A whole family in the living room watching TV

[silverfox101]

Its all changed for the worse, each member of the family plugged into their own devices all day long, reading about z list celebs. I know people that haven't even sat down and played a board game as a family.

[StrandedonEarth]

36 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

I know people that haven't even sat down and played a board game as a family.

That's because there are better more interesting things to do, usually not as a family. Ironic that my wife tells me to play a board game with the kids, but she couldn't be bothered. And no, not because she's cooking dinner, but cuz she's checking FaceCrack. The kids would rather be on the XB1 (one version of CoD* or another), and I'd rather be surfing this very forum, or actually playing KSP (or Civ6)...

*I used to play CoD with them, but they always kick my cheeks these days (the co-op missions were better). Just like I destroy them at StarCraft (1 or 2. them vs me) without having to really try, like swatting flies with a semi.

Edited April 28, 2018 by StrandedonEarth

[YNM]

53 minutes ago, silverfox101 said:

I know people that haven't even sat down and played a board game as a family.

Has been around that since Baby Boomers. Just "wörk".

Edited April 28, 2018 by YNM

[silverfox101]

Must be just my family that enjoy board games....oh well

[YNM]

@silverfox101 Not really, we did chess and ludo and this. Tried Monopoly once but I don't get it. Not sure for our western compatriots.

[XB-70A]

The question is all but simple to treat and answer. Being from what (some of us) are calling the Doomed Generation (from the the last 80's-early 90's), I must admit that I saw these changes in some of the Western countries' subjects.

Like a large part of the world's population, I cannot put forward any hypothesis that could concern the human species itself. Simply because I can not know what people think, and also because each society has its own culture and its way to evolve. However, I must admit that in the few places where I was able to live, I found a form of communication between subjects somewhat "different" (I don't have any other word passing through my minds...) from those I knew as a child. Such as a "transfer" of interest to communicate "indirectly" with others, rather than directly. To be clearer, it seems to me that in the case of certain Western populations (once again, I can only rely on those that I have met), it seems to me that if long-distance relations have become simpler they have never been, this has also led to the degradation of some of the closest relationships.

Strangely, two or three years ago I ask the question to the (few) friends I had if they remembered the stronger form of direct relationships we had as children, when we communicated more frequently with each other in schools, and especially that everything was organized in advance rather than in real time. Their answers were obviously positive.

Now, I must say that if I discovered the social media/networks very early (the time of imbeciles putting a reggae "lol" every three words on Messenger), I simply hate them now, have not published anything on my Facebook account for 6 or 7 years, and just refuse to follow the activity of those around me in an "indirect" way... but I admit (almost) without shame that I sometimes re-play 1st & 2nd Gen' Pokémon games on a ROM platform...

[LordFerret]

5 hours ago, YNM said:

And news are fed from

No question, true journalism is dead.

[NSEP]

You know, people aren't just looking at stupid celebrities on their phones you know? Its a common stereotype but it's generally not true. I know this one person who has this weird obsession with a YouTuber called Jacksepticeye, but they didn't have fangirls like her in the 60s right? *cough* Beetles *cough*

Most video games that are based from reality trigger the 'curiosity' button in our brain, wich triggers us to joyfully research the subject of the game. People who play War Thunder usually dig a bit deeper into the tanks, battleships, and planes of the game. And to be frank, i wouldn't have known a single bit about spaceflight if it wasn't for KSP. What im saying is that video games don't always make people dumb, and sometimes make people smart.

[LordFerret]

5 minutes ago, NSEP said:

What im saying is that video games don't always make people dumb, and sometimes make people smart.

I'll agree with that. I've always believed that the computer is one of the most amazing inventions as far as tools goes (same with the internet, as an extension of). However, just like any other tool, put in the wrong hands and/or used improperly does more damage than good.

[Guest]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:20 PM, NSEP said:

Im sorry, but i sort of despise this good old days were better and now everything is worse because of modern technology talk. Its not going to be worse, its just not going to be the same way as you are used to.

Couldn't agree more.

[YNM]

2 hours ago, LordFerret said:

put in the wrong hands

Yes, every child is wrong, right ?

2 hours ago, NSEP said:

You know, people aren't just looking at stupid celebrities on their phones you know?

This forum or BBC. And wörk.

Edited April 29, 2018 by YNM

[kerbiloid]

Computer is not a tool, and furthermore internet isn't.
They are next stage of life evolution, the purpose of biological species, the higher form of matter self-organizing..

Like separated neurons (persons) get assembled into a neural network, where computers are synapses.

Like unicellular fungi get assembled into mycelium

Like scattered hunters-gatherers built a permanent settlement.

***

Don't also forget that archaic societies and their forms now called traditional, were evolved in/for rather different conditions:

• average lifespan ~40 years
• female fertility ~30 years
• first (and mostly last) time married ~15 years
• 8 children born, 6 died
• iirc, 1 of 4 childbirth is lethal for a woman (sepsis, bleeding)
• iirc, 1 of 4 surgery is not lethal for a patient (pain shock, sepsis)
• full sum of knowledge can be studied in several years for a hunter/peasant, in twice of that - for a "Ph.D."

So, if take an adult life former duration ~(40-15) ~= 25 years,  then (75-15) = 60 is twice as long.
Nowadays people live 2 lifes of their ancestors in XIX and before.
And let's multiply this by, say, 2, because of faster changes and information speed.

Let's count: if a person was born in 1940s, he/she already has faced: 1940-1950s, 1960s, late 1960s-1970s, late 1970s-1980s, 1990s-early 2000s, 2000s-present days.
I.e. 6 epochs with different ideas and styles.

While a person of early XIX and before would know just "good old" and "new, fashionable".

So, the problem is in attempt to live three lives now like one life before.
But the human personality and society model was designed and optimized for that single life.

***

Of course, symbiosis of stochastic biological life and intentionally designed global computer network, as well as unavoidable crysis of overproduction due to total automation of everything and everywhere, will rebuild the human society from sewers to attic. 
Last time such changes happened 10 000 years ago.

New epochs - new identities.

Edited April 29, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Computer is not a tool, and furthermore internet isn't.

It indeed is a tool, designed as such... and the internet is merely an extension of its data storage capabilities.

With the advent of the PC, the computer's role as an educational tool was realized. Note the dates of the articles. Believe what you wish, reality and history speak different.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1307163/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2FBF03203770

There are so many more, but these two will suffice.

[kerbiloid]

They were originally purposed and designed as tools.
Nobody in neolithic settlements 10000 years ago was going to make what we have now. They were just trying to put a pot into fire.

16 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

PC

PC was just a temporary solution at the moment when CPU abilities were growing faster than communication lines bandwidth.

If in 1980s there were optical lines, this (of course, charming and pleasant) PC heresy would never appear.
Customers would be just renting framework machine time for home workstations. Exactly like currently they do with VPS _{Virtual Private Server}  , cloud services, dropbox, google drive, google docs, Office 365, countless.

(I like PC, don't get this wrong.)

Computers appeared as multiuser mainframes, internet is just a name for network with remote workstations.

Edited April 29, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

If in 1980s there were optical lines,

I hate to tell you this, but optical data lines were developed back in the very early 1970's (late 1960's actually). Bell Telephone (which became Verizon) out in Madison NJ (Bell Labs) had an extensive early network... and they also had a 'talking' computer (early speech synthesis), first put to use internally. Fiber optics were installed into the NYC phone system in the early 1970's. An extensive nation-wide backbone followed (I don't have the date handy). Mind you: This was all BEFORE there was a PC.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, LordFerret said:

I hate to tell you this, but optical data lines were developed back in the very early 1970's (late 1960's actually).

"Developed" and "economically appropriate and widely used" are little different.

Do you remember when dial-up modems were a common thing? When (A,x,...)DSL became a theme? When optical lines indeed became available for mass user?

When 5.25" were replaced with 3.5"? When CD were replaced with DVD? Where are all of them now, when civil network bandwidth indeed reached significant values?

When cell phones bandwidth allowed to watch internet right on the phone?

When wi-fi became fast?

If there were optical fibers to every house like now, rather than dial-ups and 5.25" (and sometimes 8") diskettes, nobody would be bothering with a separated local single-user micromainframe parody called PC.
There would be data centers, leasing their mainframe resources to everybody who has money. So, you would be typing not on "computer", but on "terminal".

Edited April 30, 2018 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

3 hours ago, LordFerret said:

but optical data lines were developed back in the very early 1970's (late 1960's actually). 

The first time I had Facebook 10 years ago, I accessed it through dial-up modems.

Yes, welcome to the third world.

Edited April 30, 2018 by YNM

[steve_v]

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Do you remember when dial-up modems were a common thing? When (A,x,...)DSL became a theme?

Yup.
 

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

When optical lines indeed became available for mass user?

Fibre to my house? Last month. Haven't got it connected yet.
 

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

When wi-fi became fast?

Still runnin' 54Mbps here.
 

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

When 5.25" were replaced with 3.5"? When CD were replaced with DVD? Where are all of them now

Uhh, NAND flash & 6TB external HDDs?

 

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

nobody would be bothering with a separated local single-user micromainframe parody called PC

Unless they needed to do something low-latency, which a great many workloads do.
Or need to do some computing in a remote location, where no communication is available.
Or have to pass safety regs, especially for moving people around.

Edited April 30, 2018 by steve_v

[kerbiloid]

27 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Unless they needed to do something low-latency, which a great many workloads do.

And unlikely this is a personal computer (which is for mail, docs, photos, games, home accountant).
And this is definitely not about PC XT/AT or ZX Spectrum epoch.

Also low-latency with many workloads usually even use real-time systems (like QNX, etc), not Windows, MacOS or Ubuntu or other personal OS.
And usually they are still connected to the central server (say, of railroad administration).

27 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Or need to do some computing in a remote location, where no communication is available.

In 1980s?
I'm afraid, not every big programming calculator for engineers or geologists can be named PC, and not many farmers were using PC in their work.
Calculators - yes, of course. With 20 digits on a screen.

27 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Or have to pass safety regs, especially for moving people around.

PC is antonym for safety.
If there were no PC, any authorization would be passing through remote data center, and everyone's movements would be permanently traced.

P.S.
Computer games would be much slower and more primitive, of course.
Also the remote video editing would be enough expensive hobby for guys with good bandwidth.

Edited April 30, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

13 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

"Developed" and "economically appropriate and widely used" are little different.

Do you remember when dial-up modems were a common thing? When (A,x,...)DSL became a theme? When optical lines indeed became available for mass user?

When 5.25" were replaced with 3.5"? When CD were replaced with DVD? Where are all of them now, when civil network bandwidth indeed reached significant values?

When cell phones bandwidth allowed to watch internet right on the phone?

When wi-fi became fast?

If there were optical fibers to every house like now, rather than dial-ups and 5.25" (and sometimes 8") diskettes, nobody would be bothering with a separated local single-user micromainframe parody called PC.
There would be data centers, leasing their mainframe resources to everybody who has money. So, you would be typing not on "computer", but on "terminal".

And despite all of this crap you're pointing out, to date (from, say, mid-1990's or about 2000 on) you've accomplished far far less than what was done in the 60's and 70's... despite all of those advances.

(And by 'you', I don't mean you personally)

[LordFerret]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

And unlikely ...

You would be very surprised to find the early uses PCs were put to when they first came out, in industry (manufacturing, process control, etc)... something I was involved with. Small business on the accounting side of things... something I avoided like the plague. Gaming... a thing I did for entertainment, never even thinking once of wasting time to develop a game. Education... over 12 years working in the pharmaceutical industry, starting in 84 right after the blossom of the PC, lab research systems and product literacy training systems, all done on early laptops (if you could call Compaq's first 30lb portable a laptop).

And we did all of this stuff with 640k memory, and 5-1/4" floppy discs, and 1200baud modems (then 14.4's) which were lightening fast compared to 300baud.

If we had what you have now ..........

 

 

 

And I'll have to throw this in...

The only thing this great network speed has brought us, is advertising. I don't have a link to quote, but last I'd heard, over 80% of the bandwidth used on the net is eaten by graphics-based advertising.

Edited April 30, 2018 by LordFerret

[NSEP]

On 4/29/2018 at 2:25 AM, LordFerret said:

However, just like any other tool, put in the wrong hands and/or used improperly does more damage than good.

What are you talking about? Are you talking about people using it for criminal activites? Pretty much every invention and communication method can be used for crime, heck, some inventions ARE a crime. Or are you talking about families not talking to eachother anymore? Just because people stare at their phone and don't play board games together, doesn't mean they aren't being families anymore. People still eat dinner, walk in the forest, go on vacation, and do other activities together. Family fun isn't over and isn't going to be over soon, neither is watching an important events on the big screen dead.

Back in the early 1900s, we had the same situation as we have right now, expect for magazines. Before that, people were bragging about kids reading romances, and i can go on and on. It isn't special for people to brag about the things kids are doing these days. But you have to accept that culture and time changes over time. The 'best' time to live doesn't exist, it depends on the person, kind of like the best place to live depends on the person.

Another thing: I do believe kids are growing a weaker connection between their family. Does that mean that kids these days are being anti-social? No, why? Because kids are becoming more connected to their friends, and i don't think talking to friends more instead of family isn't a bad thing at all, in my opinion.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, LordFerret said:

If we had what you have now ...

Yes, if we had what they have now...

I remember those 80s, first XT (3000 USD, iirc), self-made Spectrums, clones of IBM (ES-1022, ES-1045) and PDP-11 (SM-4), and their lesser companions (programming calculators like this one

Spoiler

— yes, it's a calculator, though in size of a half of table).

Magnetic types (happily, I was not had to repair them), punch cards (oh, my first programs in Fortran IV and PL/I), hard disks (29 and 100 MB) to be installed into a washing machine _{which is the drive} and sometimes extracted with help of screwdrivers; manual input of system loading sequence in JPL (those DD-operators), so on.

My first machines were mainframes in 1980s, PC were looking like exotic, especially that Mac II and its clone, Agat.

So, I'm immune to PC magic, though of course I'm happy that they exist in my life.

Edited April 30, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

4 hours ago, NSEP said:

What are you talking about? Are you talking about people using it for criminal activites? Pretty much every invention and communication method can be used for crime, heck, some inventions ARE a crime. Or are you talking about families not talking to eachother anymore? Just because people stare at their phone and don't play board games together, doesn't mean they aren't being families anymore. People still eat dinner, walk in the forest, go on vacation, and do other activities together. Family fun isn't over and isn't going to be over soon, neither is watching an important events on the big screen dead.

Back in the early 1900s, we had the same situation as we have right now, expect for magazines. Before that, people were bragging about kids reading romances, and i can go on and on. It isn't special for people to brag about the things kids are doing these days. But you have to accept that culture and time changes over time. The 'best' time to live doesn't exist, it depends on the person, kind of like the best place to live depends on the person.

Another thing: I do believe kids are growing a weaker connection between their family. Does that mean that kids these days are being anti-social? No, why? Because kids are becoming more connected to their friends, and i don't think talking to friends more instead of family isn't a bad thing at all, in my opinion.

Yes. The topic of this thread.

Kids are not more social these days, and the research shows it. If anything, thanks largely in part to cellphones and the web, kids have become more detached, both from the family unit and socially in general. More and more it is being found that, when put together face to face, they're lacking the necessary social skills to communicate effectively, both out in public and within the home (family unit). Much research has been done on this, and much has been published on the matter as well... Google Scholar is your friend here.

Here's a fact for you to ponder. While not the 'first' cellphone, the iPhone was released in 2007. A study conducted and reported in 2017 on national average SAT scores (data gathered from 1970 through 2016), showed a sharp decline in SAT scores nationally beginning in 2006. And, to date, it is not getting any better. If anything, the study is showing the combined overall effect of family-values dissolution, and the failure of things like multiculturalism, forced ethnic diversity, and lastly socioeconomic differences, to be rooted in poorly implemented technologies. It appears that today, every negative issue educators are facing is centered about things 'social', the cellphone and internet. Now we're trying to computerize teaching, and not having had control of this technology to start with, the outcome is specious.

Times change, what is right does not. What we have today is nothing the likes of what family life was like in the 1900's let alone the 1950's; All one has to do is study a little history on the era, and you will see that family life was very different. The mindsets in the family structure were different (gender roles), as were social and educational and work ethics. These things however, were the very 'stuff' of what made us excel... but today, people refuse to see that. Talking to and being closer to 'friends' will never be better than family, being centered on friends does provide any experienced role models. Yes, there's nothing like 'free range' children, self-raised, who grow up without morality, character, or values ... we see them hanging out with nothing better to do all over the place.

I would ask you, from whom have you learned more about life, and how to live, your friends or your family?

Edited April 30, 2018 by LordFerret
Because I can't spell or type or both. :/

[HazelPine]

6 hours ago, LordFerret said:

-snip-

I would ask you, from whom have you learned more about life, and how to live, your friends or your family?

Surprisingly, my friends. Sure, things like morality and manners mostly came from my family, but most things I ever learned about the world and how to live in it came from friends.

Basically, every generation that comes along has its own general idea of how things "should be", based on how the world was (or is) during the time they are alive. When things change drastically, like in recent decades, the people that are born in the new times are going to be different. The best you can do is teach them what you know to the newer generations and what is right from wrong, really.