents.

And the Jenkins download that should be the KSP 1.4.2 variant also got a "Kerbalism-BP.version" file in it what is very confusing. :sticktongue:

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Hey, it looks like the backport for 1.3.1 somehow came up as the most recent version on ckan and overwrote the 1.4 version for my 1.4 game since I have 1.3 set to compatible for some other mods.  Not sure if this is something to tell you guys or ckan but figured I'd let you both know. Thanks for the fantastic mod by the way :) Was playing my first serious campaign about a month ago and was reading a lot into apollo etc and was feeling the lack of malfunctions and radiation belts. Looked on the forums and ta-da, someone already did both, and more! This mod really is fantastic, and it seems to be compatible with a surprising amount of other mods considering I had heard it was very picky.

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I'm also more than confused - in the OP are two links, for 1.4.x and for 1.3.x backport, both pointing to same Spacedock URL.

Actually it's a little chaotic.

The Gitlab is more unorganized than I can resist, IMHO Github is more friendly.

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Is there any way to prevent Kerbalism from stopping timewarp whenever a vessel (any vessel, not just the focused one) loses signal? When I launch something into an inclined LKO I can't timewarp at all, it gets halted every time the offending vessel completes half an orbit.

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