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[1.8.1 - 1.12.2] KSP Interstellar Extended 1.29.5 Release Thread


FreeThinker

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5 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Why not better than 15000s? shouldn't you be able to mix charged particles and cold propellant into a plasma of million degrees? the same effectivly happens in a MCF reactor where charged particles get thermalized in its plasma.

Because mixing cold propellant REDICES YOUR Isp. When CP get thermalized is that the products dont scape and make heat. Cant see better than 15000 because is a low tech level engine and the product is He. 10000s is optimistic, 12000 is assuming, 15000 is in the edge of unobtanium. Its a direct fusión drive, and afterburning kills the purpose...

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5 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Well I was assuming Bremsstrahlung, not hard gamma rays. which I hope we can convert directly to energy or reflect by that time

Xrays cant be fully reflected by non degenerate matter, and partially reflected by multi layered 2D metamats, but inneficiently (about 1-1/layers as a rule of thumb).

Gammavoltaics have the same problem, just worse (I assume the MuonCat has a CP or MHD integrated and gammas scape, its more realistic). Neutronium like materials or quark matter is the only thing COULD (not sure/proven) do it.

 

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4 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

@AntaresMC Notice the 7000s for the NSWR war drived from Zubrin NSWR Conceptual Design Document. Do you you have any sources for the higher than 7000s claims?

Zubrin's design wasnt very well defined nor flawless and its main problem/limitation was heat, that I focused on solving. And in its original paper, that you cited me earlier, said "high thrust at 10000 Isp". Using UF4 and tweaking salt content/enrichment you can improve Isp exponentially. Also using D2O improves Isp.

Also Ive done the math and heat aint a problem in my model, ablator time is. So bring moar graphite and an engineer!

You can easily double heat by enriching to less than 30% (U233 cheap), get to 12000s (assuming 8000s start, railgun/mag nozzle adds) and cut ablator time by around 1/3. And graphite lasts very long (until almost 4000K) mabe around 1/2 an hour alone, more the more radiators.

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2 hours ago, AntaresMC said:

10000s is optimistic, 12000 is assuming, 15000 is in the edge of unobtanium.

I'm trying to understand how you get to this conclusion. What are the meachanisms that make it so hard? Notice the currently Discover has a slider which allow you to increase the  engine isp assuming we can mix CP with cold propellant in any ratio. But I might have been mistaken

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13 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

I'm trying to understand how you get to this conclusion. What are the meachanisms that make it so hard. Notice the current Discover has a slider which allow you to increase the  engine isp assuming we can mix CP with cold propellant in any ratio. But I might have been mistaken

The plasma is internally confined. Ill assume D-T as its surprisingly convenient, and Ill talk about Hcat D-D+D and He3cat D-D+D

Lets assume its transparent to neutrons and gammas, and 50% to Xrays. Well get around 15% fusion output, of which around 2/3 is CP, the other 1/3 is WasteHeat. The molten Li6 is pretty shiny until farUVso thermal rad has to try not to get to there, or the CP energy starts counting to WasteHeat. This limits Isp to around 3000ish assuming an accelerator nozzle with very little WasteHeat footprint. If you get all the way to the X spectrum, you get 1/2 (walls transparency) your thrust power and becomes harder to maintain plasma. Assuming OC cryocooling (including the Li6 and H fertiles) we can get up to 5000 (eith accel nozzle) easy and mabe 6000. To 10000s well need a healthy amount of radiators, but still plausible thermal generation. 12000, so petty TWR of radiators if decide to generate thermal power that better ion drive, radiators if not thermal generation, healthy, but possible. 15000, really need some kinda plasma window rads (a concept Ill suggest when finish it, but basicly the rad equivalent of GCNTRs) or pulse the engine (few secs fusion, cooldown, few secs...) that would let a lot of unburnt fuel. If pulsed so slowly thrust dont matter, mabe 20000s? But would have a pitty TWR, better a VASIMR...

In D-D fusions (no matter the cats, miau xD) you'd have not as much Li6 (or not at all in Hcat), cutting down Xray absorptivity down to around 1/4, but have 3x the CP (this is wasteheatly bad for an internal burn engine, thats why I said internal detonation is stupid in the NSWR) so 1.5× heat and bernstahlug, further limiting temp, so Isp, so kinda cancels out (a bit more Isp, but a bit more rads, less OC cooling, a bit less thrust, but not very different). In He3 cat still got Li6 layer, and have even more limited temp, but still even more bits of the above. I believe the extra bits of Isp balance out with the bad bits, and are so insignificant to compensate extra lawson criterion. 

Afterburning would kill all pourpuses and better a lighter engine, but its always good, even if I transform a 12000s 100kN in a 4000s 1000kN and a lotta H2 wasted Id still find uses (situational)...

And thats the story of why I hate internal burn egines! YEEY!:D

And remember, kids, internal burn engines suck, you have to pay your heat bill even for CP!

Edit: actually, you could improve the Isp not sure how much by reducing the amount of fuel and heating it more, but less power, less thrust and more plasma heating problems, and its pitty tnrust cant afford to be reduced a lot... Moreless if you 1/2 thrust, could afford multiply Isp by sqr2, with 4 times plama heating problems if use same power for it, and with lower energy budget (what I think defeats its main pro).

Also note Disc.'s thrust power is quite low, so the amount of cool propellant you can mix is really limited, 1st nozzlewise (doesnt look superdupper powerful) and 2nd its not worth it shooting more than your thrust power. If you cant heat more than, lets say 10 times your mass flow, shoot 11 and that last will be exactly as if you shooted by a cold gas thruster. I dont know the Psp of KSPIE's engine nor Im hard-working enough to do the math now (Im still 1/2 asleep xP), but HSP (human space program, you know, that cool aerospace sim) one had very little room for shifting gears, more like afterburns for emergency or going outta LEO in a sane time than actual gears (mainly because it was designed with a the-alt-is-ion-drives perspective and thrust didnt matter)...

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1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

@AntaresMC You are still very confusing I had the Discovery based on the description of the Discovery Fusion engine found at the atomic rockets website. There they listed it having a standard plasma exhaust speed of  347,000 m/s or 35,435 s.

AR gives very litle info about that but even it makes sense, 1st, the Isp can be improved by reducing fuel mass flow, no need for afterburner. This depends on the size of the engine, as its directly limited by its thermal inertia; so if we get that Disc2 is around 10m diameter, which is like 9 times the area, so if same mass flow, you can take around 3 times the heat, BUT thrust is around 1/5, so heat can be rised a bit less than 2.5 times (lets say 3 because better materials, and rounding) so 9 times the heat is 3 times the Isp, 12000×3=36000 (the bit less is for housekeeping). The good thing of the Disc. is that you have a defined thrust power and unlike most engines, the more gas you give, the more thrust less Isp without need of afterburning (Ok, mabe unburnt fertiles as Li6 or H, and you save weight in a closed loop). AND LOOK AT THE HELL OF RADIATORS ARE THERE! The more radiators and the more size the more thrust power, so this engine works better bigger, twice as big, and twice the radiators, twce the fuel, same acceleration, twice the payload/dV (not both, but still, linear, take that rocket ecuation, your tyranny is over! (Aw, sh1t, still gets exponentially bigger, just not in fuel. NOOOO! YOU WIN AGAAINN! WHYYYYY?!)). 

Also most direct fusion drives have pitty thrust at 10-20e3 Isp because as have low thrust they are designed for small probes. WRONGG! You have to take advantage to the sqr cube law (actually, line square?) Ok, anyway, go big or go home.:D

Edit: the more Isp you get, the less power you get since its a quadratic relationship :P so there is a max thrust at where plasma is too cold and a max Isp where start needing power to run, killing the purpose. Again, the solution is scale up! (Or mabe put rads but thats boring)

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22 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Well the Daedalus fusion engine will also get an update next release. The Daedalus Fusion Engine will only need access to (active/stored) power to startup but once it produces thrust, it will sustain itself and even produce significant amounts of surplus power. This means you only need a small nuclear reactor to charge up the capacitors and keep life support active during cruise

Will it be a complete overhaul or just make it self sustaining?

If 1st, Ive redone the old Daedalus from HSP to tansform it into an interstellar candle candle (torchlike thrust power, optimized for Isp), I did at the start of lockdown as I wanted it to be the main long range, big payloads (its mothership has a mini O'neil cylinder...) drive, capable of brachistochrones anywhere in a system and 6-10 year interstellar travel (its ambiented in a cluster, so stars are like 1 LY appart, its an around 16%c average) for a K1.2-1.3ish civ.

First, I got rid of the particle beams, better cryo UV lasers and the pellet canyon, better a railgun, next, changed the nozzle to an open dome-shaped mag nozzle, around 45° (like 1/2 dome in height) with a ring behind with all lasers. The inner border of the nozzles end is the mirrors.

I use solid He3+D-He3 in Li6D coverd pellets (the He3 is in liqid bubles)(if Im gonnna use a material, I use one that gives extra energy). The shadow shield is cooled by Li6, to breed He3.

The nozzle makes a steep S curve to make room for an MHD to recharge capacitors, then a VISTA nozzle (how do I love it).

All the nozzle is covered in carbon nanotube reinforced graphite, with thee C tubes filled with solid H2 that vaporizes long before the graphite, allowing for OC cooling. This is made because in my setting H is dirt cheap, even given for free sometimes due to starlifting and automation, but in KSPIE graphite would do the same... Also this makes it more resistant to weapons fire, but again, for KSPIE is useless

He4 propellant is inyected as is a byproduct of He3 breeding and have to get rid of anyway, free dV. Also He4 is dirtcheap too by the same reason. LmH2 prop (regular H2 would be OK, but denser and energy is real cheap in the setting) can be added as well to add thrust, its used basicly to evade fights and planet captures.

Ive made some sketchs, Ill find em (or make a new one) and send it

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1 hour ago, AntaresMC said:

AR gives very litle info about that but even it makes sense, 1st, the Isp can be improved by reducing fuel mass flow, no need for afterburner. This depends on the size of the engine, as its directly limited by its thermal inertia; so if we get that Disc2 is around 10m diameter, which is like 9 times the area, so if same mass flow, you can take around 3 times the heat, BUT thrust is around 1/5, so heat can be rised a bit less than 2.5 times (lets say 3 because better materials, and rounding) so 9 times the heat is 3 times the Isp, 12000×3=36000 (the bit less is for housekeeping).

This actually makes a lot of scene from a balance point of view. Next release I will scale the isp gear range with the size of the plasmanozzle (default 3 multiplier) and put baseIsp Discovery at 12000s allowing it to shift isp between 12000s - 36000 on hydrogen

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3 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

This actually makes a lot of scene. Next release I will scale the isp gear range with the size of the plasmanozzle (default 3 multiplier) and put baseIsp Discovery at 12000s allowing it to shift isp between 12000s - 36000 on hydrogen

FORGET ABOUT AFTERBURNING!

Its useless as increasing the fuel flow does the same but increases power prpduction as well. Ok, mabe if you are low on fuel and you dont need that much power, but where is that kerbal overengineering and moar powah philosophies?

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42 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

Will it be a complete overhaul or just make it self sustaining?

No It will just become self sustaining and produce some excess power to run onboard systems.Technically this allows you you to charge the engine super capacitors using PV cells , perform a  brachistochrone maneuver before you can use solar cells again

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3 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

No It will just become self sustain and produce some excess power to run onboard systems.Technically this allows you you to charge the engine super capacitators using PV cells , and then thrust all the way to your destination.

Ah :(, OK, Ill post some bluelrints anyway if someday you feel like changing it or I learn CGI models...

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4 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

FORGET ABOUT AFTERBURNING!

Its useless as increasing the fuel flow does the same but increases power prpduction as well. Ok, mabe if you are low on fuel and you dont need that much power, but where is that kerbal overengineering and moar powah philosophies?

for me, those are the same things, they trade higher isp for lower thrust, and vice versa. Sometimes you just need more thrust for maneuver, especially moon injections, other times you want to maximize your isp to conserve isp. If needed you also have the option of going pure fusion mode when your out of propellant.

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7 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

for me, those are the same things, they trade higher isp for lower thrust, and vice versa. Sometimes you just need more thrust for maneuver, especially moon injections, other times you want to maximize your isp to conserve isp. If needed you also have the option of going pure fusion mode when your out of propellant.

I know, Im just saying that they aint needed because adding more fusion fuel has the same effect but also makes more CP for the generator, they are  cooler CP so the overall perfomance of the plasma nozzle/MHD is the same, but CP converter operates more efficiently when a lot slow, as slow means less resistance and less mag field twists and weird things...

Only scenario I see afterburning is if youve got lH2, little fuel and dont need megajoules, but kinda situational...

Its more like VASIMR than like VISTA, you dont vary the prop flow, vary the fuel flow

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56 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

If 1st, Ive redone the old Daedalus from HSP to tansform it into an interstellar candle candle (torchlike thrust power, optimized for Isp), I did at the start of lockdown as I wanted it to be the main long range, big payloads (its mothership has a mini O'neil cylinder...) drive, capable of brachistochrones anywhere in a system and 6-10 year interstellar travel (its ambiented in a cluster, so stars are like 1 LY appart, its an around 16%c average) for a K1.2-1.3ish civ.

First, I got rid of the particle beams, better cryo UV lasers and the pellet canyon, better a railgun, next, changed the nozzle to an open dome-shaped mag nozzle, around 45° (like 1/2 dome in height) with a ring behind with all lasers. The inner border of the nozzles end is the mirrors.

I use solid He3+D-He3 in Li6D coverd pellets (the He3 is in liqid bubles)(if Im gonnna use a material, I use one that gives extra energy). The shadow shield is cooled by Li6, to breed He3.

The nozzle makes a steep S curve to make room for an MHD to recharge capacitors, then a VISTA nozzle (how do I love it).

All the nozzle is covered in carbon nanotube reinforced graphite, with thee C tubes filled with solid H2 that vaporizes long before the graphite, allowing for OC cooling. This is made because in my setting H is dirt cheap, even given for free sometimes due to starlifting and automation, but in KSPIE graphite would do the same... Also this makes it more resistant to weapons fire, but again, for KSPIE is useless

He4 propellant is inyected as is a byproduct of He3 breeding and have to get rid of anyway, free dV. Also He4 is dirtcheap too by the same reason. LmH2 prop (regular H2 would be OK, but denser and energy is real cheap in the setting) can be added as well to add thrust, its used basicly to evade fights and planet captures.

Ive made some sketchs, Ill find em (or make a new one) and send it

I do have some plans to add multi fuel modes to this partmodule, it would allow you use more common or exotic fusion modes like (D-D, D-Li, H-B etc), of course at different degrees or wasteheat , isp, thrust and tech level

9 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

I know, Im just saying that they aint needed because adding more fusion fuel has the same effect but also makes more CP for the generator, they are  cooler CP so the overall perfomance of the plasma nozzle/MHD is the same, but CP converter operates more efficiently when a lot slow, as slow means less resistance and less mag field twists and weird things...

Only scenario I see afterburning is if youve got lH2, little fuel and dont need megajoules, but kinda situational...

Yes it is situational, but it is certainly possible, and I like options. So now we have an upper limit of 36000s, a default of 12000s, but what would be the lower limit? 6000s?

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25 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

I do have some plans to add multi fuel modes to this partmodule, it would allow you use more common or exotic fusion modes like (D-D, D-Li, H-B etc), of course at different degrees or wasteheat , isp, thrust and tech level

I believe OPdalus is best with He3-D+He3 and He3 breeding (what lotta He3s lol) surrounded by Li6D. Differnt fusion modes wont help because at that stage you are suposed to have He3 and other things make N, or heat (yes, D-T), or are sh1t (looking at you H-B) or them all (cough, D-D) or straight up bad-and-wasteful (this He3-He3 of today...) or unobtanium (eh? H-H, dD and spin pol) or useless for thrust (have you heard me, tri He and the cold ones?)

The only thing I can think of actually beficial is aH cat (with or without fission) and Nium(not even in the mod) and if they are added, Ill start calling it Brokedalus...

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21 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

Its more like VASIMR than like VISTA, you dont vary the prop flow, vary the fuel flow

You cannot increase the fuel flow with a Magnetic Confinement Reactors, the fusion rate is already caped, you can only increase the amount of cold propellant, but I imagin that the more propellant you add, the high the power requirements become.

For inertial Fusion Engines however, we could increase the fuel flow, lowering the effective fusion, but increase. It could be an option I add to the deadalus fusion engine.

7 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

I believe OPdalus is best with He3-D+He3 and He3 breeding (what lotta He3s lol) surrounded by Li6D. Differnt fusion modes wont help because at that stage you are suposed to have He3 and other things make N, or heat (yes, D-T), or are sh1t (looking at you H-B) or them all (cough, D-D) or straight up bad-and-wasteful (this He3-He3 of today...) or unobtanium (eh? H-H, dD and spin pol) or useless for thrust (have you heard me, tri He and the cold ones?)

I think you shouldn't discount neutron rich fusion modes like D-D fusion, because given enough radiators, its feasible. Considering Deuterium is practically free compared to Helium-3, its a serious option if time is a constraint. Similarity, H-B fusion produces a lot less power but it is relatively cheap and produces even less neutrons as D-He3

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11 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

You cannot increase the fuel flow with a Magnetic Confinement Reactors, the fusion rate is already caped, you can only increase the amount of cold propellant, but I imagin that the more propellant you add, the high the power requirements become.

For inertial Fusion Engines however, we could increase the fuel flow, lowering the effective fusion, but increase. It could be an option I add to the deadalus fusion engine.

Nope, because the cap is well above the heat cap Ive talked earlier, and the proof is that require constant heating. In a capped MCF, the heat of CP clashing is enough to maintain at least the easy boy of D-T, (that I used in the 1st post as example) without more than a bit of supervision, and Li is shiny, probably enough for itself...

This would add a size cap at where increasing fuel flow is impossible and start needing lH2, Im not gonna calculate, Im lazy, but I think a priori its above the 40m cap of TweaksScale...

Would require a bit of twisting to maintain pressures but you have to heat it anyway, havent you? This makes it pulsed but so many times per sec that doesnt matter

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13 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

I think you shouldn't discount neutron rich fusion modes like D-D fusion, because given enough radiators, its feasible. Considering Deuterium is practically free compared to Helium-3, its a serious option if time is a constraint. Similarity, H-B fusion produces a lot less power but it is relatively cheap and produces even less neutrons as D-He3

Dont discount, only say He3 can be breed, you have plenty of time in an interstellar journey and there isnt life support (I play with USI :C).

D and B are cheap but in KSPIE money aint a problem (cough, UF4) and by that time you should have He3.

Ive never said D-He3, this reaction is bad, but there are 2 similar reactions, He3cat D-D (cheap, around 10%N, similar to D-D energywise) and He3+He3-D, that is as clean as H-B an a gazillion times better in all but cheap. Only truly aneutronics are CNO (slow, unobtanium), tri He (high lawson, low power) and H-H (unobtanium, too slow for usable thrust, and yes, I wanna overhaul Unobtusstard). And He3-He3, horribly wasteful and moneymoneymoney but good as a fusion... The one I propose for OPdalus is He3+D-He3, not cause radiators or heat (mag nozzle dont care, they dont give a fVck), but cause Isp, the He3-He3-D is the most energetic when we discount Lawson, N and Gammas.

Still waiting for spin pol D-T engine, it doesnt make sense to be a reactor mode, its useless for power!

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5 minutes ago, AntaresMC said:

Still waiting for spin pol D-T engine, it doesnt make sense to be a reactor mode, its useless for power!

What would be the engine performance of spin pol D-T compaired to He3-He3-D?

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Just now, FreeThinker said:

What would be the engine performance of spin pol D-T compaired to He3-He3-D?

80% of its energy becomes well directed that dont wanna spread out as this pussy CP tamed neutrons!

The other 15%CP do whatever you want, they are no longer the star and the rest, a few Xvoltaics, gamma transparency and violà, the most efficient fusion engine youll get, at the cost of only can have one (mag interference would break spin polarizing) and have so little thrust you're gonna wanna DIE, but hey! Youve got 18%c EV! THATS LIKE 6Ms! Ok, mabe you should measure its thrust in hummingbirds but, you can do what Squad did with the ion drive and 1/2 Isp but multiply thrust by 1000

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1 hour ago, AntaresMC said:

Still waiting for spin pol D-T engine, it doesnt make sense to be a reactor mode, its useless for power!

Useless you say, it still currently the easiest achievable fusion mode (until we master UDD fusion).  Yes it highly neutronic but can be usefull at medium isp levels. ALso because it reacts so easily it will remain the most powerfull fusion fuel were maximum raw power output is required. 

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3 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Useless you say, it still currently the easiest achievable fusion mode (until we master UDD fusion).  Yes it highly neutronic but can be usefull at medium isp levels. ALso because it reacts so easily it will remain the most powerfull fusion fuel were raw power output is required. 

The thing is that spin pol "tames" neutrons, eo you can use them for thrust.

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1 hour ago, AntaresMC said:

80% of its energy becomes well directed that dont wanna spread out as this pussy CP tamed neutrons!

The other 15%CP do whatever you want, they are no longer the star and the rest, a few Xvoltaics, gamma transparency and violà, the most efficient fusion engine youll get, at the cost of only can have one (mag interference would break spin polarizing) and have so little thrust you're gonna wanna DIE, but hey! Youve got 18%c EV! THATS LIKE 6Ms! Ok, mabe you should measure its thrust in hummingbirds but, you can do what Squad did with the ion drive and 1/2 Isp but multiply thrust by 1000

Ok, so spin pol D-T  won't work in a MCF, what about a Z-Pinch or ICF?

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