Suggestion: Add research for component upgrade.

[frighter]

In current game, all the research is about unlocking new components for the rocket (or plane). But in some cases (or, most cases) the new unlocked part is not very useful or it doesn't help to improve the design. it is more like to allow you build larger and heavier crafts. So i have an suggestion: can we allow some research to improve the existing parts? For example, found a new type of fuel which can improve the ISP of thrusters. Or some new light weighted material can reduce the mass of fuselage. So the research is not only about build massive vehicle but also improves existing design. 

And further more, maybe we can connect these upgrades to the mineral in other planets! For example, to get the research of improved fuel, you must land and use the mining tools to collect the minerals on moon to unlock it. Isn't this an exciting idea?

[Gargamel]

I know this has been suggested a few times before, but I've never added much to it, so I will now :). 

 

Maybe instead of unlocking new techs that affect all parts, we could unlock a tech that would allow us to upgrade existing parts individually.  Lets say each part would have 3 tech levels, and you could spend science to upgrade the modules for the three levels. 

Your engine could have 3 choices, mass, thrust, or ISP.  You could spend the first science tech on increasing the thrust, and the second on ISP. 

Same with structural parts.  We can apply your new material to a certain tank, decreasing it's dry mass.  The volume of fuel would stay the same, as they are still the same size, just better built. 

Some things would become more efficient overall.  so something like a battery could use one of it's tech levels to make the material lighter, but the stored charge would be the same, or you could increase the charge, but keep the same mass.   And with the third tech level, you could add another bit of charge to it (+2 charge) or reduce the weight also (+1 Charge, -1 mass).   Antennas would have the same options, but with power and mass.

Experiments again with mass or returned science.  

Parts could also have a cost element in the techs.  Using a tech level to increase production efficiency would reduce the cost by say 5%. 

 

Each tech level would be a minor improvement, no more than 5% of original. 

[tseitsei89]

While this is an interesting idea, the problem is that this would kind of destroy one of the most important aspects of ksp IMO. 

And that is sharing your ships and creations with the community and participating in different forum challenges. Because after this change everyone would have their own versions of parts depending on what upgrades they choose so same ships would have different performance for different people. And that to me is unacceptable

[frighter]

5 minutes ago, tseitsei89 said:

While this is an interesting idea, the problem is that this would kind of destroy one of the most important aspects of ksp IMO. 

And that is sharing your ships and creations with the community and participating in different forum challenges. Because after this change everyone would have their own versions of parts depending on what upgrades they choose so same ships would have different performance for different people. And that to me is unacceptable

So there is two parts of your problem.

one is sharing, i think it will be okay because this won't break any existing design, you may get some difference about delta-V or TWR, but the design itself will not break for more Thrust or lighter weight.

one is playing challenges, i think it is easy to handle, there can be a option to disable all upgrades and every player use the stocking parts as they do now. 

[tseitsei89]

1 minute ago, frighter said:

So there is two parts of your problem.

one is sharing, i think it will be okay because this won't break any existing design, you may get some difference about delta-V or TWR, but the design itself will not break for more Thrust or lighter weight.

one is playing challenges, i think it is easy to handle, there can be a option to disable all upgrades and every player use the stocking parts as they do now. 

Oh but it might very well break the design if twr or dv is lowered...

The second point is valid but it might make game balancing increasingly hard since unupgraded parts must still remain usable but fully upgraded parts cant be totally op either.

[frighter]

18 minutes ago, tseitsei89 said:

Oh but it might very well break the design if twr or dv is lowered...

The second point is valid but it might make game balancing increasingly hard since unupgraded parts must still remain usable but fully upgraded parts cant be totally op either.

well, at least for me it won't break too much. Because you won't design a rocket can barely lift itself, so maybe you will use more fuel to escape the atmosphere, but it will fly anyway.

Besides, all existing design is using stock parts so you won't get a lowered TWR and DV, and the design designed with upgrade can tell what upgrade is required to work, just as a part need to be unlocked before you can use that design. You won't call "broken design" if it requires ASAS and you didn't research it yet, right?

Edited April 12, 2018 by frighter

[tseitsei89]

32 minutes ago, frighter said:

well, at least for me it won't break too much. Because you won't design a rocket can barely lift itself, so maybe you will use more fuel to escape the atmosphere, but it will fly anyway.

Besides, all existing design is using stock parts so you won't get a lowered TWR and DV, and the design designed with upgrade can tell what upgrade is required to work, just as a part need to be unlocked before you can use that design. You won't call "broken design" if it requires ASAS and you didn't research it yet, right?

It might fly yes but it might be unable to get where it needs to go which kind of makes it unusable.

As for my second point about balance: what I meant was that if you can upgrade parts many times by using science points, some parts might easily become "too good" so that you can "too easily" do anything you want with them. I mean, it already is relatively easy to go anywhere and back with stock parts so if you allow upgrades that becomes even easier. Maybe even too easy...

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, tseitsei89 said:

if you can upgrade parts many times by using science points

That's why you limit the number of upgrades.  The upgrades wouldn't be designed so you couldn't build a heavy lifter with just terriers.  It would just make them slightly more efficient, only a few % points worth.   And while that could feasibly break some designs, unless you are specifically min/maxing your designs, most people have a little cushion built in. 

And I would say keep the sandbox game at default, or maxed values, so if you are designing a challenge, the playing field is level.  If the challenge is in career mode, then that would be specified.  

[Laie]

11 hours ago, frighter said:

So i have an suggestion: can we allow some research to improve the existing parts?

The stock game already has a upgrade mechanism that allows to do just that, but none of the stock parts make use of it (Porkjet's engine overhaul does, though, and maybe other mods as well).

Regarding the sharing of craft, it should be trivial to store the upgrade in the craft file, and throw a warning when one lacks the tech to build it as saved. The game currently does *not* do it that way, however.

The worst downside I can imagine is that one could no longer determine a craft's capabilities just from looking at a screenshot. Doesn't really scare me.

[Tyko]

Try this:

 

[HeliosPh0enix]

On 4/11/2018 at 10:19 PM, Gargamel said:

I know this has been suggested a few times before, but I've never added much to it, so I will now :). 

 

Maybe instead of unlocking new techs that affect all parts, we could unlock a tech that would allow us to upgrade existing parts individually.  Lets say each part would have 3 tech levels, and you could spend science to upgrade the modules for the three levels. 

Your engine could have 3 choices, mass, thrust, or ISP.  You could spend the first science tech on increasing the thrust, and the second on ISP. 

Same with structural parts.  We can apply your new material to a certain tank, decreasing it's dry mass.  The volume of fuel would stay the same, as they are still the same size, just better built. 

Some things would become more efficient overall.  so something like a battery could use one of it's tech levels to make the material lighter, but the stored charge would be the same, or you could increase the charge, but keep the same mass.   And with the third tech level, you could add another bit of charge to it (+2 charge) or reduce the weight also (+1 Charge, -1 mass).   Antennas would have the same options, but with power and mass.

Experiments again with mass or returned science.  

Parts could also have a cost element in the techs.  Using a tech level to increase production efficiency would reduce the cost by say 5%. 

 

Each tech level would be a minor improvement, no more than 5% of original. 

This is a really cool idea, but it would add too many choices . I have trouble playing MMO/RPGs that require me to put specific points in different attributes, as I tend to either put all my points in one or evenly distribute them. Just kind of a mental hang up I have. It might work better for other people, but I personally prefer the more streamlined approach.

I really like the idea of getting the ability to do the upgrades by going to different planets. Right now, there is really not much in-game incentive to go to other planets, as the whole stock tech tree can be completed without leaving the Kerbin system, so any gameplay-based reason go further is a welcome addition.