Two titanic theories.

[kerbiloid]

Who was driving the iceberg?

And btw wasn't the iceberg a frozen Olympic?

Edited June 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[LordFerret]

11 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

Oh really?  DO WE KNOW WHERE JAMES CAMERON WAS ON THE NIGHT OF APRIL 14TH, 1912? 

Also, thread moved to the Lounge since it's unrelated to space. 

I know where he was... not even born yet.

 

This is all such BS - as in Bull Crap. Figures, YouTube. You know what you people should be watching on YouTube?... old Bugs Bunny cartoons, you'll get a better more truthful education.

 

My family had a Titanic survivor; His name was John Haggan (alt spelling: Hagan), feel free to Google him. His existence and experience is well documented (and also very well known within the family); Hired as a stoker, and ordered as a rower in lifeboat #3 during the sinking. It was not a torpedo, or a fire, or the switching of ships... the Titanic hit an iceberg and sank. Carry on.

[Gargamel]

13 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Obligatory:

Too many guesses at those values.   Being a woodworker myself, I know that woods commonly used in millwork (doors for example) can have densities that vary between 1/3 that and 6 times as much.    And the door wouldn't have sank, it would have submerged until the combined flotation of their bodies and the door would have created buoyancy.   That might have been enough to keep them both out of the water enough, long enough to be rescued. 

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

What is always shocking me:
sailships made of wood - sink;
exactly this wood with survivors - float.

Do they have so many metal nails and cannons pulling the ship down? Unlikely, as ancient ships got sunken, too.

Like a fastfood.
When meat, tomatoes, lettuce, bread, cheese is put on a plate, it's a healthy natural food.
But if put them in a pile, it's a harmful fastfood.
Geometry matters.

 

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

What is always shocking me:
sailships made of wood - sink;
exactly this wood with survivors - float.

Do they have so many metal nails and cannons pulling the ship down? Unlikely, as ancient ships got sunken, too.

It just a simple application of the buoyancy equation.  If you are displacing more water than you weigh, you're gonna float.  If you let some water in, you're no longer displacing it, and you float a little less.  Let a lot of water in, and then you are stuck with hoping the density of the materials of your ship is less than the density of water.  

Most sailing vessels, wood or otherwise, have a very heavy and dense keel to help give the boat a 'righting' force to offset the force of the wind trying to push the sails over.  Without this heavy keel, the wind would just topple the ship over, and there it would float.  Traditionally, these keels were made from lead or iron, either poured or in shot, or filled with rocks and boulders.   It these heavy materials that make the overall density of a ship less than the that of water, so it requires the displacement of the water by the hull of the ship to stay afloat. 

Unless you have designed your sailing vessel to survive a capsize (or turtle when you go over completely), by adding sealed compartments, or sections of ultra low density foam, then there is a good chance the boat will sink.  A lot of small light weight racing boats don't use a keel, they use center boards that work against the action of the wind and translate that tipping force into forward movement, along with the crew (and stuff) being placed far off center into the wind to help keep it upright.   When they flip, there isn't a heavy keel to sink the boat, and they are usually fairly easy to flip back over, if all goes well. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Gargamel

[kerbiloid]

10 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

It just a simple application of the buoyancy equation.  If you are displacing more water than you weigh, you're gonna float.  If you let some water in, you're no longer displacing it, and you float a little less.  Let a lot of water in, and then you are stuck with hoping the density of the materials of your ship is less than the density of water. 

Yes, that's so. But once the ship hides under the water surface, we could await it stops sinking, as it already has displaced the volume of its wooden parts.
So, it would be floating with the upper deck right at the surface.

But keel explains.

Edited June 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[sevenperforce]

Since the heavy keel was often not enough to keep a wooden sailing ship upright, virtually all wooden ships were forced to carry ballast: something heavy in the lowest hold of the ship to pull your keel down. Modern ships use a water tank for precise ballasting; wooden sailing ships carried quarried stone or lead. 

Obvious downside: with a hold full of stone, you're no longer relying on the buoyancy of your ship's structure to keep you afloat. If you start taking on water (either due to a hull breach or because wave action causes hull flexion and opens gaps) faster than the bilge pumps can clear it, the water displaces the air in the hold and your ballast drags you down to meet Davy Jones.

This is one of the many reasons why there is a practical limit on the size of wooden ships. The bending moment of hull beams scales with the keel length, so waves will cause the beams to flex and open up much much wider in a 200' ship than in a 100' ship. Something the size of the mythic Noah's Ark would have needed a hull 1/3 the thickness of the whole ship just to hold together, with granite ballast completely filling the hold just to keep it right-side-up, and constantly-operating modern bilge pumps to get rid of the water constantly pouring in through gaps.

[Gargamel]

15 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Since the heavy keel was often not enough to keep a wooden sailing ship upright, virtually all wooden ships were forced to carry ballast: something heavy in the lowest hold of the ship to pull your keel down. Modern ships use a water tank for precise ballasting; wooden sailing ships carried quarried stone or lead. 

Just as a point of order, I would argue that ballast is adjustable.  Either through moving it through the ship, or dropping it completely from the tanks (Think the Trieste dumping the lead shot to resurface).  Otherwise, it's just part of the keel.  (Sorry for being a nit)

Modern racing sailing yachts use a keel and ballast both.  The Volvo Open Race boats (The VOR60) uses a canting Keel, seen here underneath the boat.  It is actually on a pivot that allows the mass of the keel to be offset by something like 30 degrees off center, increasing the moment of righting:

In this photo (and visible in the above photo, but easier to see here) the crew has piled most of the spare sails onto gunwales of the deck, in order to help offset the mass.  The crew shuttles the water tanks to the high side, and they off duty crew all (try to) sleep on the high side also. 

 

 

Sorry, I just love the Volvo Ocean Race, and I'm a sailing racing nut when I can be.  If anybody's curious, the VOR is a ~7 month long round the world race.  They are in their final legs now, and last time the finish was only a few minutes apart IIRC.   That's the beauty of one design boats. 

[qzgy]

5 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

That's the beauty of one design boats. 

As in only one kind of boat can compete?

Actually seems really neat. Not a nut but I have a mild interest in ships. Might need to take a look some time.

[Gargamel]

1 minute ago, qzgy said:

As in only one kind of boat can compete?

Actually seems really neat. Not a nut but I have a mild interest in ships. Might need to take a look some time.

Yes, they may be the most restrictive of one design big boat classes out there (Correction: they are currently sailing the VOR65 class).  Which sounds bad, but think like NASCAR (but with actual skill involved *dons flame suit*).  Each Hull is made by one manufacturer, and purchased by each team.  Same with the masts.  And I believe they are issued 2 sets of sails by the race committee, so they are all identical (aside from the logos and such).  So every boat is pretty much identical, it's down to the crew to make the difference.  The skipper has to sail the right heading to maintain speed, the crew has to trim the sails to maximize that speed, the navigator has to forecast the weather so they can take the right route, etc etc.  And when you are going around the world, all that makes a huge difference.  As I said, the winning margin was minuscule a couple years ago.    Which is amazing when you consider the difference between last and first was a couple days. 

I used to race the FJ class, an Olympic trainer, and while it was one design, it wasn't that tightly enforced, so there was some difference between each boat, but not much.  The class I currently race is a Soling 1m (Radio controlled 1m boat, as I don't have time nor funds to do full sized boats).  These boats are built from a kit by a single company (which of late has been causing supply issues), and there are very specific standards that must be met to be a legal boat.  But anything that isn't stipulated in the rules, is open for adaption.  The kit comes with a bunch of wood blocks that make up the structure inside the hull.  I redesigned the interior and 3d printed it, getting something like a 60% reduction in weight inside the hull.  Which is huge, because the boats have a minimum weight limit they must hit (fully rigged for racing), so that meant I was able to add more weight to the keel, which increases the righting force, which allows my sails to stay more upright in the wind, giving me more power, and allowing me to point a bit more into the wind, which can shave a few boat lengths off the total distance traveled.  

So yeah, One design racing is awesome. 

15 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Actually seems really neat. Not a nut but I have a mild interest in ships. Might need to take a look some time.

Check out their Youtube channel.  Each boat has a dedicated cameraman on board, and they all have satellite uplinks, so you can get almost realtime tracking and video of the races.  Plus all the cameramen all have drones, so you get those soaring beauty shots of the race in open ocean, not normally doable as they are outside of helicopter range. 

[StrandedonEarth]

 

6 hours ago, Gargamel said:

but think like NASCAR

By which you mean IROC, the International Race Of Champions, where the top drivers race in identical cars...

As to the OP, yeah, massive conspiracies simply don't hold water. No way a cover-up of that size could last that long.