JacobJHC

The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge Continuation for 1.7

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3 hours ago, EvermoreAlpaca said:

,inspired by this challenge, but don't want to be limited in creativity by arbitrary rules that don't add to the difficulty?


0.o  A pod or cabin is much heavier than the command seat - that certainly adds to the difficulty.  The same thing for the requirement to only separate within Jool's SOI, which means you have the potential for a lot of vehicles arriving at their destinations at the same time.  Not to mention, given the vast number of creative designs that have featured in the Challenge over the years...  The charge that the rules stifle creativity is laughable (at best).

The rules close the easy ways out and make a challenge into a Challenge.  They also provide a level playing field for all entrants.

Changing the rules to suit someone who doesn't want to participate in the Challenge makes no sense to me.

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5 hours ago, EvermoreAlpaca said:

Just to make a note here, I would personally be much more interested in doing this challenge again in this game version if there weren't some unnecessary and arbitrary rules attached.  Case in point, not being able to separate before Jool S.O.I.  I see no purpose in this; all it does is limit possible designs and creativity.

Also personally, If I can't send Bill around space in a command chair, I won't be doing the challenge.  

Neither of these rules add significant difficulty to the challenge, but they do prevent me from flying the way I like =)

Perhaps add another category if you are really invested in this particular ruleset?

I agree with you on the chair rule, and it has been updated. The rule for separating before arriving at Jool was made to prevent people from simply launching 1 separate mission for each moon at one time with a giant launch stage, however I will amend this rule as well to see what types of submissions it brings.

 

Also, I would just like to say that your unrefueled grand tour inspired me to do my own, as I had always thought it was impossible. Your videos have also shown things I didn't even think were possible, like the Jool atmosphere return. I was heavily impressed by your Eeloo SSTOs, and your SSTO endurance run series, and am looking forward to part 5. If you do decide to send Bill on an expedition to the Joolian moons, I wish you luck.

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Just now, JacobJHC said:

I agree with you on the chair rule, and it has been updated. The rule for separating before arriving at Jool was made to prevent people from simply launching 1 separate mission for each moon at one time with a giant launch stage, however I will amend this rule as well to see what types of submissions it brings.

 

Also, I would just like to say that your unrefueled grand tour inspired me to do my own, as I had always thought it was impossible. Your videos have also shown things I didn't even think were possible, like the Jool atmosphere return. I was heavily impressed by your Eeloo SSTOs, and your SSTO endurance run series, and am looking forward to part 5. If you do decide to send Bill on an expedition to the Joolian moons, I wish you luck.

I am planning on another Jool 5 at some point, although not necessarily soon.  Please send me your unrefueled grand tour vid/album/post, would love to check it out.

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Hey guys, remember me?

My last Jool-5 attempt didn't go so well, so I expanded!

I'm currently in the midst of a Grand tour Run, currently orbiting Vall with no way to land.

I've already visited Moho,Eve,Gilly,Minmus,Mun,Duna,Ike,Dres,Laythe. I've also had to send a refuelling mission because I ran out of fuel near Moho. Is this still valid? plz I've already wasted 6 months of my life I checked the Grand Tour thread and saw nothing about refuelling missions, so i decided to go for the 1 refuelling mission it stipulates here.

Another question - I'm also collecting all the science from wherever i land, so do I have to show only science taken from the Jool system or can I just show everything?

 

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7 hours ago, EvermoreAlpaca said:

I am planning on another Jool 5 at some point, although not necessarily soon.  Please send me your unrefueled grand tour vid/album/post, would love to check it out.

Glad to see you on the forum ! Just like Jacob, I can also say your missions were a great inspiration for my KSP career :D I've watched many times The Odyssey of Bill, and your guide about SSTO's which helped me a lot when I started to build this kind of ships  :).

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On 10/6/2018 at 7:03 PM, EvermoreAlpaca said:

Just to make a note here, I would personally be much more interested in doing this challenge again in this game version if there weren't some unnecessary and arbitrary rules attached.  Case in point, not being able to separate before Jool S.O.I.  I see no purpose in this; all it does is limit possible designs and creativity.

Also personally, If I can't send Bill around space in a command chair, I won't be doing the challenge.  

Neither of these rules add significant difficulty to the challenge, but they do prevent me from flying the way I like =)

Perhaps add another category if you are really invested in this particular ruleset?

Hi, this is Ziv, originally I created the JOOL-5 back in 2013. 

1. Flying separate ships to Jool:  the basic challenge idea was to fly one mission to the Jool system and explore all the moons in one go, and go home safely.
This means the crew would travel together until Jool SOI. But you can undock all the landers at once when arriving, of course. You don't have to get into orbit for it. Jool's SOI is so huge that you can easily catch all the moons with the landers.
I'm just not sure if it is better than using Jool's gravity to slow down everything at once and then go for the moons (Oberth-effect). But it's up to you!
What I also wanted to avoid is unlimited support and fuel missions. I wanted to make Jool-5 a very hard and "clean" mission where you can succeed or fail. But soon I included the possibility for one refueling mission, thinking about those who spent a lot of time on their mission and they just lack a little fuel for success... :)
Also, please note that in 2013 the orange tanks and the mainsail were the largest ones, and the rockets exploded above 2-300 parts. So it was way more harder back then. 

2. The Kerbin-Jool interplanetary travel have to be in a pod/capsule: this is for making it more life-like. Sitting in a chair in a space suit for months is not good for the health of the Kerbals. :D And also, this adds to the difficulty. But once in Jool's SOI, you can use seats for landers to the moons. 

...and you can do the mission in any way you like. When I managed the challenge I had a "Mixed solutions (they just wanted to go on their way)" category for folks like you. :) 

Edited by Ziv

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Just now, Ziv said:

Hi, this is Ziv, originally I created the JOOL-5 back in 2013. 

1. Flying separate ships to Jool:  the basic challenge idea was to fly one mission to the Jool system and explore all the moons in one go, and go home safely.
This means the crew would travel together until Jool SOI. But you can undock all the landers at once when arriving, of course. You don't have to get into orbit for it. Jool's SOI is so huge that you can easily catch all the moons with the landers.
I'm just not sure if it is better than using Jool's gravity to slow down everything at once and then go for the moons (Oberth-effect). But it's up to you!
What I also wanted to avoid is unlimited support and fuel missions. I wanted to make Jool-5 a very hard and "clean" mission where you can succeed or fail. But soon I included the possibility for one refueling mission, thinking about those who spent a lot of time on their mission and they just lack a little fuel for success... :)
Also, please note that in 2013 the orange tanks and the mainsail were the largest ones, and the rockets exploded above 2-300 parts. So it was way more harder back then. 

2. The Kerbin-Jool interplanetary travel have to be in a pod/capsule: this is for making it more life-like. Sitting in a chair in a space suit for months is not good for the health of the Kerbals. :D And also, this adds to the difficulty. But once in Jool's SOI, you can use seats for landers to the moons. 

...and you can do the mission in any way you like. When I managed the challenge I had a "Mixed solutions (they just wanted to go on their way)" category for folks like you. :) 

Sending Bill around space on a chair has become somewhat of a calling card for me =)  Even when I have massive crafts with thousands of passengers I ensure that my fearless pilot is in a command chair.  There are other ways that I prefer to add difficulty.

By the way, reading my post above, I apologize for the potential appearance of unintended snark.  No disrespect intended, I appreciate your effort in stimulating the community.

Edited by EvermoreAlpaca

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@EvermoreAlpaca If I would manage the challenge then it would be okay for me if you add more custom difficulty than what you ignore. It's all about fun, anyway! :) 

What I would be strict about is to avoid accepting missions which was likely to be cheated, only for the badge... actually I rejected 2 or 3 missions where the dV/TWR were obviously not realistic. It's okay if we cheat on our own sometimes but don't cheat the community! 

I see @JacobJHC deleted the capsule rule for the interplanetary travel. I'm not a fan of it but he's in charge for the challenge now... :) 

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On 10/8/2018 at 6:49 AM, Ziv said:

...and you can do the mission in any way you like. When I managed the challenge I had a "Mixed solutions (they just wanted to go on their way)" category for folks like you. :) 

2 hours ago, Ziv said:

If I would manage the challenge then it would be okay for me if you add more custom difficulty than what you ignore. It's all about fun, anyway! :) 

What I would be strict about is to avoid accepting missions which was likely to be cheated, only for the badge... actually I rejected 2 or 3 missions where the dV/TWR were obviously not realistic. It's okay if we cheat on our own sometimes but don't cheat the community!

Ok, I've decided to take the 'Mixed solutions (they just wanted to go their way)' category approach, as this will please everyone. @EvermoreAlpaca you are free to do your mission how you please. @Ziv the rules have been restored.

Go team:)

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On 10/8/2018 at 6:49 AM, Ziv said:

Hi, this is Ziv, originally I created the JOOL-5 back in 2013. 

1. Flying separate ships to Jool:  the basic challenge idea was to fly one mission to the Jool system and explore all the moons in one go, and go home safely.
This means the crew would travel together until Jool SOI. But you can undock all the landers at once when arriving, of course. You don't have to get into orbit for it. Jool's SOI is so huge that you can easily catch all the moons with the landers.
I'm just not sure if it is better than using Jool's gravity to slow down everything at once and then go for the moons (Oberth-effect). But it's up to you!
What I also wanted to avoid is unlimited support and fuel missions. I wanted to make Jool-5 a very hard and "clean" mission where you can succeed or fail. But soon I included the possibility for one refueling mission, thinking about those who spent a lot of time on their mission and they just lack a little fuel for success... :)
Also, please note that in 2013 the orange tanks and the mainsail were the largest ones, and the rockets exploded above 2-300 parts. So it was way more harder back then. 

2. The Kerbin-Jool interplanetary travel have to be in a pod/capsule: this is for making it more life-like. Sitting in a chair in a space suit for months is not good for the health of the Kerbals. :D And also, this adds to the difficulty. But once in Jool's SOI, you can use seats for landers to the moons. 

...and you can do the mission in any way you like. When I managed the challenge I had a "Mixed solutions (they just wanted to go on their way)" category for folks like you. :) 

I was considering replying and you hit the nail on the head, exactly what I was thinking.

I would add, I got rid of the "mixed solutions" category only after there were no entries in that category for a whole game version.  But there's certainly the case for it returning, if there is demand!

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Okay, so, does the DSEV ban apply specifically to the engines, or does it include other parts, such as the fuel tanks, fusion reactors, or crew cabins?

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Hey y'all, I decided it was finally time to make an all stock Making History Jool 5 after some time away.

It's running in 1.4.5 with the DLC, and the only mods are Kerbal Engineer for dV and TWR tracking, hanger extender to build a tall rocket more easily, and better burn time.

I can build cool ships, but I lack the patience and/or expertise to do a bunch of fancy flybys so this is brute force there and back via a huge single launch vehicle, and efficient new Wolfhound powered 3rd stage.

It should meet the requirements of both level II and III by sending 5 kerbals and landing 2 on each moon, with a unique one planting the primary flag at each.

I made no great effort to maximize efficiency or minimize mass, but I added the self imposed challenge to do it with no solid boosters (including separatrons), no jets, no nuclear engines, no ion engines, no RTGs, no Kerbin orbit assembly, no mining or refueling missions, and no antennas/all directly piloted.

My trial run handled Tylo better than expected, and Laythe caused problems as usual, but I think those have been addressed and it's all downhill from there. 

Hopefully I'll get the time to finish the 2nd attempt tomorrow or Thursday and post an album.

:) Fly Safe.

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2 hours ago, RocketSquid said:

Okay, so, does the DSEV ban apply specifically to the engines, or does it include other parts, such as the fuel tanks, fusion reactors, or crew cabins?

Just the engines. ISPs of 60,000 would make it too easy.

Just now, PhoenixRise86 said:

Hey y'all, I decided it was finally time to make an all stock Making History Jool 5 after some time away.

It's running in 1.4.5 with the DLC, and the only mods are Kerbal Engineer for dV and TWR tracking, hanger extender to build a tall rocket more easily, and better burn time.

I can build cool ships, but I lack the patience and/or expertise to do a bunch of fancy flybys so this is brute force there and back via a huge single launch vehicle, and efficient new Wolfhound powered 3rd stage.

It should meet the requirements of both level II and III by sending 5 kerbals and landing 2 on each moon, with a unique one planting the primary flag at each.

I made no great effort to maximize efficiency or minimize mass, but I added the self imposed challenge to do it with no solid boosters (including separatrons), no jets, no nuclear engines, no ion engines, no RTGs, no Kerbin orbit assembly, no mining or refueling missions, and no antennas/all directly piloted.

My trial run handled Tylo better than expected, and Laythe caused problems as usual, but I think those have been addressed and it's all downhill from there. 

Hopefully I'll get the time to finish the 2nd attempt tomorrow or Thursday and post an album.

:) Fly Safe.

Fly sage, I am excited to see a brute force approach, especially if the DLC is involved.

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:36 PM, JacobJHC said:

Fly sage, I am excited to see a brute force approach, especially if the DLC is involved.

I used some of the new parts - the core stage is the SaturnV-esque 5m tanks and adapter, a new upper stage engine, and some of the small fuel tanks on a lander. 

*edit*

I'm happy to report that Tylo and Laythe have been conquered (with only a moderate amount of quicksaving), I should be able to knock out the rest tomorrow.

Edited by PhoenixRise86

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FINALLY

My Grand Tour run is finally up!

Mission profile : Single large SSTA, with dedicated Eve lander.

Refuelling missions : 1

Crew: Valentina Kerman (Pilot) , Elifel Kerman (Scientist), Crisald Kerman (Engineer), Sanbree Kerman (Pilot) and Liswell Kerman (Scientist).

Mods: MechJeb, BetterTimeWarp, TAC Fuel Balancer, Precise Node, Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Alarm Clock

Hyperedit was installed, but not used.

Some mods were bugged early in the mission.

Other info : ISRU was used, Entry for Jeb's level

Girls' Night Out - A Grand tour run.

Edited by Xurkitree

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5 hours ago, Xurkitree said:

FINALLY

My Grand Tour run is finally up!

Mission profile : Single large SSTA, with dedicated Eve lander.

Refuelling missions : 1

Crew: Valentina Kerman (Pilot) , Elifel Kerman (Scientist), Crisald Kerman (Engineer), Sanbree Kerman (Pilot) and Liswell Kerman (Scientist).

Mods: MechJeb, BetterTimeWarp, TAC Fuel Balancer, Precise Node, Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Alarm Clock

Hyperedit was installed, but not used.

Some mods were bugged early in the mission.

Other info : ISRU was used, Entry for Jeb's level

Girls' Night Out - A Grand tour run.

Congratulation @Xurkitree on completing the first Jeb's Level entry for the new thread! Missions like yours are my favorite, as you learned a lot during the mission and clearly had fun doing it. I especially liked the moment when you realized you needed fuel from Pol so you left Val. As for your imgur album, it is more organized than some others I've checked, so thanks for that  as well. Overall this was an amazing mission, good job!

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I didn't quit or disappear, but I had to give up on my previous almost successful flight due to a flawed command pod design that killed half the crew on reentry... With only 200dV, I couldn't slow them enough to survive, so I tried using up to 7 different Eve and Kerbin fly-by's to slow down enough, but felt making them wait 40+ years for enough orbital adjustments to safely renter was unacceptable.

New command module design is narrower and can separate into 2 reentry pods if necessary, instead of the failure-probe KerbCan.

Updates later...

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So here's my Level 3 (and also Level 2) submission!

A single launch from Kerbin, using no solid, ion, nuclear, or jet engines, all pure rocketry. No mining, refueling, or antennas, and mostly brute force travel (I got lucky with some nice Laythe, Tylo, and Vall assists though).

The launch vehicle was powered by 13 Vectors on the 1st stage and 7 on each of 2 boosters, 5 Vectors on the 2nd stage, and a new Wolfhound 3rd stage. Inside the main fairing you'll find a wonky Laythe rocketplane and a Tylo "Tankenstein" of matching mass, and a much smaller Vall descent stage. The Tylo ascent stage and Laythe return pod get reused as the main lander and tug, respectively, for the later parts of the mission.

On arrival from Kerbin, the crew used a Laythe capture flyby to park in Jool orbit, and get a low energy Tylo encounter and park in an elliptical orbit. From here the two large landers handle Tylo and Laythe, then the Carrier/Command Module brings the Tylo ascent stage to meet the Laythe return pod at Vall. Then the return stages are combined for the journey to Bop, expending the smaller one along the way. After returning to Vall, the smaller lander is attached for the icy blue moon mission. The last trip to Pol requires only the Tylo ascent stage. Upon completion, the return journey to Kerbin gets a nice boost from a Tylo-->Vall flyby and gets home in 1 3/4 orbits with enough fuel to perform a capture burn. The crew of 5 filled two separate command pods that reentered together, then separated after slowing to subsonic speeds, and splashed down separately. 

This was done in version 1.4.5 with the Making History DLC, using only BetterBurnTime, Kerbal Engineer, and Hanger Extender (plus a non-functional EVE)

Crew = 5 Kerbals - Isaney, Barlock, Tezor, Claubery, and Kergan, 1 as the primary flag bearer for each moon, 2 total landing on each moon.

Launches = 1

ISRU/Refueling = Nope

Cost = 911,168.0

Mass = 1709.473 t

Album = 250+ photos, many of maneuver nodes and engineer dV.

I'm trying to figure out how to rearrange the album without much luck so far, I'll post an alternate album and/or edit and caption it tomorrow or soon.

https://imgur.com/a/zoDJ4vK
Imgur hates me and completely rearranged the screenshot order. I made a Imgbox gallery that stayed in order if that's ok:
https://imgbox.com/g/yExCxxTmtF
Some mission highlights:
7Zr5S2tN_o.pngdkoFb84o_o.pngQd53L3Jj_o.pngzuBhsrYg_o.pngi1eE7spz_o.png
Edited by PhoenixRise86

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1 hour ago, PhoenixRise86 said:

So here's my Level 3 (and also Level 2) submission!

I'm starting to think that a certain...  lack of sanity and stability is a precursor to attempting the Jool-5.

Congrats! 

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6 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

I'm starting to think that a certain...  lack of sanity and stability is a precursor to attempting the Jool-5.

Congrats! 

Thanks! I'm as stable as most of my rocketplanes :confused:!

Perhaps more a lack of other at-home hobbies...

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On 10/30/2018 at 9:57 PM, PhoenixRise86 said:

So here's my Level 3 (and also Level 2) submission!

A single launch from Kerbin, using no solid, ion, nuclear, or jet engines, all pure rocketry. No mining, refueling, or antennas, and mostly brute force travel (I got lucky with some nice Laythe, Tylo, and Vall assists though).

The launch vehicle was powered by 13 Vectors on the 1st stage and 7 on each of 2 boosters, 5 Vectors on the 2nd stage, and a new Wolfhound 3rd stage. Inside the main fairing you'll find a wonky Laythe rocketplane and a Tylo "Tankenstein" of matching mass, and a much smaller Vall descent stage. The Tylo ascent stage and Laythe return pod get reused as the main lander and tug, respectively, for the later parts of the mission.

On arrival from Kerbin, the crew used a Laythe capture flyby to park in Jool orbit, and get a low energy Tylo encounter and park in an elliptical orbit. From here the two large landers handle Tylo and Laythe, then the Carrier/Command Module brings the Tylo ascent stage to meet the Laythe return pod at Vall. Then the return stages are combined for the journey to Bop, expending the smaller one along the way. After returning to Vall, the smaller lander is attached for the icy blue moon mission. The last trip to Pol requires only the Tylo ascent stage. Upon completion, the return journey to Kerbin gets a nice boost from a Tylo-->Vall flyby and gets home in 1 3/4 orbits with enough fuel to perform a capture burn. The crew of 5 filled two separate command pods that reentered together, then separated after slowing to subsonic speeds, and splashed down separately. 

This was done in version 1.4.5 with the Making History DLC, using only BetterBurnTime, Kerbal Engineer, and Hanger Extender (plus a non-functional EVE)

Crew = 5 Kerbals - Isaney, Barlock, Tezor, Claubery, and Kergan, 1 as the primary flag bearer for each moon, 2 total landing on each moon.

Launches = 1

ISRU/Refueling = Nope

Cost = 911,168.0

Mass = 1709.473 t

Album = 250+ photos, many of maneuver nodes and engineer dV.

I'm trying to figure out how to rearrange the album without much luck so far, I'll post an alternate album and/or edit and caption it tomorrow or soon.

https://imgur.com/a/zoDJ4vK
Imgur hates me and completely rearranged the screenshot order. I made a Imgbox gallery that stayed in order if that's ok:
https://imgbox.com/g/yExCxxTmtF
Some mission highlights:
7Zr5S2tN_o.pngdkoFb84o_o.pngQd53L3Jj_o.pngzuBhsrYg_o.pngi1eE7spz_o.png

Looks cool! I'll review this later today when I get time. (Neat Vall lander)

Edit: Congratulations @PhoenixRise86 on completing the Jool 5 challenge on Levels 2 and 3! For simplicity I only put you on the scoreboard for level 3. The landers featured in this mission are absolutely amazing, I also liked the rocket cluster on your launch stage. Overall very cool. Good job!

Edited by JacobJHC

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On 11/1/2018 at 9:21 AM, JacobJHC said:

 The landers featured in this mission are absolutely amazing, I also liked the rocket cluster on your launch stage. Overall very cool. Good job!

Thanks, I had fun with it and trying some of the new parts. Laythe has traditionally kicked my butt so I planned and troubleshot that plane a dozen times on Kerbin til they could make orbit there, then built the flattened asparagus thing for Tylo with matching mass. The Vall lander and Laythe return capsule reuse as a tug were mostly afterthoughts but helped a lot. I think using Vall orbit as the main staging and rendezvous area (after Tylo) is an often overlooked strategy that saved a lot of dV and allowed some easy gravity assists.

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26 minutes ago, PhoenixRise86 said:

I think using Vall orbit as the main staging and rendezvous area (after Tylo) is an often overlooked strategy that saved a lot of dV and allowed some easy gravity assists.


That's how I did mine.  The mothership hung out between Tylo and Vall, and the landers and tug fanned out from there.

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just got 1.5, i'll have to land on every bodies before this, my intention never changed, if 1.5 allow me to build larger ones without crashing the game

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On 11/2/2018 at 11:22 PM, DerekL1963 said:


That's how I did mine.  The mothership hung out between Tylo and Vall, and the landers and tug fanned out from there.

I dropped off 3 landers in Tylo orbit, one in Laythe orbit, and one out in high Jool orbit (I think that was the Pol lander). I picked up the Tylo lander from, er, Tylo, and everyone else got picked up in Laythe orbit. Mine was probably not the best method though - Laythe is somewhat more difficult to get to. Bop is the worst though. A highly inclined orbit and a tiny SOI makes for a ludicrous number of maneuvers.

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