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The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge Continued


JacobJHC
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On 1/27/2021 at 1:46 PM, camacju said:

I've proved that the kerbal can exit and reboard pretty much that same lander design in my previous submission. For Laythe all you need to do is get the camera into the service bay. For the other moons and planets the kerbal can jump high enough to board. https://imgur.com/a/Hb0K424

 

12 launches I believe. One launch put up a tank and the service module, one for the Tylo descent stage, and the rest launched a single tank. 11 tanks were launched total and I dumped one into the SSTO's fuel tanks on the last launch to save mass.

Sounds good to me, adding you to the leaderboards now. Congratulations on completing the Jool 5 challenge on level 1!

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  • 3 weeks later...

@JacobJHC Okay, here we go! I took about 1k funds off for the final design, and there's a bunch of room to improve upon it. I had 2 fuel tanks more than necessary at the end, which could have made the transfer stage smaller, which could have made the launcher smaller, etc. Also the Laythe lander had way more delta-v than I needed. Finally I had >900m/s of EVA fuel which I didn't actually need. (Also I wasn't as aggressive as I could have been with unbolting fuel tanks, but I didn't bother because my margins were fine).

Low cost Jool 5 - 24070 funds

VAB, launch, Mun assists

Spoiler

nMRRTSU.png

24070 funds in VAB. Two solid rocket stages to get into suborbital trajectory, Terrier powered transfer stage that brings stuff into low Tylo orbit, Spark powered fuel tanker, and two Twitch powered two stage landers - one for Laythe and one for all the other moons.

uhdfhaO.png

Liftoff. Notice that I'm yawed hard to the right here, because I want to flatten the trajectory early. I could have used a pre-tilted booster but that's a bit annoying to set up.

zpaNe1h.png

The four Thumpers are expended and the Pollux booster continues pushing to the edge of the atmosphere. The Pollux is a good balance between size, cost, and impulse of the Kickback and Thoroughbred boosters, while the Thumper is just there for an extra boost at the beginning.

M0tG2Bw.png

Booster burns out and I coast to the upper layers of the atmosphere before deploying the fairing. I lose more delta-v to gravity but I lose less to drag, and since the craft is not drag optimized apart from the Laythe lander, drag is more important.

fQQASg1.png

Very low drag means I can circularize within the atmosphere to at least get some benefit from the Oberth effect.

g4BjiZo.png

In orbit. Unlike the other low cost submission I do use electrical systems, since controlling landers with just gimbal is pretty annoying. I did forgo electricity for the Laythe lander but the craft is aerodynamically stable forward during ascent so it's much less annoying.

BaKOs4c.png

Two Mun assists give me a high orbit above Kerbin, which lets me escape Kerbin at a chosen time with much less delta-v than a direct escape burn.

6l1LGnJ.png

Executing Mun transfer

Uqynmey.png

Mun assist 1

6p1kahQ.png

Mun assist 2

jb6bVtG.png

Mun assist 3 rotates the orbit's line of apsides so I can eject in the right direction on the next assist.

F6L2RuJ.png

The next assist will put me into a 5:6 resonance with Kerbin - it doesn't have enough energy to do a 4:5. This still takes less time to get to Eve than my usual gravity assist route.

oDZuVYz.png

Final Mun assist

More space ping pong until Laythe

Spoiler

XsDmP3Q.png

I can't get enough energy to go to Eve directly from Mun assists without spending too much fuel initially. This is why I took care to eject into an orbital resonance - so I can swing by Kerbin and the Mun another time, getting even more energy from its orbit. This assist gives me a plane change as well as dropping my orbit below Eve's orbit. Normally I do this twice but I didn't need to do that this time, which saves me four years (which doesn't usually matter but oh well)

dJCA5qR.png

View of plane change

J0jFJxT.png

Eve encounter. Note that the single Kerbin-Mun flyby didn't affect my velocity relative to Eve enough for a K-E-K-K-J route, so I won't be able to do that.

PVmBTYj.png

The Eve encounter puts me directly onto a Kerbin flyby. If I passed behind Kerbin, gaining velocity, I'd saturate the gravity assists before getting to Jool. Instead, I pass in front of Kerbin, increasing my Eve relative velocity and letting me do a second Eve assist, after which follow a pretty standard series of gravity assists. Here, you can see the second Kerbin assist and second Eve assist plotted. I didn't take screenshots of the rest because it's not that hard to do.

CPCvKBE.png

I drop the Laythe lander onto an aerobrake trajectory and use Laythe and Vall assists to drop the rest of the craft in Tylo orbit.

ENT0IcM.png
Detach

Laythe and Tylo landings

Spoiler

NAi0x6x.png

Aerocapture straight to landing

efxZN6t.png

Parachutes deployed. Engines are activated too, to soften splashdown. The lander floats, but just barely.

YSFJCOs.png

Splashdown

15x9iDC.png

Laythe ascent

DopKuNi.png

This upper stage is a good design for very cheap landers. It consists of a chair, a decoupler, a spider engine, and a baguette tank. The decoupler is necessary because you have to detach it from something - it's not very good as a standalone mission - and you need a node attached part as the root for the lander.

gGZUdme.png

In fact, it's good enough that I have a lot of delta-v remaining after I reach orbit.

AKxMfVk.png

Tylo transfer

b8F0yv6.png

Captured in Tylo orbit

SkQs9yK.png

The lander had 200m/s remaining in low Tylo orbit but that's not enough to do anything interesting, and there's no docking port, so I have the kerbal bail out and let the fuel tanker pick him up.

sQnsQdt.png

Lowering orbit

tKh3pku.png

Setting up an intercept

Qs5b8YI.png

A joyful reunion

4rnNGYf.png

Tylo descent

NKWEYNp.png

Landed on Tylo

eM5LRj2.png

Tylo ascent. Note: the delta-v readings are a bit wonky because inventory mass isn't calculated correctly

ngsf1Nw.png

Back in orbit

rY244Fb.png

Vall transfer using the last of the transfer stage's fuel

Vall, Bop, Pol landings

Spoiler

orq2gXf.png

Finishing Vall transfer

l9rq63c.png

Capture burn at Vall is higher than optimal, so a periapsis burn at Vall sets up a second Vall encounter with much lower of a capture burn.

vobTCEG.png

At this point I detach some empty fuel tanks to reduce mass

oyLXXaJ.png

Capture burn is 4 m/s instead of 200 ish from before. Saved about 150 m/s this way

KJuhB66.png

Vall descent

pIuyCd2.png

Landed on Vall

DMmHCoP.png

Vall ascent

jipkb1f.png

Rendezvous with tanker

DG79aEN.png

Detaching more tanks

avrlkBd.png

Pol transfer

mgGkMwO.png

Leaving as little fuel in the lander as possible for the landing

EboEVyl.png

Still way over budget

n1Ixswv.png

Intercept

rqHfQw1.png

Bop transfer, more tanks have been shed

RsYMW2h.png

The last three landings are the same - the tanker is left in elliptical orbit and the lander does the rest. This saves the fuel necessary to bring the tanker down and back up, and makes transfers between the moons smaller, at the cost of waiting a long time for the right transfer window.

7oRGS8T.png

Bop descent

oYVSDqb.png

Final landing

fwoamCb.png

Rendezvous

fApV6qF.png

Tanker is empty

7Awm4Ru.png

Stealing a solar panel

ybBDRPG.png

Finding a good Bop to Tylo transfer window is hard. So I don't bother. Instead, I burn prograde and then burn retrograde at Jool apoapsis, where I get a plane change off Tylo.

Return to Kerbin

Spoiler

t20ylda.png

Tylo assist to a Kerbin encounter

iTuNthz.png

Two Kerbin encounters to reduce relative speed

RJ6tub4.png

I burn the rest of the fuel here to reduce heating. Not necessary but I took a pretty lazy approach back to Kerbin since I had a bunch of fuel left over

tAgMou7.png

Slowed down, aiming for the water

Bwib2b5.png

Bailed out here

75hJBFh.png

Splashdown

lsOYYLx.png

Landed back at Kerbin

 

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I'm gonna go in with a bang with an ssta concept with a detachable tylo lander with a boxwing. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ks7prhd8uEsSjjsMA Working on tylo lander and tail heaviness, i'm lasy and just pump fuel around

Matt lownes how to video helped

*totally not a ripoff of his eeloo ssto(jk its not a ripoff)

Edited by Single stage to ocean
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Deep in my lair, Werhner Kerman hammers the fairing into shape. Suddenly, Jeb walks in, gone insane from too much kokaine and snaks, pins him down, and ties him to the wall. Jeb picks the key, as a horrified Werner von Kerman calls for help. It is too late as Jeb performs the takeoff run, and promptly crashed. "Some work to be done! " Vernher proclaimed. Jeb was soon relegated to snack gaurding duty around the island airfeild in his kessna, dejected. Still some work with SAS drift so, I have to download mouseaimflight. but it flies.

edit: this is embarassing i forgot the link and to host it on google photos.

Edited by Single stage to ocean
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On 2/21/2021 at 8:32 PM, camacju said:

@JacobJHC Okay, here we go! I took about 1k funds off for the final design, and there's a bunch of room to improve upon it. I had 2 fuel tanks more than necessary at the end, which could have made the transfer stage smaller, which could have made the launcher smaller, etc. Also the Laythe lander had way more delta-v than I needed. Finally I had >900m/s of EVA fuel which I didn't actually need. (Also I wasn't as aggressive as I could have been with unbolting fuel tanks, but I didn't bother because my margins were fine).

Low cost Jool 5 - 24070 funds

VAB, launch, Mun assists

  Reveal hidden contents

nMRRTSU.png

24070 funds in VAB. Two solid rocket stages to get into suborbital trajectory, Terrier powered transfer stage that brings stuff into low Tylo orbit, Spark powered fuel tanker, and two Twitch powered two stage landers - one for Laythe and one for all the other moons.

uhdfhaO.png

Liftoff. Notice that I'm yawed hard to the right here, because I want to flatten the trajectory early. I could have used a pre-tilted booster but that's a bit annoying to set up.

zpaNe1h.png

The four Thumpers are expended and the Pollux booster continues pushing to the edge of the atmosphere. The Pollux is a good balance between size, cost, and impulse of the Kickback and Thoroughbred boosters, while the Thumper is just there for an extra boost at the beginning.

M0tG2Bw.png

Booster burns out and I coast to the upper layers of the atmosphere before deploying the fairing. I lose more delta-v to gravity but I lose less to drag, and since the craft is not drag optimized apart from the Laythe lander, drag is more important.

fQQASg1.png

Very low drag means I can circularize within the atmosphere to at least get some benefit from the Oberth effect.

g4BjiZo.png

In orbit. Unlike the other low cost submission I do use electrical systems, since controlling landers with just gimbal is pretty annoying. I did forgo electricity for the Laythe lander but the craft is aerodynamically stable forward during ascent so it's much less annoying.

BaKOs4c.png

Two Mun assists give me a high orbit above Kerbin, which lets me escape Kerbin at a chosen time with much less delta-v than a direct escape burn.

6l1LGnJ.png

Executing Mun transfer

Uqynmey.png

Mun assist 1

6p1kahQ.png

Mun assist 2

jb6bVtG.png

Mun assist 3 rotates the orbit's line of apsides so I can eject in the right direction on the next assist.

F6L2RuJ.png

The next assist will put me into a 5:6 resonance with Kerbin - it doesn't have enough energy to do a 4:5. This still takes less time to get to Eve than my usual gravity assist route.

oDZuVYz.png

Final Mun assist

More space ping pong until Laythe

  Reveal hidden contents

XsDmP3Q.png

I can't get enough energy to go to Eve directly from Mun assists without spending too much fuel initially. This is why I took care to eject into an orbital resonance - so I can swing by Kerbin and the Mun another time, getting even more energy from its orbit. This assist gives me a plane change as well as dropping my orbit below Eve's orbit. Normally I do this twice but I didn't need to do that this time, which saves me four years (which doesn't usually matter but oh well)

dJCA5qR.png

View of plane change

J0jFJxT.png

Eve encounter. Note that the single Kerbin-Mun flyby didn't affect my velocity relative to Eve enough for a K-E-K-K-J route, so I won't be able to do that.

PVmBTYj.png

The Eve encounter puts me directly onto a Kerbin flyby. If I passed behind Kerbin, gaining velocity, I'd saturate the gravity assists before getting to Jool. Instead, I pass in front of Kerbin, increasing my Eve relative velocity and letting me do a second Eve assist, after which follow a pretty standard series of gravity assists. Here, you can see the second Kerbin assist and second Eve assist plotted. I didn't take screenshots of the rest because it's not that hard to do.

CPCvKBE.png

I drop the Laythe lander onto an aerobrake trajectory and use Laythe and Vall assists to drop the rest of the craft in Tylo orbit.

ENT0IcM.png
Detach

Laythe and Tylo landings

  Reveal hidden contents

NAi0x6x.png

Aerocapture straight to landing

efxZN6t.png

Parachutes deployed. Engines are activated too, to soften splashdown. The lander floats, but just barely.

YSFJCOs.png

Splashdown

15x9iDC.png

Laythe ascent

DopKuNi.png

This upper stage is a good design for very cheap landers. It consists of a chair, a decoupler, a spider engine, and a baguette tank. The decoupler is necessary because you have to detach it from something - it's not very good as a standalone mission - and you need a node attached part as the root for the lander.

gGZUdme.png

In fact, it's good enough that I have a lot of delta-v remaining after I reach orbit.

AKxMfVk.png

Tylo transfer

b8F0yv6.png

Captured in Tylo orbit

SkQs9yK.png

The lander had 200m/s remaining in low Tylo orbit but that's not enough to do anything interesting, and there's no docking port, so I have the kerbal bail out and let the fuel tanker pick him up.

sQnsQdt.png

Lowering orbit

tKh3pku.png

Setting up an intercept

Qs5b8YI.png

A joyful reunion

4rnNGYf.png

Tylo descent

NKWEYNp.png

Landed on Tylo

eM5LRj2.png

Tylo ascent. Note: the delta-v readings are a bit wonky because inventory mass isn't calculated correctly

ngsf1Nw.png

Back in orbit

rY244Fb.png

Vall transfer using the last of the transfer stage's fuel

Vall, Bop, Pol landings

  Reveal hidden contents

orq2gXf.png

Finishing Vall transfer

l9rq63c.png

Capture burn at Vall is higher than optimal, so a periapsis burn at Vall sets up a second Vall encounter with much lower of a capture burn.

vobTCEG.png

At this point I detach some empty fuel tanks to reduce mass

oyLXXaJ.png

Capture burn is 4 m/s instead of 200 ish from before. Saved about 150 m/s this way

KJuhB66.png

Vall descent

pIuyCd2.png

Landed on Vall

DMmHCoP.png

Vall ascent

jipkb1f.png

Rendezvous with tanker

DG79aEN.png

Detaching more tanks

avrlkBd.png

Pol transfer

mgGkMwO.png

Leaving as little fuel in the lander as possible for the landing

EboEVyl.png

Still way over budget

n1Ixswv.png

Intercept

rqHfQw1.png

Bop transfer, more tanks have been shed

RsYMW2h.png

The last three landings are the same - the tanker is left in elliptical orbit and the lander does the rest. This saves the fuel necessary to bring the tanker down and back up, and makes transfers between the moons smaller, at the cost of waiting a long time for the right transfer window.

7oRGS8T.png

Bop descent

oYVSDqb.png

Final landing

fwoamCb.png

Rendezvous

fApV6qF.png

Tanker is empty

7Awm4Ru.png

Stealing a solar panel

ybBDRPG.png

Finding a good Bop to Tylo transfer window is hard. So I don't bother. Instead, I burn prograde and then burn retrograde at Jool apoapsis, where I get a plane change off Tylo.

Return to Kerbin

  Reveal hidden contents

t20ylda.png

Tylo assist to a Kerbin encounter

iTuNthz.png

Two Kerbin encounters to reduce relative speed

RJ6tub4.png

I burn the rest of the fuel here to reduce heating. Not necessary but I took a pretty lazy approach back to Kerbin since I had a bunch of fuel left over

tAgMou7.png

Slowed down, aiming for the water

Bwib2b5.png

Bailed out here

75hJBFh.png

Splashdown

lsOYYLx.png

Landed back at Kerbin

 

Congratulations @camacju on completing the Jool 5 challenge, low cost subchallenge! You have beaten the previous record by just over 10,000 funds! I found you Laythe entry maneuver to be quite ballsy, and am impressed how much energy you were able to get out of Mun assists. Stealing the solar panel is also a new strategy that has not been used yet in a Jool 5 submission, so your mission is a first in more ways that one! I'll add your submission to the leaderboard now. :)

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On 3/9/2021 at 8:13 PM, Single stage to ocean said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wPtsYYpEfUsvZbTT8 my ssta working on low lf and fuel issues at minmus

based off of t-6 cannonball totally not ripoff

 

Yeah make sure you don't shamelessly copy another design. That's happened once before and didn't end very smoothly. Looks great though! Best of luck in your flight :)

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On 3/13/2021 at 2:14 PM, GigaG said:

Is it OK to "clip" an RTG into the center of a donut tank? There isn't any significant visual clipping, as the donut tank obviously has a hole in it.

Yeah that's fine.

On 3/14/2021 at 9:48 AM, The Minmus Derp said:

I'm doing a Grand Tour and I'm visiting the moons of Jool right now, how do I post pictures

It's refueleds

You could either make an imgur album and post it here or make the mission its own thread and link the thread here.

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On 3/16/2021 at 2:42 PM, JacobJHC said:

You could either make an imgur album and post it here or make the mission its own thread and link the thread here.

I'll probably redesign my craft and then do the mission again, as I was unable to land on Tylo or Slate so it wasn't a proper jool 5

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Hello, here's my submission for a Level1 entry! All details are in the mission report. 

(if the link to the mission report acts weird, here's the plain one https: //forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/201179-jool5-moar-motherships-edition-and-some-personal-rules/)

 

 

Edited by Goufalite
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On 3/16/2021 at 6:34 AM, king of nowhere said:

Well, my grand tour with kerbalism was already posted for the ultimate challenge, but since this thread collects also grand tours, i suppose i can get a mention here too.

 

Man that is a huge ship! Sorry for the delay, I've been looking it over here and there. I have just gotten to the Jool portion of the mission. I know I've been inactive, but I am reviewing the mission. Your drama and solutions to all of your mission issues make for one of the most entertaining mission reports I've read in a while.

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I'm thinking of giving this a go. Some quick questions:

1) Does it break rule 4 to stage parts off of the ship before arriving at Jool? I'd like to drop some empty tanks mid-route.

2) What's the highest apoapsis for LKO?

3) Regarding rule 2, would any of these be illegal:
  a. An Oscar-B tank or Spark engine sunk into the hole of the Doughnut tank
  b. A Mystery Goo unit placed vertically into a service bay and clipping out of the ends. (I'm not aiming for Jeb's Level, so this wouldn't be a "functional" part)
  c. A docking port sunk into a Science Jr
  d. A 0.625 nose cone placed horizontally, with Oscar-B tanks below it; the tanks naturally intersect the part they're placed on
  e. Any functional part clipped into a non-functional part (e.g. structural bi-adapter clipped into fuel tank)

Edited by AlpacaMall
update 3e example
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22 hours ago, AlpacaMall said:

I'm thinking of giving this a go. Some quick questions:

1) Does it break rule 4 to stage parts off of the ship before arriving at Jool? I'd like to drop some empty tanks mid-route.

2) What's the highest apoapsis for LKO?

3) Regarding rule 2, would any of these be illegal:
  a. An Oscar-B tank or Spark engine sunk into the hole of the Doughnut tank
  b. A Mystery Goo unit placed vertically into a service bay and clipping out of the ends. (I'm not aiming for Jeb's Level, so this wouldn't be a "functional" part)
  c. A docking port sunk into a Science Jr
  d. A 0.625 nose cone placed horizontally, with Oscar-B tanks below it; the tanks naturally intersect the part they're placed on
  e. Any functional part clipped into a non-functional part (e.g. structural bi-adapter clipped into fuel tank)

1. No, drop all the tanks you want.

2. 100km

3. 

a. no

b. no

c. Maybe, post a screenshot if you don't mind.

d. I'm confused, do you mean a radially attached docking port? Could you reply with a screenshot of that too?

e. Depends on the context, once again, screenshots will enable more thorough answers.

Hope that helps! Please do reply with screenshots so I may better understand your questions.

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On 3/16/2021 at 6:34 AM, king of nowhere said:

Well, my grand tour with kerbalism was already posted for the ultimate challenge, but since this thread collects also grand tours, i suppose i can get a mention here too.

 

Congratulations @king of nowhereon completing the Jool 5 Challenge! Did you complete this mission in science mode or in sandbox mode? Since it appears you had a different Kerbal on each moon, I am unsure whether to place you in Level 3 or Jeb's Level. Either way, the mission thread you put together is one of the most entertaining I've read in a while. All the trials and malfunctions and solar storms you had to deal with made the mission have very real stakes, and it's something that many Jool 5 missions lack. To top all of this off, you did it with Kerbalism installed, and dragged around a self-sufficient greenhouse ship with 400 tons of radiation shielding! Truly a very Kerbal mission :D

On 3/22/2021 at 6:14 PM, Goufalite said:

Hello, here's my submission for a Level1 entry! All details are in the mission report. 

(if the link to the mission report acts weird, here's the plain one https: //forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/201179-jool5-moar-motherships-edition-and-some-personal-rules/)

 

 

Congratulations @Goufalite on completing the Jool 5 Challenge on Level 1! This mission made me incredibly nostalgic for my first Jool 5 mission,  both in how the mission was flown and how the video flowed. I am a huge fan of the modular mothership design, and am impressed by your spaceplane. I also liked the capsule switch, I don't know why, but it's my favorite part of the ship! The music used also fit the video very well, and the blooper reel is something I haven't seen in a while (RIP solar panels which died during aerobraking,). Adding you to the leaderboards now.

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3 hours ago, JacobJHC said:

Hope that helps! Please do reply with screenshots so I may better understand your questions.

Design screenshots

(For 3c, clipping the docking port: My craft currently does the same thing with a docking port into a fairing (which I assume is fine), and with a docking port into a fuel tank (which I assume is not). Does that seem right?
And for 3d, the tiny nose cone: that's where it is when I place it. I didn't use the move tool to do that.)

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10 hours ago, JacobJHC said:

Congratulations @king of nowhereon completing the Jool 5 Challenge! Did you complete this mission in science mode or in sandbox mode?

 

sandbox.

not sure where it would fit better in the leaderboard, it certainly wasn't a jeb's level - if nothing else, kerbalism completely modifies the way science is collected

there were multiple kerbals per moon, and i had a total of 6 kerbals doing the various landings. i didn't keep track of which one landed where, i may qualify for the part where you land someone different on every moon. no wait, i don't, because the FU Eve only had one place, and i sent down the engineer both times - the mission needs the engineer cause he has to fix the engine. i don't even remember exactly what the other categories entailed

Edited by king of nowhere
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