Box of Stardust

Air Superiority Competition Unlimited Re-Continued - Now in KSP 1.4 and BDA 1.2!

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9 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

The other ones, I mean.

Sorry...

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WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED TO THIS THREAD?!?!

Edited by Vanamonde
Don't get carried away with font sizes, please.

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16 hours ago, dundun93 said:

WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED TO THIS THREAD?!?!

All good things end eventually (cough cough, Naval Battles included)

Especially threads where the OP has to bear the brunt of the work...

Not to say that the thread is dead, but it's to be expected that things would have slowed down eventually :|

Edited by Vanamonde

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16 hours ago, Earthlinger said:

All good things end eventually (cough cough, Naval Battles included)

Especially threads where the OP has to bear the brunt of the work...

Not to say that the thread is dead, but it's to be expected that things would have slowed down eventually :|

lol

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16 hours ago, Earthlinger said:

All good things end eventually (cough cough, Naval Battles included)

Especially threads where the OP has to bear the brunt of the work...

Not to say that the thread is dead, but it's to be expected that things would have slowed down eventually :|

yes am busy and little burnt out, gimme a bit more time

 

and part of my BDA time has gone into competition planes for PFC

 

also I was busy helping out the Kerbal Express Airlines thread, which was also time consuming

 

and also just playing other games

 

Plus I just received word of a fix for the incredibly annoying 'missile launch self-detonation' problem, which has been a really annoying thing in BDA 1.2, along with more AI Pilot quirks that I'm learning (trying to make the best 'manned' aircraft for the 'manned' category).

I did a quick fix to the PEGASys-D6 to alleviate the whole 'occasionally detonates missiles on itself', so there's that. I know technically we're not supposed to modify aircraft once they've battled, but I think minor things like tweaking values to fix general problems in gameplay should be allowed, since it's not a change directed at beating any specific enemy.

Edited by Box of Stardust

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Okay, I've finished my second plane update after all this time (because wow was there a lot to learn about BDA 1.2), so I guess I'll start up the battles again.

The Sidewinder spam is real.

OuSiLSP.png

 

On 7/30/2018 at 6:27 PM, dundun92 said:

 

What's the difference between 30 and 50?

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Okay, battles have happened. Leaderboard and aircraft stats sheet has been updated. Videos later.

Here's my main points after the session, with minimal spoilers:

Every plane with Ven's Stock Revamp was skipped over.

Du-4A was a surprise.

X-Fighter Hunter earns a rematch.

Armor Bud is relegated to exhibition matches only because the armor plates are too cheesy because they still add inconsequential weight, and can be modified without gaining weight, and I'm pretty sure it's otherwise impossible to kill a plane plated with those.

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Okay, we have battles. And again, the leaderboard and stats sheet (linked in the first post) has been updated, if you want to know the current state of things and see how I measured each plane against each other. Very useful if you want to test against leaderboard planes and get a baseline for where any new planes you design might stand.

 

Spoiler

First up, @53miner53's conventional manned fighter, the Fighter 3 Mk4, goes up against the fairly basic aggressor drone from @ZLM-Master, the Lure Target:

Battle:

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

FaH7ife.png

Analysis:
The Fighter 3 Mk4 is, as said, a fairly typical manned fighter. It's pretty flawed though.

It might be a decently maneuverable plane, but the AI is just not cooperating and can't maximize the capabilities of the plane. As for armament, it should be sufficient, but it just wasn't able to use it that well. The RBS Cruise Missile for routing was an interesting choice though; we've known its potential as one long ago when the Vampire Squirrel came out.

Also, the F3-4 also doesn't really take hits very well.

The Lure Target is showing itself to be a well-performing plane, despite the platform itself not being maximized performance. But it's proving that a lot of a plane's competitiveness is more than building the airframe itself, but also the weapons it has and how it uses both the plane and the weapons as a system.

The Fighter 3 Mk4 is pretty quickly wiped in two battles, placing where it entered.

 

 

Spoiler

Next, @dundun92's IV-7F goes up against @53miner53's Fighter 3 Mk4:

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

IzUHA5A.png

Analysis:
The IV-7F is pretty basic, has the right elements put together; good gun armament with good range settings, a decent amount of missiles, and a routing device. But I was surprised at its relatively poor maneuverability. That's pretty much what's holding it back. Its maximum pitch rate is pretty low.

There's some minor self-detonation problems with the missiles if I'm remembering correctly, so I modified some of the IV-7F's settings to fix those; nothing that affects the performance of any parts, just small fixes because BDA is a little nutty.

It's also a little low in the thrust department. The Fighter 3 Mk4 outruns it a lot.

Still, the drone otherwise works together as a whole, which is enough to give it a solid win against the Fighter 3 Mk4, and it moves up.

 

 

Spoiler

@dundun92's IV-7F advances to fight the bigger yet still dangerous Lure Target from @ZLM-Master:

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Tsxt1Gk.png

Analysis:
So this is a fight that actually surprisingly tests the IV-7F. That Lure Target really is something, isn't it?

If you go ahead and look at the stats sheet, you'll notice that I've rated these two fighters pretty closely, but the Lure Target edges it out in a few key categories: it's a little more maneuverable, its acceleration is a little better, and it's got 8 missiles to throw at targets. And the plane just flies a lot better.

So despite being bigger, the Lure Target is able to stay on the offensive more, and it's able to perform guns defense better when under the gunsights of the IV-7F, and shake the IV-7F off a few times.

On the IV-7F's side for advantages, it's a little smaller and it takes hits better. It tends to lose its control surfaces a lot though, but that doesn't seem to bother the IV-7F too significantly until it loses a majority of them. Still, those aren't enough to outweigh even the slim advantages the Lure Target has in all of the other categories.

Also, that one Lure Target just wouldn't give up in its death spin and continue to throw its remaining Sidewinders... and actually get the hits. Now that's determination.

The Lure Target continues to prove itself to be a solid mid-level opponent, and stops the IV-7F's run here.

 

 

Edited by Box of Stardust

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Drone leaderboard and roster comparison:

ldjz2Mo.png

69w94WD.png

Going from left to right:

Corner: Armor Bud (which has too many hitpoints for like no weight disadvantage to be fair, so it's disqualified for the normal leaderboard)

1st row: P-5a Flash, X-Fighter Hunter, PEGASys-D6, Du-4A, Lure Target

2nd row: Alice Doll, IV-7F, Lumia Doll, mini drone (not very aptly named)

3rd row: D-1 Gen 1, Support Light Guard, Mini Shark III, HSC

4th row: Basilisk-C4, Du-7, Chinese Knockoff PEGASys Du-2A Block 30

 

The stats sheet has also been updated for size ratings for all these planes.

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@Box of Stardustreplace the block 30 with the 35:

https://kerbalx.com/dundun92/Du-2A-Blk-35

and the 50 with the 55

https://kerbalx.com/dundun92/Du-2A-Blk-55

the -55 is a biplane, -35 is a monoplane. -55 has better durability, but less performance.

7 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Chinese Knockoff PEGASys

XD

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7 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Drone leaderboard and roster comparison:

ldjz2Mo.png

69w94WD.png

Going from left to right:

Corner: Armor Bud (which has too many hitpoints for like no weight disadvantage to be fair, so it's disqualified for the normal leaderboard)

1st row: P-5a Flash, X-Fighter Hunter, PEGASys-D6, Du-4A, Lure Target

2nd row: Alice Doll, IV-7F, Lumia Doll, mini drone (not very aptly named)

3rd row: D-1 Gen 1, Support Light Guard, Mini Shark III, HSC

4th row: Basilisk-C4, Du-7, Chinese Knockoff PEGASys Du-2A Block 30

 

The stats sheet has also been updated for size ratings for all these planes.

@Box of Stardust, did you not listen? You don't have the updated version of the HSC!

I will quote my own post:

On 7/28/2018 at 5:37 PM, dundun93 said:

@Box of Stardust,the HSC has been updated. Download it again 

You seemed to ignore the post completely.

Edited by dundun93

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1 minute ago, dundun93 said:

@Box of Stardust, did you not listen? You don't have the updated version of the HSC!

I will quote my own post:

 

I thought I did re-download the HSC when you said to. Maybe not.

I re-download before sending planes to fight anyways.

2 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

@Box of Stardustreplace the block 30 with the 35:

https://kerbalx.com/dundun92/Du-2A-Blk-35

and the 50 with the 55

https://kerbalx.com/dundun92/Du-2A-Blk-55

the -55 is a biplane, -35 is a monoplane. -55 has better durability, but less performance.

XD

Technically speaking, the PEGASys is a biplane itself, and Basilisk is kind of a triplane...

Really though, I just say my stuff either has double or triple redundant control systems, lol.

The Du-4A battles are going up later by the way.

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1 minute ago, Box of Stardust said:

I thought I did re-download the HSC when you said to. Maybe not.

I re-download before sending planes to fight anyways.

Technically speaking, the PEGASys is a biplane itself, and Basilisk is kind of a triplane...

Really though, I just say my stuff either has double or triple redundant control systems, lol.

The Du-4A battles are going up later by the way.

im surprised the Du-4 did so... well. it is soo flimsy.

Edited by dundun92

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42 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

im surprised the Du-4 did so... well. it is soo flimsy.

Well, the competition isn't too stiff at this point. Plus being flimsy only matters once it starts getting hit. It's really maneuverable, so it generally avoided damage in the first place.

Like the Lure Target, it has the fundamentals down that make it effective despite having some flaws that can be beaten with a more heavily-designed plane. 

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@dundun93's ASW-MI(D) vs @dundun92's IV-7F:

Battle:

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

SPevuyu.png

Analysis:
The ASW-MI(D) is... well, it's slow and doesn't control itself particularly well because all of the control surfaces are mixed. Amusingly, it still does manage to get a gun kill in, and launch AMRAAMs when that's what it had left. It's at least more maneuverable than the IV-7F, proving it capable of dogfighting to some extent. It also has good weight of fire from 4 guns, probably its best feature.

The ASW-MI(D) is being sent down to the Tier 2 board to go up against the Fighter 3 Mk4. Check the stats sheet and place your bets!

 

@dundun92's Du-4A vs the board.

Spoiler

vs IV-7F.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

aCpBNIH.png

Analysis:
Well, the Du-4A comes out swinging! I was really surprised at how effective this little thing was. Superb maneuverability, allowing it to put its small armament to good use. Its only shortcoming in offensive capabilities is really just that low amount of weaponry.

The IV-7F just couldn't keep up. The Du-4A dodged everything that came at it and accurately gunned down the IV-7Fs in return.

The performance downside I identified of the Du-4A in this battle was mediocore thrust, but it was otherwise able to compensate for that in combat.

Du-4A advances up the board.

 

 

Spoiler

vs @ZLM-Master's Lure Target.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

LDN6CD0.png

Analysis:
Well, a mishap with missiles causes a Lure Target to kill itself in the first match, but it probably wouldn't have a made a difference anyways.

The Du-4A's better maneuverability wins it this battle, and the Lure Target's poor damage mitigation due to size and reliance on those big delta wings are victim to the Du-4A's accurate gunfire.

 

 

Spoiler

vs @53miner53's P-5a Flash.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

UgVV1AM.png

Analysis:
If there's a plane the Du-4A is most similar to, it's the P-5a Flash. Both are fairly lightweight single-engine (well, the P-5a isn't anymore, but it still kind of is) fighters with light armament, but with accurate gunfire.

If we look at the stats sheet, they're pretty similar in most regards for airframe performance, with the Du-4A having a minor advantages in most of those categories. It loses out in size to the extremely small P-5a, but wins in offensive capabilities and a little bit better damage mitigation rating.

So here we saw the Du-4A's biggest downfall in its weaponry: somewhat low ammo. Now, a box per gun is actually pretty decent, other aircraft considered, but when you're not putting down a lot of rounds down range at one moment, you tend to burn through more ammo trying to down targets.

The small size of the P-5a keeps it alive in a lot of cases, enough to expend the Du-4A's 20mm ammo reserves. But if it gets hit, it's almost always going to feel it. A routing device mishap also gets it, severely affecting the stability of the P-5a and losing its two Sidewinders.

In the end, the Du-4A compromises less than the P-5a in being a lightweight combat drone. It's not the smallest, but it's still one of the lightest, and it has great maneuverability with a respectable armament.

Du-4A advances to face the first of ASC BDA 1.2's true top tier aircraft, the X-Fighter Hunter.

 

 

Spoiler

vs @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter Hunter.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

4hob9lv.png

Analysis:
I screwed up the last match, so the Du-4As had an extra plane instead of the 2 it had left in reserve. And it only got to that last match because the Du-4A in the first match successfully ran away and the X-Fighters ran out of ammo. Not that the extra plane made a difference anyways.

So let's look at the ratings here. The Du-4A matches the X-Fighter in airframe performance for the most part, with only a minor disadvantage in propulsion. Size goes to the X-Fighter fairly conclusively, but the important advantages in this battle were offesnive capabilities and damage mitigation.

The X-Fighter is a lot of weaponry for a small platform. It is not a lightweight drone. It is a densely packed medium-weight drone with 8 Sidewinders and 3 Vulcans, along with its routing device. It has decent thrust behind all of this. And its design just manages to eat damage. Now, while it can eat damage well, it's not necessarily able to continue going on the offensive effectively depending how maneuverable the opponent is, but it isn't a dead plane either. It's still going to be grabbing the attention of other enemies.

The Du-4A can't really take hits, and the X-Fighter has a lot of hitting it can dish out. And it can't dish out enough damage to take down the X-Fighter for good; in fact, it never downs a single one, and the only X-Fighter losses were them crashing into the sea.

The Du-4A has shown top-tier performance up to this point though, and earns it the #3 spot.

The X-Fighter has defended its position twice (though the first of those wasn't really much of a fair challenge), which is enough to earn it the 5v5 rematch against the PEGASys-D6.

 

 

Edited by Box of Stardust

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