Patch 1.4.3 to be released next week!

[Sirad]

' And when devs are operating in a bug-rich environment... '

I love that Sentence. So the Dev's created their own microclimate... This is something self fulfilling aint ?

 

[scimas]

To all those defending squad with "it's a small company, stop being demanding," "it's software, of course it's going to have bugs," "software development is totally different from other manufacturing / development, you can't same QA from both," "they updated unity engine, that is a big change, bugs were bound to happen" and the best of them all "stop whining."

No, just no. I don't care whether it's software or a piece of furniture or a submarine, it's a product, a product I paid money for; a product that was working almost perfectly fine in 1.3.1 and was then broken by an update. And then subsequent updates failed to mend those broken things. Yes, I'm going to demand a bugfix.

And are you saying that squad are amateurs? That if you could figure out that updating unity would introduce bugs then they couldn't? What were squad doing then? Shouldn't the update have been through even more rigorous checks if it was going through a big change?

Someone has posted a module manager patch for landing legs. That is wonderful of that person! I think they even said "it is a very simple MM patch." But the point is that mods should exist to add or improve functionality, not for bug fixes, however easy it may have been for you to fix. If I just bought the game and have no idea that it is moddable or that ksp forums is a thing, and I have no idea that I can grab a previous version of the game that is more bug free; I should still be able to play the game without difficulty. If I managed to send my first rocket to space, the re-entry effects shouldn't make the rocket partially invisible. The effects shouldn't change suddenly depending on the camera position... The list can just go on and on.

The criticism they are receiving in this thread is very much deserved in my opinion.

[Gargamel]

23 hours ago, passinglurker said:

And it is for that reason it isn't too much to ask that the product ordered be delivered without obvious flaws, and with a pleasing level of polish, cause it not a big deal right? so it shouldn't be hard for salaried professionals right? 

In a utopian world, sure.  But things happen, avoidable or not, and people should relax and undertand, it's just a game.  It's not a life saving device that will kill you if you use the current version.  It's a game. 

[Gargamel]

17 hours ago, Tyko said:

If I knew about the bugs in MH/1.4.x I wouldn't have bought MH or updated. 

I only updated from 1.2 to 1.3.1 a couple weeks before the update so I could install the stable mods easier.  I'll wait again until everything is copacetic before updating again.    Hence why I don't get upset.   I know how to wait.  

[invision]

i know this is going to sound completely crazy but........

*equips flame shield*

there are other games to play while KSP gets its flat tire patched. you may even find something you like just as much....ya never know!

[severedsolo]

49 minutes ago, invision said:

there are other games to play while KSP gets its flat tire patched. you may even find something you like just as much....ya never know!

Blasphemy! Burn the unbeliever!

In all seriousness though, the game is perfectly playable as it is, landing legs just make it a bit more.... challenging.

[n.b.z.]

On 4/13/2018 at 12:05 AM, UomoCapra said:

Hello everyone,

Next week we will be releasing patch 1.4.3

That's still accurate, for very large values of week.



(In the meantime, I'll still play KSP, as my older versions don't stop working just because a new one is announced.)

[Sirad]

1 hour ago, n.b.z. said:

That's still accurate, for very large values of week.



(In the meantime, I'll still play KSP, as my older versions don't stop working just because a new one is announced.)

It is accurate anyway because 'next week' is not this week and points accurately.

Its done when its done. i prefer waiting quite a very long value if its really done then.

[Serenity]

5 hours ago, Gargamel said:

In a utopian world, sure.  But things happen, avoidable or not, and people should relax and undertand, it's just a game.  It's not a life saving device that will kill you if you use the current version.  It's a game. 

'''Its just a game''' its a phrase that belongs to the past.Games have become more than entertainment, they are part of our life and some of them, like Kerbal,

are part of our creativity and help in many ways to wake up that miserable brain of ours or even keep the spirit up.

Anyways my point is that the phrase ''its just a game'', its a personal opinion and not an infinite power excuse.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by Boyster

[Nataris]

I'm just going to say this.  A free market, capitalistic economy only works when consumers hold companies, and there products, accountable for the product they sell.  Whether it's an important product like medical syringes or something as silly as a whoopie cushion.

 

Consumer rights are a foundational pillar of our economic structure.  Giving a company a pass, for any reason, when they sell a highly flawed product goes directly against self interest as well as the principles of capitalism. 

 

This isn't about video games and certainly isn't about an indie developer.  It's about an economic structure that is losing its foundations because consumers no longer do there part to make capitalism function as it should. 

 

The banking and auto industries bail outs are perfect example of what happens when consumers dont utilize the power they have.  And no, I'm not comparing a $15 game to a billion dollar housing bubble.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by Nataris

[Skystorm]

@steve_v Actually, you aren't sacrificing anything.  Believe me they can still explode if you land hard, but they should behave more like normal until they can be fixed permanently.

The 10x number I came up with wasn't arbitrary.  It was because the logs were showing an impact speed that was about 10 times the actually vertical speed.  In my particular case, a little over 2.1 m/s touch down speed was registering as a 21+ m/s impact.

That is what is causing the landing legs to explode because all it takes for a 14 m/s crash tolerance is to land at 1.4 m/s or higher which is why they seem so sensitive.

In fact, I'm starting to think the notion that docking has become more difficult may not just be perception but rather related to the same bug.  If it is applying the same effect to all impacts, then a 1 m/s docking approach would seem like 10 m/s and would certainly explain bouncing off and flying away at a relatively high speed with respect to the approach speed.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Skystorm

[Waxing_Kibbous]

On 4/23/2018 at 6:35 AM, MarvinKosh said:

...

Hey it's Marvin from Rimworld! Hello Marvin! Any plans to mod KSP?

[T1mo98]

14 hours ago, scimas said:

To all those defending squad with "it's a small company, stop being demanding," "it's software, of course it's going to have bugs," "software development is totally different from other manufacturing / development, you can't same QA from both," "they updated unity engine, that is a big change, bugs were bound to happen" and the best of them all "stop whining."

No, just no. I don't care whether it's software or a piece of furniture or a submarine, it's a product, a product I paid money for; a product that was working almost perfectly fine in 1.3.1 and was then broken by an update. And then subsequent updates failed to mend those broken things. Yes, I'm going to demand a bugfix.

And are you saying that squad are amateurs? That if you could figure out that updating unity would introduce bugs then they couldn't? What were squad doing then? Shouldn't the update have been through even more rigorous checks if it was going through a big change?

Someone has posted a module manager patch for landing legs. That is wonderful of that person! I think they even said "it is a very simple MM patch." But the point is that mods should exist to add or improve functionality, not for bug fixes, however easy it may have been for you to fix. If I just bought the game and have no idea that it is moddable or that ksp forums is a thing, and I have no idea that I can grab a previous version of the game that is more bug free; I should still be able to play the game without difficulty. If I managed to send my first rocket to space, the re-entry effects shouldn't make the rocket partially invisible. The effects shouldn't change suddenly depending on the camera position... The list can just go on and on.

The criticism they are receiving in this thread is very much deserved in my opinion.

Go to your Steam library, click on KSP, click on Properties, navigate to Betas and select 1.3.1 from the drop-down menu. So stop whining, since there is still a perfectly valid way to play without major bugs.

Squad is not a triple-AAA publisher and they do not have infinite resources and time. A game like KSP is inherently prone to bugs, and with every new release and new things added it gets more complicated.
I have a job in testing software and looking for bugs, and I can tell you it's not always as simple as you think it is. 
You don't care if it is software or furniture, but let me tell you, hitting a nail into a sofa to repair a broken armrest is a hell of a lot easier than trying to fix bugs in software, especially in something as big and complicated as a consumer videogame.

Also, how much are you exaggerating the problems? Yes, landing legs are a bit buggy and re-entry effects aren't that great now, but that hardly makes the game unplayable.
 

[silverfox101]

Because a job may be hard, or a company does not have infinite resources is irrelevant when it comes to selling that product to a customer. I as a customer am interested in the end product, not office politics or if they have enough resources to do the job in hand. AAA or not that doesn't matter. If it was an ISP for instance and wasn't delivering the service it said it would I'm sure nobody would tolerate them saying well its complicated. Just my opinion 

[Lisias]

41 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

Because a job may be hard, or a company does not have infinite resources is irrelevant when it comes to selling that product to a customer. I as a customer am interested in the end product, not office politics or if they have enough resources to do the job in hand.

I could not agree more.

42 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

AAA or not that doesn't matter. 

I could not agree less. :-)

My expectation level is proportional to the "size" of the service/product provider. If I buy some electronics from the local grandpa shop, I do not expect they have a specialist available for every tech doubt I would have on the product. On the other hand, while buying on a big chain store, I do not expect that their specialist would be interested on my personal needs (as would grandpa's), but on his own commission from the selling. 3:-)

Trying a more related analogy: my expectations on Rodina are totally different from my expectations from Elite Dangerous. I do not demand from Elliptic the same I demand from Frontier.

You can't have the cake and eat it too. If you want a somewhat indie, non mainstream game, you have to accept the conditions that a indie, non mainstream game producer can offer to you.

43 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

If it was an ISP for instance and wasn't delivering the service it said it would I'm sure nobody would tolerate them saying well its complicated. 

Internet is a commodity nowadays. I think that something like a Streaming Service (as Netflix, for example) would be a better comparison.

59 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

 Just my opinion 

Just mine too. :-)

[silverfox101]

ISP was the first thing that entered my head, but I take your point. We can only express our opinions and be it ISP or Netflix I still have the same opinion. 

21 minutes ago, Lisias said:

You can't have the cake and eat it too. If you want a somewhat indie, non mainstream game, you have to accept the conditions that a indie, non mainstream game producer can offer to you.

That's not really an objective argument, If I'm paying I expect a certain level of quality, it may differ from yours or others expectations but we all think differently. Being indie or non mainstream isn't a valid enough reason to expect nothing and accept anything.  Just my thoughts after reading comments. Anyway I'm off this thread now its giving me a headache  It will be next week soon enough. Thanks for the response though @Lisias 

 P.S Elite dangerous looks amazing, have they stayed faithful to the original Elite, I loved that game

Edited April 24, 2018 by silverfox101

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, Skystorm said:

In fact, I'm starting to think the notion that docking has become more difficult may not just be perception but rather related to the same bug.  If it is applying the same effect to all impacts, then a 1 m/s docking approach would seem like 10 m/s and would certainly explain bouncing off and flying away at a relatively high speed with respect to the approach speed.

I'm on 1.4.1, and I'm facing some trouble on docking too. But mine appears to be related to some collisions on the collision mesh (pun not intended! honest!).  I managed to workaround it using the offset tool, positioning the docking ports slighted offset from the parent part, as in the screenshot (on the left, only one dock accepts a ship, all the others bounce them away!).

[LameLefty]

14 hours ago, invision said:

i know this is going to sound completely crazy but........

*equips flame shield*

there are other games to play while KSP gets its flat tire patched. you may even find something you like just as much....ya never know!

Indeed. And it just so happens that THE WITCHER III: THE WILD HUNT GoTY Edition was on sale on GOG.com last week for twenty bucks. I've played it on console but never finished and since I never bought the DLC, it was an easy purchase. And as I play through the earlier aspects of the game again I recall how much fun it is and why so many consider it one of the best - perhaps even THE best - open world RPG adventure game of recent years. :)

So yeah, after 5+ years playing KSP, Kerbin can wait for a bit.  I'm spending some time with Geralt of Rivera and his buddies for awhile. 

 

[Lisias]

11 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

 P.S Elite dangerous looks amazing, have they stayed faithful to the original Elite, I loved that game

Do you see what I mean now? :-)

Now compare the Frontier Developments from nowadays, with this Company at the times of the Elite Frontier and First Encounters. (I had played with these games *at launching* - and yes, they were so buggy as KSP is now on the release! Honest!).

[silverfox101]

@Lisias I bought KSP at 1.0 and have loved it, the only reason I say about the issues I had were not because I don't expect there to be issues, Its I don't expect there to be the same issues that I have experienced in earlier versions that have previously been fixed. If you know what I mean. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy KSP I enjoy it almost as much as I enjoy X Plane, Homeworld and Civ 5 and that's saying something.

I blame Jeb anyway he is always first in the pod,

[Tyko]

25 minutes ago, Lisias said:

 

Do you have SSPX installed? They sure look like the SSPX replacement models.

Also, that whitish oval partially covering the bluish light isn't part of the model that I've seen - neither stock nor SSPX. Is it possible you have something clipping through it?

EDIT: one last thought...maybe it's the collider for the 6-way hub that's your problem? That would explain why nudging the ports out a bit works better.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Tyko

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, Tyko said:

Do you have SSPX installed? They sure look like the SSPX replacement models.

Nice catch! I installed it today! :-) To tell you the true, it's the first time I load this vessel after installing it.

But the problem was happening (and was solved) last week, way before the last install mod frenzy. :-)

But... Yeah, I think I should test it using a clean KSP install. I will reply about soon.

 

4 hours ago, Tyko said:

Also, that whitish oval partially covering the bluish light isn't part of the model that I've seen - neither stock nor SSPX. Is it possible you have something clipping through it?

Oh, I had forgot about it. It's a Kerbal Electric Marker Light, RGB(0.4, 0.4, 0.4). They were installed after the problem were solved, so they're not related for sure. It's not (only) for aesthetically reasons, I was having trouble on manually docking by eye, and these lights save my day! 

(I didn't knew that SSPX added a light to the Clamp-o-tron! First time loading this vessel since SSPX, really!)

]

 

4 hours ago, Tyko said:

EDIT: one last thought...maybe it's the collider for the 6-way hub that's your problem? That would explain why nudging the ports out a bit works better.

Initially, I was using the K&k 6 Ended Modular Corridor (just because it is pretty! :-) ). Thinking it could be something with the Corridor, I rebuilt it using the hub and got precisely the same result. I didn't tried this workaround on K&K's however. Once it worked, it stayed.

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Lisias
typos...

[StrandedonEarth]

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, silverfox101 said:

@Lisias I bought KSP at 1.0 and have loved it, the only reason I say about the issues I had were not because I don't expect there to be issues, Its I don't expect there to be the same issues that I have experienced in earlier versions that have previously been fixed. If you know what I mean. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy KSP I enjoy it almost as much as I enjoy X Plane, Homeworld and Civ 5 and that's saying something.

"Good customers complain. Bad customers just go away." :-)

We can disagree in how we express our expectations and affections, but believe-me - we have an agreement on the expectations and affections. 

[Kerbart]

19 hours ago, scimas said:

No, just no. I don't care whether it's software or a piece of furniture or a submarine, it's a product, a product I paid money for; a product that was working almost perfectly fine in 1.3.1 and was then broken by an update. And then subsequent updates failed to mend those broken things. Yes, I'm going to demand a bugfix.

Where were you 3 years ago? Squad seems to completely ignore most of us here in the community, but given the way you state that you demand bugfixes, and that you single-handedly paid for its development, Squad will jump up, get its act together and fix everything before the week is over, schedules and reality be damned! Had you issued this scalding critique three years ago, Squad would by now have rewritten the entire game from scratch in Assembler, bug free and with multiplayer to boot. Aargh! The suffering all those years! The agony! for nothing!

On a more serious note, yes the bugs are unfortunate. It's easy to think that Squad does this on purpose. Or that there is some kind of ulterior motive. Or at least nefarious shenanigans! But keep in mind:

• The game originated as a 2-D-ish "launch a rocket" game
• By someone who was far from a professional developer, let alone of video games
• There was no vision for any long-term development, let alone the need (or expertise) to build a flexible framework to support that
• During it's lifetime the Unity engine went through various upgrades, forcing the game to upgrade with it
• Version numbering is a joke, but it's safe to say that there have been at least 3 major versions – 0.2x, 0.9x and 1.x – and where for practically all software you get charged for a major upgrade, Squad didn't

I mentioned many years ago that I thought the "pay once, never pay for upgrades, ever" model was shortsighted and that somewhere down the line things would fall apart. Ongoing development requires ongoing funding. Conversely, paying $20 for a game many years ago, and after all that time still playing it... that's a good deal. To then state that I paid for this game and by god I feel ripped off by Squad not giving up on fixing bugs after one patch, well, in my book, "that's rich."

Chill. They're not happy with it either. They're working hard to fix it. And yes, scale does matter. This is not Adobe charging $1200 for an initial release and $300 for every upgrade (been there, done that). In return, be a bit more relaxed towards the state of the product.