Agreement for Mars Sample Return

[sevenperforce]

I doubt this is really NEW news, but:

https://gizmodo.com/nasa-and-esa-are-getting-serious-about-bringing-martian-1825568599

Has there been any design into a MAV?

Why not just have the MAV perform the sample collection?

[cubinator]

23 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Why not just have the MAV perform the sample collection?

The Mars 2020 rover can get samples from a variety of verifiably interesting places. This does bring added complexity, though, with the second rover being necessary to pick up the samples. And the deal about the MAV needing to rendezvous and attach to yet another vehicle from Earth seems like a lot could go wrong.

[DAL59]

27 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Why not just have the MAV perform the sample collection?

Lobbying by subcontractors...  why do one mission when you can do four?

1. Mars 2020 rover collects rocks

2. MAV collects the rocks from the rover

3. Ion drive satellite collects sample from Mars orbit

4. Manned(!) mission to earth moon l4 to collect sample from satellite.

Also, a 2 billion dollar quarantine facility for this one sample.  

Note that a mission the size of the curiosity, without ISRU, could deploy a pathfinder sized rover, and have enough mass budget left for a rocket to send said sample all the way back to earth.  

1 minute ago, cubinator said:

The Mars 2020 rover can get samples from a variety of verifiably interesting places. This does bring added complexity, though, with the second rover being necessary to pick up the samples. And the deal about the MAV needing to rendezvous and attach to yet another vehicle from Earth seems like a lot could go wrong.

 

[cubinator]

Furthermore, this mission is designed to take at least three separate Earth-Mars transfers, if I read correctly. We wouldn't see the precious shoebox of sand before 2026. I almost wonder whether SpaceX can land and return a crew and a BFRload of rocks before this happens. 

[sevenperforce]

6 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Furthermore, this mission is designed to take at least three separate Earth-Mars transfers, if I read correctly. We wouldn't see the precious shoebox of sand before 2026. I almost wonder whether SpaceX can land and return a crew and a BFRload of rocks before this happens. 

Don't know how slow ISRU will be, but yeah, probably.

[cubinator]

Just now, sevenperforce said:

Don't know how slow ISRU will be, but yeah, probably.

After all, this sample box is just going to sit there whether the 2020 rover continues its mission or not. They can delay the other parts of the mission all they want, so it could end up taking four or five transfers. By that point, it's increasingly likely that there will be functional BFR flights to and from Mars.

[Wjolcz]

This is soooo complicated. And I'm not an engineer nor am I a scientist, but wouldn't it be easier to simply do more launches and rendezvous them in LEO and then do the transfer burn? One rocket could launch the return stage and the other a rover/blimp/drone/whatever to drill and grab the samples and put them into the rocket.

What KSP taught me about doing complicated stuff like this is that it either never ends well or you spend too much of the resources and the results are lousy or spend all the resources and lose one of the elements of the mission and now the mission is impossible to complete.

Edit: OK, maybe it makes sense to some extent. Assuming they have time to do all this (though I could imagine the tubes getting lost under the sand after some time) it could work. But it's just an expensive and probably a couple years long Rube Goldberg machine. Doing this step by step kind of makes sense, but if one of these steps doesn't get realised then the whole putting soil in tubes, or driving to them and putting in a tiny rocket was just wasted effort and time. Each step has to be completed, otherwise they just sent a bunch of stuff that did things for no purpose while probably doing some other science on the way.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Wjolcz

[KG3]

Just out of curiosity (ha), if we could bring just on gram of material back from mars, out of all the stuff examined by the rovers so far what would we most want to bring back?  Ok, maybe a single gram isn't much to work with but what's the highest priority material for a return to earth?

[StrandedonEarth]

42 minutes ago, KG3 said:

Just out of curiosity (ha), if we could bring just on gram of material back from mars, out of all the stuff examined by the rovers so far what would we most want to bring back?  Ok, maybe a single gram isn't much to work with but what's the highest priority material for a return to earth?

Maybe some "blueberries"?

[LordFerret]

5 hours ago, DAL59 said:

Also, a 2 billion dollar quarantine facility for this one sample.

Why? Don't bring it back to Earth. Do all your science up in space, at the ISS.

[StrandedonEarth]

2 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

Why? Don't bring it back to Earth. Do all your science up in space, at the ISS.

And when they all turn into Martian Zombies, leave them up there!

[YNM]

Why not put the whole stuff on FH expendable in one go ?

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

Why not just launch a fly-by aerobraking probe with ion engines, equipped with a thermonuke?

Arrive to Mars
Launch the self-propelled thermonuke.
Penetrate the atmosphere, gathering ground probes from top of the mushroom cloud.
Leave the atmosphere.
Decouple heatshield and scoops,
Run ion engines,
Return to the Earth.
...
Profit!

***

Spectre can tell much if have a spectroscope in orbit.

Also this can be a seismic research, if drop several seismic probes.

Then land a lander into the crater to research the naked underlying layers.

***

Maybe this should be a standard initial procedure of any celestial body research. One test — so many results at once.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Wjolcz]

8 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

And when they all turn into Martian Zombies, leave them up there!

I get the reference!

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Why not just launch a fly-by aerobraking probe with ion engines, equipped with a thermonuke?

Arrive to Mars
Launch the self-propelled thermonuke.
Penetrate the atmosphere, gathering ground probes from top of the mushroom cloud.
Leave the atmosphere.
Decouple heatshield and scoops,
Run ion engines,
Return to the Earth.
...
Profit!

***

Spectre can tell much if have a spectroscope in orbit.

Also this can be a seismic research, if drop several seismic probes.

Then land a lander into the crater to research the naked underlying layers.

***

Maybe this should be a standard initial procedure of any celestial body research. One test — so many results at once.

 

What the hell

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

2 minutes ago, Wjolcz said:

What the hell

OK, let's omit the spectrometer.

 

[DAL59]

8 hours ago, LordFerret said:

Why? Don't bring it back to Earth. Do all your science up in space, at the ISS.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5442430/

8 hours ago, LordFerret said:

Why? Don't bring it back to Earth. Do all your science up in space, at the ISS.

The whole idea of needed quarantine for Martian life has no scientific basis.  

 

[Canopus]

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

The whole idea of needed quarantine for Martian life has no scientific basis.  

 

According to one very controversial figure, who is an engineer not even a biologist.

[YNM]

14 minutes ago, Canopus said:

According to one very controversial figure, who is an engineer not even a biologist.

Engineers follow the biologist, or whoever the headhoncho is.

IMO the only "planetary protection" would be a sterilized probe and a sterilized, impermeable storage canister.

Speaking of planetary protection for once we lands and colonize there is... bogus.

[Tullius]

2 hours ago, DAL59 said:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5442430/

The whole idea of needed quarantine for Martian life has no scientific basis.  

This is something of category, where you just don't want to find out afterwards that you have been wrong, no matter how low the risk. It is the same with the quarantine measures for Apollo 11, 12 and 14.

If it is really necessary to do the quarantine measures and first tests of the samples in lunar orbit, I don't know, but having some protection in place is necessary. After all, it is better to be safe than sorry.

Just now, YNM said:

Speaking of planetary protection for once we lands and colonize there is... bogus.

Planetary protection is more about protecting our future scientific results than the planet. After all, when did the humanity ever give a f*** about protecting a place when colonising?

Edited April 27, 2018 by Tullius

[Canopus]

6 minutes ago, YNM said:

Speaking of planetary protection for once we lands and colonize there is... bogus.

Thats why just flying to mars and setting up a colony is not going to happen very soon, even if so many pop science writers would like us to believe that. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Canopus

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

Fight the fire with fire.
Make the alien invaders be afraid.

P.S.
What is more probable: 
1) ET/Martian endemic life compatible with Earth conditions and human biochemistry?
2) Mutated under cosmic radiation bacteria (or herpes) in spacemen intestines, spreading along the Earth after the first visit of restroom?

If make a quarantine for Mars, why at all let the spacemen live between other people?

Edited April 27, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

56 minutes ago, Canopus said:

According to one very controversial figure, who is an engineer not even a biologist.

Not to mention from a video on YouTube.

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Canopus said:

Thats why just flying to mars and setting up a colony is not going to happen very soon...

Hmm...

Spoiler

...

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by YNM

[DAL59]

5 hours ago, Tullius said:

It is the same with the quarantine measures for Apollo 11, 12 and 14.

Those did not make sense either.  

 

5 hours ago, LordFerret said:

Not to mention from a video on YouTube.

This is a recording of the Mars Society debate...  

5 hours ago, Tullius said:

Planetary protection is more about protecting our future scientific results than the planet.

I agree completely.  Protecting ourselves from Mars contamination, though, does not make sense, because we are contaminated by mars every few centuries.    

6 hours ago, Canopus said:

According to one very controversial figure, who is an engineer not even a biologist.

That does not refute any of his points though.  

[MaverickSawyer]

Gonna weigh in here with my 0.02...

IF this project does go ahead (and from my experience, that's a mighty big "if"), then they should at least consider the use of ISRU, if not to fuel the sample return booster, then to at least prove the technology. If it does work, they can use it to either reduce the launch and landing mass of a follow up mission, or to allow for a bigger sample on a follow up mission.

 

Personally, I suspect that this will die the same slow, quiet death that most of NASA's overly ambitious missions tend to. Look at what happened to Constellation, and the follow up mission to Jupiter's moons... Either mutated beyond recognition, downscoped to oblivion, or simply outright cancelled when they hit hardware phase.