Why is Saturn I... Saturn?

[Jestersage]

It was only looking at some of the most excellent craft makers do I realize Saturn I is a cluster of Redstone rocket tanks. In that case, how come it's classified as Saturn and not Redstone/Jupiter?

[G'th]

Well generally just by fact that it was several rocket stages clustered together meant it needed a new designation, and that original designation was Juno V. 

However, in time as it came to be used to launch the initial Apollo CSM hardware for flight testing purposes, it was re-designated as the Saturn 1. 

THis is why the more well known Saturn 1B is named the 1B, as that launcher was derived from the Saturn 1. 

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

Because the archaic male chauvinism was against the original name Juno V.

 

[Capt. Hunt]

2 hours ago, Jestersage said:

It was only looking at some of the most excellent craft makers do I realize Saturn I is a cluster of Redstone rocket tanks. In that case, how come it's classified as Saturn and not Redstone/Jupiter?

it's not like they strapped 8 Redstones together for the first stage.  It was still a new built launch vehicle, they just used off the shelf parts in the 1st stage.  Also, the upper stage was originally designed to be common with the Saturn V.

[Gargamel]

I watched one of her videos a while ago where she went through all the various versions of the Saturn, and how they were named, and how each mission was designated.  I can't seem to find the video, but it's somewhere in this list:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw95T_TgbGHhTml4xZ9yIqg/videos

If you haven't seen any of her stuff, it's really worth watching.  She's a true space hipster, eschewing anything from the shuttle era on.   And she knows her stuff, master's degree in the topic. 

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, Gargamel said:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw95T_TgbGHhTml4xZ9yIqg/videos

If you haven't seen any of her stuff, it's really worth watching.  She's a true space hipster, eschewing anything from the shuttle era on.   And she knows her stuff, master's degree in the topic. 

I second that. She, I mean, her videos are worth of being seeing!

[Bill Phil]

Saturn is after Jupiter.

[YNM]

Just because Delta is Extended Thor, doesn't mean Delta doesn't deserve a new name.

Clustering a few tanks is a lot more than just extending a tank.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Saturn is after Jupiter.

Juno, too. But married after Jupiter.

 

[sevenperforce]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Saturn is after Jupiter.

What he said. That was Von Braun's idea, btw.

The next planet out from Jupiter is Saturn, so the next-biggest rocket family after Jupiter was named Saturn.

The tank-clustering thing was only because they had tanks sitting on the shelf. They clustered Redstone tanks around a Jupiter tank; it wasn't one or the other. That was quicker than tooling a brand new 6.6-meter tank.

They put thrust plates above and below the cluster of tanks. The H-1 engines were technically derived from the S-3Ds used for Jupiter, but they had gone through a complete redesign already to become the X-1 and then they were further updated and altered to the point of no longer being recognizable by the time they were clustered under the Saturn 1 thrust plate.

[YNM]

51 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

The next planet out from Jupiter is Saturn, so the next-biggest rocket family after Jupiter was named Saturn.

The next one... Neptune. No, Nova !

[wumpus]

5 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I watched one of her videos a while ago where she went through all the various versions of the Saturn, and how they were named, and how each mission was designated.  I can't seem to find the video, but it's somewhere in this list:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw95T_TgbGHhTml4xZ9yIqg/videos

If you haven't seen any of her stuff, it's really worth watching.  She's a true space hipster, eschewing anything from the shuttle era on.   And she knows her stuff, master's degree in the topic. 

Note that while her history appears great, her grasp of the science side can be a bit more spotty.  This one is just plain wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnXdEMtU_DE

But I certainly have her subscribed for the history stuff.

[NSEP]

We don't call the Saturn I a Redstone rocket, because they are two completely different rockets with completely different capabilities, and just because they use they happend to use the same fuel tanks in the stage, doesn't mean they are of the same family.

The rockets, along with all the other projects are likely not named after the planets, but the mythological figures. Note how all the other projects (Apollo, Gemini, Centaur, Ares, Juno, Orion, Atlas, et cetera) are named after mythological figures too.

You would think that if they name it after the planets, they would do it in some kind of order, (Apollo > Mercury > Venus > Terra > Mars, et cetera) but they didn't.

[sevenperforce]

14 minutes ago, NSEP said:

The rockets, along with all the other projects are likely not named after the planets, but the mythological figures. Note how all the other projects (Apollo, Gemini, Centaur, Ares, Juno, Orion, Atlas, et cetera) are named after mythological figures too.

You would think that if they name it after the planets, they would do it in some kind of order, (Apollo > Mercury > Venus > Terra > Mars, et cetera) but they didn't.

The man himself disagrees:

Quote

"With the beep-beep-beep of Sputnik on October 4, 1957, the Soviet Union had inaugurated the Space Age. It had also presented American planners with the painful realization that there was no launch vehicle in the U.S. stable capable of orbiting anything approaching Sputnik's weight.

"Responding to a proposal submitted by the Army Ballistic Missile Agency, the Department of Defense was in just the right mood to authorize ABMA to develop a 1,500,000-pound-thrust booster. That unprecedented thrust was to be generated by clustering eight S-3D Rocketdyne engines used in the Jupiter and Thor missiles. The tankage for the kerosene and liquid oxygen was also to be clustered to make best use of tools and fixtures available from the Redstone and Jupiter programs. The program was named "Saturn" simply because Saturn was the next outer planet after Jupiter in the solar system.

"Gen. John B. Medaris, commander of ABMA and my boss, felt that for a good design job on the booster it was necessary for us also to study suitable upper stages for the Saturn. On November 18, 1959, Saturn was transferred to the new National Aeronautics and Space Administration. NASA promptly appointed a committee to settle the upper-stage selection for Saturn. It was chaired by Dr. Abe Silverstein who, as associate director of NASA's Lewis Center in Cleveland, had spent years exploring liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel. As a result of this work the Air Force had let a contract with Pratt & Whitney for the development of a small 15,000-pound-thrust liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen engine, two of which were to power a new "Centaur" top stage for the Air Force's Atlas. Abe was on solid ground when he succeeded in persuading his committee to swallow its scruples about the risks of the new fuel and go to high-power liquid hydrogen for the upper stage of Saturn."

 

-Wernher Von Braun, "Saturn the Giant" (1975)

 

[NSEP]

1 minute ago, sevenperforce said:

The man himself disagrees:

 

Odd. Really odd choice, Wherner.

You'd they would call their biggest rocket the Jupiter. NASA had a really messy naming scheme. Was Wherner in charge of the naming scheme? He probably was really uncertain of what his biggest rocket would be .

 

[sevenperforce]

6 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Odd. Really odd choice, Wherner.

You'd they would call their biggest rocket the Jupiter. NASA had a really messy naming scheme. Was Wherner in charge of the naming scheme? He probably was really uncertain of what his biggest rocket would be .

Evidently there was some uncertainty as to whether there would be four or five F-1 engines on the first stage; we almost ended up with the Saturn IV.

Had they chosen to use RL-10 engines rather than J-2s, they would have needed no fewer than 13 of them on S-II.

[NSEP]

19 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Had they chosen to use RL-10 engines rather than J-2s, they would have needed no fewer than 13 of them on S-II.

Apparently the RL-10 costs 38 million dollars to build. Not sure if it was different in the 60s (ignoring the inflation of course). Im glad they didn't go full N-1, when it comes to the second stage.

Speaking of rocket engines on the Saturn, some Moon Hoaxies believe the Saturn V F-1 engines had H-1 engines hidden under the nozzle. I know, doesn't make a single but off sence, but it is kind of related to the topic we are talking about here, but it isn't related to the topic of the thread, so how about we get back on track .

[sevenperforce]

8 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Speaking of rocket engines on the Saturn, some Moon Hoaxies believe the Saturn V F-1 engines had H-1 engines hidden under the nozzle. I know, doesn't make a single but off sence, but it is kind of related to the topic we are talking about here, but it isn't related to the topic of the thread, so how about we get back on track .

Seriously? How..what...cite?

[kerbiloid]

44 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

The man himself disagrees

But originally Jupiter surrounded with 8 Redstones was named Juno V.
Where were those planets then?

As well as Nova (proto-Saturn). Where is such planet?

Btw.

Spoiler

Quote

Cronus sired several children by Rhea: Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon,

So, Saturn (Chronos) = Jupiter + 8 consumed Redstones. 
Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon...
What are the names of the other 3 Redstones?
Which rocket is named Rhea?

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Nova (proto-Saturn)

Nova is expanded Saturn.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, YNM said:

Nova is expanded Saturn.

Nova was being developed as the lunar rocket since 1959, and it still was in 1961.
But later (~1962 ?) they replaced the original Nova project with a Nova cosplay based on 1957 von Braun's econom-class proposal, named Juno V,  which was a Jupiter surrounded with 8 Redstones.
They renamed Juno V project into Saturn I, and developed a mod Saturn, containing parts for different rockets, from medium-class Saturn IB to feel-like-Nova Saturn V, looking almost similar to a lightened version of Nova.

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Bill Phil]

7 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Nova was being developed as the lunar rocket since 1959, and it still was in 1961.
But later (~1962 ?) they replaced the original Nova project with a Nova cosplay based on 1957 von Braun's econom-class proposal, named Juno V,  which was a Jupiter surrounded with 8 Redstones.
They renamed Juno V project into Saturn I, and developed a mod Saturn, containing parts for different rockets, from medium-class Saturn IB to feel-like-Nova Saturn V, looking almost similar to a lightened version of Nova.

 

There's post-Apollo Nova, and the original designs. Some of which were smaller than the Saturn V, and others were still quite similar. Once LOR was selected, the Saturn C-5 was chosen as the primary vehicle. The Saturn V would be derived from this design.

[wumpus]

17 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

But originally Jupiter surrounded with 8 Redstones was named Juno V.
Where were those planets then?

As well as Nova (proto-Saturn). Where is such planet?

Btw.

  Hide contents

So, Saturn (Chronos) = Jupiter + 8 consumed Redstones. 
Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon...
What are the names of the other 3 Redstones?
Which rocket is named Rhea?

 

Zeus/Jupiter was obviously one of the children.  Surprisingly enough, he was the youngest (considering he wound up on top) and the only one not devoured by Cronus.

[Sorabh]

Werhner's Jupiter class rockets were capable to send a satellite to space much before the Soviets. His pleas were ignored, as Jupiter rockets belonged to the Army, and the administration did not want a civilian space program's first rocket to be of Military origin. (You say Vanguard is a Navy rocket? Hush you!)

The next series of rockets after the Juno rockets(which were renamed Jupiter Redstone missiles) was called Saturn, or as Werhner called it "After Jupiter".

Source:"Live from Cape Canaveral: Covering the Space Race, from Sputnik to today"  by Jay Barbree.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Sorabh

[Sorabh]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

Hard lessons.

The Vanguard was an incomplete rocket when it launched, that's basically it. 

The funny thing is that the Administration did not want to be reminded that this Redstone missile core # 29 was the exact rocket which could have put a US satellite in orbit before Soviets. Hence they renamed the Jupiter Redstone rocket to Juno for slightly less PR damage