Aircraft to rubble, dust to dust

[katateochi]

I've not really played much with 1.4.x aside from a few quick tests, but just started messing around with 1.4.2 and I'm finding that some of my aircraft, which have worked fine before are just falling apart on the runway when they are first loaded.  I've got a heavy transport SSTO (this one) which I built in 1.2.something and then updated for 1.3.x and it's been a very reliable craft.  But in 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 it disintegrates on the runway, BUT it works fine in 1.4.0.  

In 1.4.1/1.4.2 I can load it by launching, letting it fall apart, then turning the unbreakable joints cheat on and then reverting to launch (and then switching unbreakable joints off). And then after that it's happy.  I can even load it like that and then right away switch to a distant craft (outside of current physics range) and switch back and it doesn't fall apart.  It just seems to be an issue when launching it initially. physics easing is on, but that doesn't seem to help.

I'm wondering what has changed between 1.4.0 and 1.4.1/2 which would be causing this. I hear whispers about landing leg issues, but I've not played enough to experience that yet, but is there also an issue with landing gears? I've noticed when the craft falls apart the landing gears bounce and flip all over the place. So perhaps there is an issue there? I've also noticed that if I leave it sitting with the brakes on, it slowly rotates which it didn't do before.

Anyone else experiencing issues with heavy aircraft falling apart or having landing gear related issues in 1.4.1/2?

[Dimas152]

instead of getting my craft spawned mid-air, i got it half buried in the runway 
i raised the gear, lowering it again and it jumped several meter upward
i'm pretty sure it's the same thing that causes this

[Majorjim!]

Yup the wheels and legs are broken. Again. Yay for progress. I honestly cannot wait for squad to just stop messing with the game. It's just going to become a crappy money making exercise which will kill the game stone dead.

[Leopard]

nice to see the team responsible for the "extensive" console testing have been retained

[Mark Kerbin]

If you can mod your game, get kerbal joint reinforcement. Works well enough at keeping heavy craft alive.

[MaverickSawyer]

1 hour ago, Mark Kerbin said:

If you can mod your game, get kerbal joint reinforcement. Works well enough at keeping heavy craft alive.

There's a 1.4.2 compatible KJR release? Oh thank god.

[DerekL1963]

32 minutes ago, MaverickSawyer said:

There's a 1.4.2 compatible KJR release? Oh thank god.

Not an official one, no.

[MaverickSawyer]

Just now, DerekL1963 said:

Not an official one, no.

Aw.

[katateochi]

10 hours ago, Majorjim! said:

Yup the wheels and legs are broken. Again. Yay for progress

Joyous. oh well, guess I'll hold off doing anything serious for a bit.

10 hours ago, Majorjim! said:

I honestly cannot wait for squad to just stop messing with the game

yeah, same now.  Back in the day I used to look forward to updates, but now I'll I want are some fairly simple (at least in theory) quality improvements to existing features and stability/performance fixes & tweaks. 

10 hours ago, Majorjim! said:

It's just going to become a crappy money making exercise which will kill the game stone dead.

*sadface - I really hope you are wrong

[DoToH]

11 hours ago, Majorjim! said:

I honestly cannot wait for squad to just stop messing with the game.

Yeah, same here. Tired of KSP's never ending early access syndrome.

BTW, farings and drag calculations aren't in their best moment either, @katateochi. If  your planes don't behave as before, check for unexpected drag.

Edited April 10, 2018 by DoToH

[katateochi]

17 minutes ago, DoToH said:

If  your planes don't behave as before, check for unexpected drag.

Aside from a couple of the heavy ones just falling apart on the runway, I'm actually finding that I'm reaching LKO with slightly more spare dV than before! Now that could be due to piloting, having not played in a while I may have dropped some bad (inefficient) habits, or perhaps 1.3.x craft don't calculate drag as they should in 1.4.x or.....?  It's so hard to be sure of anything when the rules of the universe keep changing! 

[DoToH]

AFAIK , only parts that should be shielded inside fairings are affected. I know(think) that fairings are not common in aircraft designs and, as I'm more rocket than aircraft player, don't know if it is a big deal, but thought it could be useful to mention.

[Mark Kerbin]

1 hour ago, DerekL1963 said:

Not an official one, no.

 

1 hour ago, MaverickSawyer said:

Aw.

1.3 release works fine. Seriously i had a 1% drop in explosions, (Im a bad pilot) 

[GoSlash27]

I think this is due to the new version of Unity, not the folks at Squad. Or "TakeTwo", whatever...

We intrepid kerbonauts must take it upon ourselves to work around this for now.

Best,
-Slashy

[Dimas152]

we're not getting KJR for now, but we have 1.4.x compatible WorldStabilizer

[Majorjim!]

9 hours ago, katateochi said:

I really hope you are wrong

Me too man. Me too. I can feel the corporate squeeze already though.

[klgraham1013]

15 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

I think this is due to the new version of Unity, not the folks at Squad. Or "TakeTwo", whatever...

Let's not start with the "blame Unity" excuses again.  Squad made the choice to update the engine.  Squad choose to release a version with bugs easily spotted after playing for 5 minutes.  This has nothing to do with Unity.

[GoSlash27]

49 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

 

16 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

I think this is due to the new version of Unity, not the folks at Squad. Or "TakeTwo", whatever...

Let's not start with the "blame Unity" excuses again.  Squad made the choice to update the engine.  Squad choose to release a version with bugs easily spotted after playing for 5 minutes.  This has nothing to do with Unity.

 

Yeah, because it's *totally* reasonable to blame the people who have nothing to do with the faulty code. *roll eyes*

What would you have had them do, cancel the update because unity messed up the suspension?  

[DoToH]

5 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

What would you have had them do, cancel the update because unity messed up the suspension?  

Why not? Is that worse than releasing broken fairings, legs, engines, textures, re-enry effects and message spammming contracts?

Do you believe they didn't know about some bugs?

Maybe not cancel, but postpone release, could have been better option.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by DoToH

[klgraham1013]

6 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

Yeah, because it's *totally* reasonable to blame the people who have nothing to do with the faulty code. *roll eyes*

It is completely reasonable to blame someone for using the wrong tool for the job.

6 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

What would you have had them do, cancel the update because unity messed up the suspension?  

I will quote myself for clarity:

6 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Squad made the choice to update the engine.

As far as I know, nothing was forcing the Unity upgrade.  What would I have them do?  Fix the final big bugs in 1.3, and stick a fork in it.  Finish the game.  Don't release an update with actual eye rolling bugs like typos that eliminate IVAs or make fairings the wrong size.  Don't release an update that breaks one of the core gameplay loops of your game: Using landing legs to land things on other planets.  Just finish this game.

[katateochi]

22 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

We intrepid kerbonauts must take it upon ourselves to work around this for now.

well, yeah, that is the kerbal spirit, or at least it was. I guess I'm just getting a bit tired (after, crikey, nearly 6 years) of putting more time into designing around issues than designing around space related goals.  I didn't mind that in the early days, in fact it was even part of the challenge. But that was when we all wore the "it's alpha/beta" hats and the devs would hang out in here with us and all was cosy. Now things are different and the company has taken on a full-release & corporate contract stance, so I kinda expect something different from them; a degree of high grade professionalism. I don't expect to have to adjust to a changing set of physics rules with each update & I don't expect obvious bugs to make it through to release, that just seems suspiciously like the release was pushed to hit a deadline rather than hit a certain level of quality.

[GoSlash27]

1 hour ago, katateochi said:

that just seems suspiciously like the release was pushed to hit a deadline rather than hit a certain level of quality.

I don't doubt that myself. I'm sure the MH expansion was involved. My only point is that assigning blame and complaining is a favorite pasttime of some members of this forum, but all I'm looking for is the fix to the problem. I don't think the devs have the ability to fix this because the faulty code isn't under their control.

 Short of reverting to a pre- buggy version of KSP (which I and klgraham have already done), all I think we can do is wait until Unity patches their physics engine and find our own workarounds in the meantime.

 Best,
-Slashy

 

 

2 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

I will quote myself for clarity:

9 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Squad made the choice to update the engine.

It seems to me that since you've already done what you recommend they do (reverting to an earlier release), you've solved your problem Of course... had they done that, you'd be complaining about the lack of updates.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by GoSlash27

[steve_v]

14 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

Yeah, because it's *totally* reasonable to blame the people who have nothing to do with the faulty code. *roll eyes*

It's totally reasonable to blame the people who selected this Unity release for 1.4.x.
 

14 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

What would you have had them do, cancel the update because unity messed up the suspension?  

Delay the release until the problem is fixed, obviously. If that means waiting for an update from Unity or rolling back to a previous version, so be it.

Right now it's looking like we'll be getting an entire release cycle to flush down the toilet, due to engine bugs that should have been caught before anyone committed to basing 1.4 on this unity version. Just like we had with 1.1.x and the "double free or corruption" crashes.
Who wants to bet that joysticks being non-functional on GNU/Linux gets blamed on Unity and left unfixed too?

Failing to do proper testing and releasing with "unfixable" game engine bugs to meet a marketing agenda appears to be the SQUAD way. So does blaming such things on Unity.
Did anyone hold guns to the dev's heads and force them to work with this particular Unity release? No? Then it's not a Unity problem, and the blame rests squarely with whomever decided to roll with a broken engine and release the game regardless.

 

7 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

all I'm looking for is the fix to the problem.

Likewise. Got any clues? SQUAD doesn't appear to have one...
I'm also hoping to see some polished releases in the future, but if nobody complains then what we're getting must be okay.

Edited April 12, 2018 by steve_v

[Majorjim!]

13 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Just finish this game.

THIS. It's time to put a bow on KSP and put it out to pasture. So to speak.