kerbiloid Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 If there is a bird milk, there also should be cow feathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chel Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Are our choices and the events in our lives predetermined? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, The_Cat_In_Space said: Are our choices and the events in our lives predetermined? Nope. Only the events due the consequences of the choices we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chel Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 57 minutes ago, Lisias said: Nope. Only the events due the consequences of the choices we do. hmm.. were you destined to reply to this? was I destined to now quote you and submit this response? O_o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lisias said: Nope. Only the events due the consequences of the choices we do. Maybe choices can be the consequences of events too @_@! Every choice we make is a consequence of us being born for example Maybe a choice is just a reaction that we are intimately aware of as it happens due to our sentience. If a fire was sentient would it consider burning a choice? When a fire goes out it’s a reaction to conditions which adversely effect it, but couldn’t the same be said for suicide? Or grabbing lunch for that matter? >:3 Edited August 7, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, The_Cat_In_Space said: were you destined to reply to this? was I destined to now quote you and submit this response? If we were, how would we know it? Being predestined means we have no choice, but by knowing the predestination in advance we would have the choice to avoid it. So your questions would be unanswerable by definition. by logical inference, if you expect an answer, the only possible would be "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 23 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said: Maybe choices can be the consequences of events too @_@! Every choice we make is a consequence of us being born for example And you being born is consequence of your parents had choosen to engage in non-forum-compliant activities when your mother were fertile. Even if they didn't knew your mom were fertile at that night. Of course, not all events are consequences of a choice - that meteor that extinguished the dinosaurs are a perfect example of that. But that didn't means that the dinosaurs were destined to be extinct by a meteor. We are predestined to die. But this doesn't means that we were predestined to born! 23 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said: Maybe a choice is just a reaction that we are intimately aware of as it happens due to our sentience. If a fire was sentient would it consider burning a choice? When a fire goes out it’s a reaction to conditions which adversely effect it, but couldn’t the same be said for suicide? Or grabbing lunch for that matter? You need to breath to be alive. Have you a choice to stop breathing? You need to eat to be alive. Have you a choice about what to eat? you don't have choices about everything. But this doesn't means that you never have a choice at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsii1970 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Hey, folks, just your friendly moderator stopping by. Just a friendly reminder to choose examples a bit less graphic. We do have some young forum members (and some older ones) who may become a bit uncomfortable with examples which include murder and other forms of not-so-random violence. Let's all do our part to keep the forum friendly and inviting for all our members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p1t1o Posted August 9, 2019 Author Share Posted August 9, 2019 On 8/7/2019 at 3:32 PM, adsii1970 said: Hey, folks, just your friendly moderator stopping by. Just a friendly reminder to choose examples a bit less graphic. We do have some young forum members (and some older ones) who may become a bit uncomfortable with examples which include murder and other forms of not-so-random violence. Let's all do our part to keep the forum friendly and inviting for all our members. @Ivanpedersen Er...it was a response to question about extreme decisions, many involving Spoiler genocide so it was in-context. The question revolved around "impossible" choices. Try and come up with an impossible choice that isnt unsavoury. It was also a very long time ago and obviously there is no trend of this kind of thing But yes, generally good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) It's predetermined chaotically. I.e. whatever you do, it's going on its own. Edited August 9, 2019 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 6 hours ago, kerbiloid said: It's predetermined chaotically. i.e.: it's predetermined to be undetermined! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 6 hours ago, Lisias said: i.e.: it's predetermined to be undetermined! Like agree to disagree. It's predetrmined to go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 I like to think it's preundetermined. As in, it's already been determined before a thing happens that it's not been determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said: I like to think it's preundetermined "Is" is a predetermination itself, lol. "Preundetermined" = "maybe could be" Edited August 10, 2019 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 20 hours ago, kerbiloid said: "Preundetermined" = "maybe could be. Or not.” FTFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleivan Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 On 8/7/2019 at 5:12 AM, Lisias said: If we were, how would we know it? Being predestined means we have no choice, but by knowing the predestination in advance we would have the choice to avoid it. So your questions would be unanswerable by definition. by logical inference, if you expect an answer, the only possible would be "no". How would you know what the "predestined choice" is? The one you "choose" could be the predestined one and your attempt at determination at that point could be predestined anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 8 hours ago, purpleivan said: How would you know what the "predestined choice" is? The one you "choose" could be the predestined one and your attempt at determination at that point could be predestined anyway. That's the point. It's impossible to know. So if you ask about it, the only logical answer is "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 A Schroedinger cat makes two predestined choices at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delay Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, kerbiloid said: A Schroedinger cat makes two predestined choices at once. How is it predestined if the result is only determinable at the moment of observation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Delay said: How is it predestined if the result is only determinable at the moment of observation? Yes, it's probabilistically predestined. Like you are worrying and celebrating at once, in case of any case. Celebrating the possible win while being worried because if you lose you won't have a chance. Worrying about the loss while celebrating because what if your celebration is untimely. Like they do. Spoiler Edited August 11, 2019 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delay Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 If I understood quantum mechanics correctly, there is no way to know the outcome beforehand. Isn't that why we're talking about probabilities in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Delay said: If I understood quantum mechanics correctly, there is no way to know the outcome beforehand. Isn't that why we're talking about probabilities in the first place? Yes. The full set of probabilities is the multiple predestination. You get them all with some probability. Edited August 11, 2019 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delay Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, kerbiloid said: Yes. The full set of probabilities is the multiple predestination. You get them all with some probability. But if the current state of the universe is predestined, any past state would have inevitably lead to the current universe, regardless of the random nature of quantum mechanics. Therefore randomness is not random? Edited August 11, 2019 by Delay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Delay said: But if the current state of the universe is predestined, any past state would have inevitably lead to the current universe, (Btw, you just briefly presented the multiple histories conception) 4 minutes ago, Delay said: Therefore randomness is not random? But doesn't anything random require a test to get a determined result? And any test means "before" and "after" states. So, a "random" can take place only if exclude at least one dimension (the "time" axis) from the ultimate ensemble. So, any random can exist only as a particular case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delay Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kerbiloid said: So, any random can exist only as a particular case. The outcome is a particular case. Roll a die once and it may show a 5. Roll it again and you may get a different result. That doesn't mean that the 12548562nd roll of the die is predestined to roll a 6. It could roll a 6, after all every number occurs 1/6 the time given a large enough sample, but again it doesn't imply that this roll couldn't have resulted in a 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. Edited August 11, 2019 by Delay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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