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Ozone oxidiser?

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26 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

On Titan, you can fly with wings strapped to your arms.

0_0

Thats the best fact I've read in a long time.

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39 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Obligatory:

Also, related:

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I went and checked the escape velocities of each of them and found that the closest the Cessna got was about 1/4th of Charon's escape velocity (202 TC302R doesn't have one listed).  And I'm likely using the most common (of recently made) Cessnas max speed rather than cruising speed (I used .063km/s).

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9 minutes ago, wumpus said:

I went and checked the escape velocities of each of them and found that the closest the Cessna got was about 1/4th of Charon's escape velocity (202 TC302R doesn't have one listed).  And I'm likely using the most common (of recently made) Cessnas max speed rather than cruising speed (I used .063km/s).

An amusing exercise: using the theoretical maximum velocity of a Tesla with no air resistance, which worlds in our solar system would allow it to jump into orbit? And which ones would allow it to jump into an escape trajectory altogether? 

Of course the lack of downforce would be problematic to say the least....

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30 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

An amusing exercise: using the theoretical maximum velocity of a Tesla with no air resistance, which worlds in our solar system would allow it to jump into orbit? And which ones would allow it to jump into an escape trajectory altogether? 

Of course the lack of downforce would be problematic to say the least....

The problem is that Teslas lack a transmission and are limited to around ~100mph (might be slightly higher to allow winning a drag race).  You would have to change the gearing and software to get them to go fast.  Heating would also be a difficult issue, for the engines, batteries, and tires.  Judging from what I've heard of Bonneville salt flat runs, you can't do anywhere near orbital velocity with tires and will have to switch to solid aluminum wheels (moreso since they won't be cooled by air).

After that it is a relatively simple calculation to work out how hot the engines/motors can get, how many Joules of heat it takes to heat them up to that level, and then use the efficiency of a Tesla to figure out how much energy has been transmitted to the tires to get it to that speed, then convert that energy into speed (and I'm sure that Al wheels have resistance as well).

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42 minutes ago, wumpus said:

The problem is that Teslas lack a transmission and are limited to around ~100mph (might be slightly higher to allow winning a drag race).  You would have to change the gearing and software to get them to go fast.  Heating would also be a difficult issue, for the engines, batteries, and tires.  Judging from what I've heard of Bonneville salt flat runs, you can't do anywhere near orbital velocity with tires and will have to switch to solid aluminum wheels (moreso since they won't be cooled by air).

Teslas are software-limited to a top speed of 155 mph, but the new Roadster is able to reach 250 mph with the limit removed. 250 mph is about 112 m/s.

Escape velocity of Ceres is 510 km/s so that's within half an order of magnitude. Varuna's escape velocity is 380 m/s. Miranda, Uranus's innermost moon, has an escape velocity of only 193 m/s so its orbital velocity is around 136 m/s. Mimas, the smallest gravitationally-rounded object we've discovered, has an escape velocity of 159 m/s and an orbital velocity of 112.4 m/s.

Any smaller than Mimas, and you get into irregular moons. Hyperion could be escaped at a speed of as little as 45 m/s if you start from the right place.

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2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Teslas are software-limited to a top speed of 155 mph, but the new Roadster is able to reach 250 mph with the limit removed. 250 mph is about 112 m/s.

Escape velocity of Ceres is 510 km/s so that's within half an order of magnitude. Varuna's escape velocity is 380 m/s. Miranda, Uranus's innermost moon, has an escape velocity of only 193 m/s so its orbital velocity is around 136 m/s. Mimas, the smallest gravitationally-rounded object we've discovered, has an escape velocity of 159 m/s and an orbital velocity of 112.4 m/s.

Any smaller than Mimas, and you get into irregular moons. Hyperion could be escaped at a speed of as little as 45 m/s if you start from the right place.

The problem remains the same: is the motor sufficiently efficient (and massive) to put 510km/s to the wheels before it cooks itself due to lack of cooling.  Both the Tesla and Roadster absolutely require that atmosphere for continual use, in this instance we can cut the motors once we are inertiaborne (like airborne, only via orbital mechanics in a vacuum).  Electrics tend to want to be cooler than fossil fuel heat engines, so be careful how much you use them.  My understanding is that drag racers can do the 1/4 mile on empty radiators (not what I'd think is a good idea, but not all of them feel like plumbing the thing up, nor eating the nasty aero penalty an exposed radiator inflicts).  I'd expect a Tesla S would be well over 155mph [70m/s] (with the limiter removed) in 402m, but going beyond that is asking for heating issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F76-npz0CeI

[Jason Fenske discusses the issues of extreme speeds in production cars.  Electrics should be mentioned in passing, because they have the same issues].

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1 hour ago, wumpus said:

My understanding is that drag racers can do the 1/4 mile on empty radiators

Yes, top fuel dragsters typically use a solid block with water-filled heads, since they don't have to run at full power very long.

To keep it on topic, I wonder how a top fuel dragster would do with ozone injection...?

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:17 PM, sevenperforce said:

if you mix ozone and fluorine, you can fill your tanks with it and make a turbine engine that will run in any atmosphere in the solar system!

Ah, that bracing smell of ozone and fluorine...
Like brushing your teeth in a thunderstorm.

Though, Ganymede and Europa have oxygen atmospheres, he-he.

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12 hours ago, wumpus said:

The problem remains the same: is the motor sufficiently efficient (and massive) to put 510km/s to the wheels before it cooks itself due to lack of cooling.  Both the Tesla and Roadster absolutely require that atmosphere for continual use, in this instance we can cut the motors once we are inertiaborne (like airborne, only via orbital mechanics in a vacuum).  Electrics tend to want to be cooler than fossil fuel heat engines, so be careful how much you use them.  My understanding is that drag racers can do the 1/4 mile on empty radiators (not what I'd think is a good idea, but not all of them feel like plumbing the thing up, nor eating the nasty aero penalty an exposed radiator inflicts).  I'd expect a Tesla S would be well over 155mph [70m/s] (with the limiter removed) in 402m, but going beyond that is asking for heating issues.

The new Roadster has the best acceleration of any production vehicle in the world, so I can't imagine it takes very long to get up to 250 mph. Obviously not enough to get off Pluto or something, but Mimas should be achievable. Might cook the motors in the process but you only have to do it once.

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On 5/16/2018 at 1:57 PM, sevenperforce said:

On Titan, you can fly with wings strapped to your arms.

You could do the same on Earth's Moon, given a 2 atm. air containment with enough space inside.  And you wouldn't have to worry about suffocation and frostbite in the Luna City air storage silo.

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Ozone naturally wants to dissociate.

It's like trying to use nitroglycerin as propellant.

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Spoiler
4 hours ago, YNM said:

Ozone naturally wants to dissociate.

It's like trying to use nitroglycerin as propellant.

You've just discovered the hypergolics of future.

 

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13 hours ago, YNM said:

Ozone naturally wants to dissociate.

It's like trying to use nitroglycerin as propellant.

I don't recall whether it was Ignition or Things I Won't Work With that said liquid ozone was volatile in comparison to "nice stable things like nitroglycerin".

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On 5/16/2018 at 8:57 PM, sevenperforce said:

On Titan, you can fly with wings strapped to your arms.

Wings are overkill.

Spoiler

latest?cb=20170730144634

 

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4 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

I don't recall whether it was Ignition or Things I Won't Work With that said liquid ozone was volatile in comparison to "nice stable things like nitroglycerin".

How much does dynomite (nitroglycerin stablized in a clay substrate, i.e. Alfred Nobel's invention) add to the weight?  Of course, I wouldn't recommend going through a search like Al did to find a means to stablize ozone (one son was blown up, the other was rather convinced he deserved the inheritance).

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15 minutes ago, wumpus said:

How much does dynomite (nitroglycerin stablized in a clay substrate, i.e. Alfred Nobel's invention) add to the weight?  Of course, I wouldn't recommend going through a search like Al did to find a means to stablize ozone (one son was blown up, the other was rather convinced he deserved the inheritance).

You could try stabilizing ozone with nitronium perchlorate to make a medium-cryo pumpable slurry.

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1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Let's return from the world of fantasies to the real world.

Fuel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentaborane
Oxidizer: fluorine-stabilized ozone

I'd say to do oxygen difluoride...or, even more exciting, dioxygen diflouride (FOOF).

The former combo would have a specific impulse of 432 seconds; the latter we don't know.

Of course, pentaborane is nasty enough to make hydrazine seem tame; the only reason to use it is that it gives you cryogen-level performance with hydrocarbon density and hypergolic storability.

If you replace it with good old liquid hydrogen in an engine with oxygen difluoride, you can joyously ride all the way up to 477 seconds, blowing past LOX/H2. Your thrust suffers in comparison to pentaborane, though.

From a pure-chemistry standpoint, your maximum possible isp is going to be FOOF, liquid hydrogen, and powdered beryllium, with a projected isp of 568 seconds. I don't want to be anywhere in the same state when that sucker test-fires, though.

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46 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

I'd say to do oxygen difluoride...or, even more exciting, dioxygen diflouride (FOOF).

We should mix it with liquid ozone.
Because it's cool, too. Very cool, -200°.

46 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

From a pure-chemistry standpoint, your maximum possible isp is going to be FOOF, liquid hydrogen, and powdered beryllium, with a projected isp of 568 seconds. I don't want to be anywhere in the same state when that sucker test-fires, though.

Maybe add some lithium, too.

Quote

The highest specific impulse for a chemical propellant ever test-fired in a rocket engine was 542 seconds (5,320 m/s) with a tripropellant of lithium, fluorine, and hydrogen. However, this combination is impractical; see rocket fuel.[20][21]

 

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48 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

...I don't want to be anywhere on the same continent when that sucker test-fires, though.

FTFY. :wink:

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8 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

I don't recall whether it was Ignition or Things I Won't Work With that said liquid ozone was volatile in comparison to "nice stable things like nitroglycerin".

I'm not sure either but Ignition did mention that compared to liquid ozone, HTP had all the sensitivity of a pro-wrestler.

Or words to that effect.

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