Alrightythen214

Make these two female Kerbals stock

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Hi all!

Look, it's 2018.

Let's be good feminists and get more female Kerbals into the stock crew! For example, following the cue from Squad about Val being a reference to the first Russian woman in space, I usually start all my games by using the cheat menu to create the following two female Kerbals:

Sally Kerman - Engineer, after Sally Ride the first US woman in space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Ride)
Helen Kerman - Scientist, after Helen Sharman the first UK man or woman in space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Sharman)

Val, Sal, and Hel all rhyme, for that goofy KSP goodness!!! If I can find a way to make "Liu" rhyme too, I would also add this fantastic lady: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yang_(astronaut)

Doing all of this is not just one small step for equality, but it also helps us by giving us a stock "A" crew and "B" crew right out of the gate, rather than having one full crew plus Val as a solo act.

Your thoughts.

Here's an image showing the proposed crew lineup.

Cheers, Andy.

 

Edited by Alrightythen214

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I don't see the point in adding any more kerbonauts right off the bat.

Keep the homage characters if you want, but don't add any more to the stock line up.  

 

And Val, Sal, and Hel do not rhyme, just as Pal, Gal, and Dell don't rhyme. 

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From a gameplay perspective, having duplicate engineers and scientists is  rather pointless.

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Not a bad idea, at the moment it is very much just the classic token female, in a group of all males. 3 of each would be nice.
They really ought to do a few more women kerbals as named characters too, like the ones in the admin building. 

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I don't see how adding two female Kerbs named after real female space explorers is a step towards equality. None of the male Kerbs are named for male space explorers.

But Kerbals are not humans, and for all we know about their biology they might be made of guacamole and breed by spreading themselves over tubs of nachos and cheese. What you are doing is taking something that has nothing to do with sex equality and trying to make it seem like it should be about sex equality. Please don't do that.

Edit:

Actually, it just occured to me that a REAL step towards equality would be to add a female kerbal named Neil. So let's do that :rolleyes:

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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Ahh, this hardy perennial. The last thread on this topic got rather acrimonious and I personally found it rather depressing. Hence, I don't propose to get drawn too deeply into this one but in support of the OP:

I fully support the principle but would tweak it slightly by having a starting roster of Bill, Bob, Jeb and three female kerbonauts with names chosen from the procedural generator. Val becomes a white-suit where she joins the ranks of other white-suit tributes to human space explorers.

Any 'Kerbals aren't Human' argument is, in my view, wrong or at least pointless.

Kerbals come in two visually distinct types and have done for quite some time. Each type has its own set of names. The name set for one type includes such obviously human male names as Bob, Bill, Jeb, James, Neil... you get the idea. And then there's  the visual cues. Square jawed, crew-cut characters vs softer, more rounded faces with prominent eyelashes. 

Actual Kerbal biology is irrelevant (and, as far as I'm aware not addressed in KSP canon anyway). The Kerbals as we see them have clear analogues to 'human male' and 'human female' (which is quite understandable as they're much more relatable to that way) and therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to me that both of those analogues be properly represented in-game.

As always, I do wonder how this oft-repeated topic would have played out if the original three orange-suits had been named (for example) Tracy, Stacy and Karen. 

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I support the idea of female starting crew.

 

But I would prefer a Candidate Roost from where the player pick a Pilot, an Engineer and a Scientist  to form the starting crew. Those are given Orange Suits and Veteran status (whatever it means :P) while the others may eventually appear among the regular applicants in the Astronaut Complex (or The Other Applicant List) . And of course some of those details may be changed in the difficult settings.

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1 hour ago, Spricigo said:

But I would prefer a Candidate Roost from where the player pick a Pilot, an Engineer and a Scientist  to form the starting crew.

I like the idea of letting a player pick a starting group from the roster list.  However, I'd like to be able to pick any three or four, with no class restriction.

I edit my save file to make the starting four all pilots, anyway.

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If we're going to just make homages, then I'd like to have the Mercury 7 Pilots at the start.

We have enough Kerbals as is. With dozens and dozens more to find in the random name generator.

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2 minutes ago, razark said:

I like the idea of letting a player pick a starting group from the roster list.  However, I'd like to be able to pick any three or four, with no class restriction.

Actually, me too. But my suggestion is for one of each kind being the default behavior and the option to change it in the new game setting (or in that screen where you pick the starting crew).

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21 hours ago, Alrightythen214 said:

Hi all!

Look, it's 2018.

Let's be good feminists and get more female Kerbals into the stock crew! For example, following the cue from Squad about Val being a reference to the first Russian woman in space, I usually start all my games by using the cheat menu to create the following two female Kerbals:

To be blunt with all the social graces of a chain saw... No. Let's don't. Again, I do not see why we ever had to have "male" and "female" Kerbals anyway. I actually dislike this thread topic and it seems to come around at least once a year. And the wording of the OP - makes it seem as if you either agree with this topic or you are some sort of sub-human Neanderthal who is anti-feminist and should be immediately escorted off of the forum.

9TRaax7Ac.jpegIn complete honesty, Harvester could have decided to create an alien life form (and that is what Kerbals or Kermen are, alien life forms) and have them to appear like the one to the left. No gender, just a few teeth here and there and four fingered. No clear identity on who this "Podgel" could be but... believe me, we'd have been just as accepting of this asexual representation of a spacefaring race of creatures.

The first three astronauts were Jeb, Bill, and Bob. And in the earlier versions of the game, I don't think they had the defined roles as they do now (at least I don't remember them having roles in .22). They were also not named after any real astronauts. Just random names Harvester used - and Bill and Bob were generic enough they didn't necessarily represent any one astronaut but happened to simply share the same name. Valentina was NAMED after a real astronaut on purpose - the FIRST Kerbal named exclusively in honor of a real astronaut was named after a RUSSIAN FEMALE COSMONAUT. So, if anything, you could claim that feminism has already won a small victory in the game.

I play KSP and I come to the forum to escape the politically correct nightmare of the American university campus. I enjoy flinging crap into orbit to see what will happen next. And in my current version of KSP (which is 1.3.0), I have four different save games going on, some which date to the .90 days.

I do not understand, why in a game which main focus is the exploration of space, why we need to bring race, religion, politics, or gender issues into the middle of it. While I do understand the desires of some to have gender equality, what next? Demand that Squad create various shades of green Kerbals to represent different ethnic groups? Maybe we should add another category to the roster and have pilots, scientists, engineers, tourists, and simpletons. The simpleton Kerbals could have the mindset that Kerbals don't need to be in outer space and simply show up to protest every launch.

Spoiler

Wait... that would be a very bad idea. I know I would take great fun on seeing how many of the simpletons I could kill off in one launch! :D

 

4 hours ago, KSK said:

Ahh, this hardy perennial. The last thread on this topic got rather acrimonious and I personally found it rather depressing. Hence, I don't propose to get drawn too deeply into this one but in support of the OP:

I fully support the principle but would tweak it slightly by having a starting roster of Bill, Bob, Jeb and three female kerbonauts with names chosen from the procedural generator. Val becomes a white-suit where she joins the ranks of other white-suit tributes to human space explorers.

Any 'Kerbals aren't Human' argument is, in my view, wrong or at least pointless.

Kerbals come in two visually distinct types and have done for quite some time. Each type has its own set of names. The name set for one type includes such obviously human male names as Bob, Bill, Jeb, James, Neil... you get the idea. And then there's  the visual cues. Square jawed, crew-cut characters vs softer, more rounded faces with prominent eyelashes. 

Actual Kerbal biology is irrelevant (and, as far as I'm aware not addressed in KSP canon anyway). The Kerbals as we see them have clear analogues to 'human male' and 'human female' (which is quite understandable as they're much more relatable to that way) and therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to me that both of those analogues be properly represented in-game.

As always, I do wonder how this oft-repeated topic would have played out if the original three orange-suits had been named (for example) Tracy, Stacy and Karen. 

I agree totally. It is depressing and a little irritating at the same time. For all we know, the Kerbals may be a tri-gender or quad-gender species who require a healthy diet of nacho cheese snacks and tacos in order to procreate. It's supposed to be a game about space exploration - and not meant to be a game with a political and social statement attached to it.

Edited by adsii1970

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4 hours ago, KSK said:

Any 'Kerbals aren't Human' argument is, in my view, wrong or at least pointless.

Kerbals come in two visually distinct types and have done for quite some time. Each type has its own set of names. The name set for one type includes such obviously human male names as Bob, Bill, Jeb, James, Neil... you get the idea. And then there's  the visual cues. Square jawed, crew-cut characters vs softer, more rounded faces with prominent eyelashes. 

Actual Kerbal biology is irrelevant (and, as far as I'm aware not addressed in KSP canon anyway). The Kerbals as we see them have clear analogues to 'human male' and 'human female' (which is quite understandable as they're much more relatable to that way) and therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to me that both of those analogues be properly represented in-game.

As always, I do wonder how this oft-repeated topic would have played out if the original three orange-suits had been named (for example) Tracy, Stacy and Karen. 

If the original kerbs had been named Tracy, Stacy and Karen I think the same thing would have happened as happened when they were called Bill, Bob and Jebediah, i.e. the vast majority of people assumed the kerbal species was monomorphic or just didn't care.

Kerbals AREN'T human. They are virtual anthropomorphised alien puppets used by us to pretend we are exploring their virtual alien solar system. They don't have a gender, sex, or any social behaviour or reproductive biology outside the player's imagination. The player is free to imagine they are a perfect society or a misogynistic tyranny (or even a misandristic one come to that - perhaps in their imaginary burrows the females enslave the males and force them to the surface to seek future burrow sites and fight off/sacrifice themselves to the kraken).

In any case, KSP makes no statement about morality or ethics, and quite bloody right. I play games like this to expand my imagination and escape for a few quiet hours. The last thing I need is for horrid human pettiness to follow me in there.

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Let's be good feminists

Let's *not* be good feminists. I don't appreciate it when people try to force their "isms" on me in my entertainment. If I want more female kerbonauts, I know how to acquire them.

 

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42 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Let's *not* be good feminists. I don't appreciate it when people try to force their "isms" on me in my entertainment. If I want more female kerbonauts, I know how to acquire them.

 

That's how I see it...

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Short-form argument:

  • KSP is "just" a game, but it's an educational one (with an educational version). Many of us have had our math, science, engineering, and analytical skills strengthened by it.
  • Little girls play this game.
  • Jeb, Bill, and Bob are clearly male. (Race isn't an issue, because they're green).
  • Media representation matters. That's a hard premise to quantify, but I think it's common sense to say that who you see on a screen or in a story affects how you see yourself. We find our heroes and our good examples in stories. I'd much rather have a kid identify with Valentina Kerman than with Barbie. If the inclusion of female kerbonauts helps keep some little girl interested and engaged with everything KSP has to offer, that's a great thing.
  • It's not a zero-sum game--No one loses anything by their inclusion. There is no reason to feel threatened and insecure about it--Certainly not to the degree seen in this thread. (I think part of the problem is that so many things have been politicized that aren't inherently political. Basic fairness and raising strong kids has no politics, and it's not part of some "culture war".) Having female Kerbals is just a way of saying, "Welcome to the fireworks show! Plenty of room for everybody."

To the OP: No, we don't need additional female Kerbals (other than honorary real life ones as they come up), it's been well-handled already.

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On 4/17/2018 at 10:53 AM, Alrightythen214 said:

Look, it's 2018.

Let's be good feminists

No. I'm not any kind of "'ist", and I don't much care what year it is.
 

We have enough starting kerbals as it is (one too many of which are named after real astronauts), any more will disrupt gameplay progression. Any further kerbals generated for hire are of randomised gender.
The original 3 are artefacts of early game development, when there was exactly one kind of kerbal. Nobody needs to "equalise" them to appease some real-world issue, it's a game and these are fictional little green aliens.

If you really want to give your aliens specific human names, there are ways to do that.

 

26 minutes ago, FleshJeb said:

No one loses anything by their inclusion

As kerbals-for-hire, perhaps. As starting crew, you loose an element of gameplay progression - available crew being limited by available funds.
With 6 for free, I'd not need to hire any at all until late in the game, when the cost doesn't matter. Meaningful decision lost. 4 is too many already.

Edited by steve_v

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1 hour ago, FleshJeb said:

Allow me to retort:

Short-form argument:

  • KSP is "just" a game, but it's an educational one (with an educational version). Many of us have had our math, science, engineering, and analytical skills strengthened by it.
  • Little girls play this game.
  • Jeb, Bill, and Bob are clearly male. (Race isn't an issue, because they're green).
  • Media representation matters. That's a hard premise to quantify, but I think it's common sense to say that who you see on a screen or in a story affects how you see yourself. We find our heroes and our good examples in stories. I'd much rather have a kid identify with Valentina Kerman than with Barbie. If the inclusion of female kerbonauts helps keep some little girl interested and engaged with everything KSP has to offer, that's a great thing.
  • It's not a zero-sum game--No one loses anything by their inclusion. There is no reason to feel threatened and insecure about it--Certainly not to the degree seen in this thread. (I think part of the problem is that so many things have been politicized that aren't inherently political. Basic fairness and raising strong kids has no politics, and it's not part of some "culture war".) Having female Kerbals is just a way of saying, "Welcome to the fireworks show! Plenty of room for everybody."

To the OP: No, we don't need additional female Kerbals (other than honorary real life ones as they come up), it's been well-handled already.

I agree with everything you've said apart from that last line. I don't agree that it's been handled well already. Including female kerbonauts was a good step but 3/4 of your starting crew are male and all the characters that you meet that are more than a name and an anonymous face tucked away at the bottom of your screen - are male. That's not good media representation.

Oh - and @The_Rocketeer, in case it wasn't already obvious, I completely disagree. If the Original Three had all had female names, I think an awful lot of people would have cared about the lack of male representation. I expect that the most common argument would have been an analogy to the early (male dominated) real-world space program and that very few people would have given a fig that the Kerbals are 'virtual anthropomorphised alien puppets used by us to pretend we are exploring their virtual alien solar system.' And if matters had proceeded to where we are now, with male and female white-suits but an all-female KSC crew and a token male orange-suit, well sorry to say but I expect that all the pious platitudes about 'it not mattering' and 'please take this issue out of my entertainment' would have gone straight out of the window.

Anyway - I'm done.

Edited by KSK

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nobody has mentioned that there are zero female kerbals working in the VAB or SPH...  where are the lady technicians, labourers, and mechanics? don't they want STEM careers? 

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6 minutes ago, Blasty McBlastblast said:

nobody has mentioned that there are zero female kerbals working in the VAB or SPH...  where are the lady technicians, labourers, and mechanics? don't they want STEM careers? 

While I believe you are 100% accurate here..... this will not end well....

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1 hour ago, KSK said:

if matters had proceeded to where we are now, with male and female white-suits but an all-female KSC crew and a token male orange-suit, well sorry to say but I expect that all the pious platitudes about 'it not mattering' and 'please take this issue out of my entertainment' would have gone straight out of the window.

Eh? speak for yourself, I really don't care if kerbals are male, female, or androgynous. I don't care what they eat, where they crap, or why their planet is so inexplicably small either. They're Kerbals. Like Tribbles, but more green.
None of this mattered in alpha, why does it matter now? There are far more important things to work on than arguing over the supposed gender equality of fictional and largely unexplained green toons.
I guess it's a nice bit of variety that there are now two kinds of kerbal, but they're functionally identical. This is not an RPG and there's no reason to identify with the cannon rocket-fodder, so why do we care?

Perhaps we should just introduce a third type and give them some less human names, then this irrelevant distraction can go away and we can focus on things that matter... like bugs and half-finished game modes.
 

31 minutes ago, Blasty McBlastblast said:

nobody has mentioned that there are zero female kerbals working in the VAB or SPH...  where are the lady technicians, labourers, and mechanics? don't they want STEM careers?

I'd neither noticed nor cared, TBH. They're just random animations to make it look less bare, I don't think I've ever looked at them closely. It'd be nice if the creature in mission control would quit with the annoying noises though.

Edited by steve_v

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Originally in KSP, every human on earth was equally represented by the monomorphic 'male' type Kerbal.
 

Then someone at Squad had an idea to boost sales - add female Kerbals! Even though this was just a gimmick, a cheer went up from sex-equality activists everywhere. No one is yet sure why they thought it was a victory for equality to use superficial stereotypes to discriminate between representation of males and representation of females, but they sure did.

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All I know is, I pretty much only play games where I can play as a girl character. Not on principle or anything like that, just because if I'm stuck playing as a boy I lose interest. Back in 0.90, I looked at KSP and what I saw was a game with only male characters. So I didn't buy it, and I never would have if if I hadn't learned you could use Texture Replacer to (sort of) add female ones.

I was seriously excited when the devs added them properly in 1.0. Especially because the design they came up with was really nice and cute, and not a silly caricature with cartoon makeup. Of all the features they've added since I've been playing, girl kerbals are by far the one that I appreciated the most. And that had nothing to do with feminism or political correctness or gender equality or any of that sort of thing--it had to do with me enjoying the game.

Right now we have 1 named girl kerbal and (I think) 9 named boy ones. While it's hardly as important as having female kerbals in the game in the first place, adding a couple more girls (or changing one or two of the boys) would nonetheless be appreciated--again, not for political correctness, just for making the game more fun for those of us who care about such things.

 

PS. And I'm not saying the ratio has to be exactly fifty-fifty or you're all horrible misogynists. Just that making things a bit more even would be nice and wouldn't hurt anybody.

Edited by Hotaru

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