Dimas152

attitude control as action group, assymetric action grouping

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so this thing came past my mind, idk if anyone here thought the same

what if... we have roll l/r, pitch u/d, yaw l/r as action group? also an option to make action grouping assymetric even if the part attached with "mirror" symmetry option?
should b gud tho

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First: if you were hoping for some serious feedback, I would suggest leaving the meme-talk for other places; it doesn't work in this forum.

Second: it would help start the discussion if you explained what the benefits would be of your proposed suggestions.

 

For example:

On 6/21/2018 at 3:22 AM, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

roll l/r, pitch u/d, yaw l/r as action group

I get a feeling you either didn't quite think this one through, or you are failing to explain what you mean by it. Action groups are toggles, on/off. Apart from taking up precious action group keys very rapidly (stock only has 10), there is no fine control with action groups - it would be full deployment or nothing, which is no use for roll/pitch/yaw. What would be the benefit of this, when in stock you already have a separate key or input assigned for each of those, which do allow fine control? Unless you mean something entirely different, but you'll have to explain.

 

On 6/21/2018 at 3:22 AM, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

an option to make action grouping assymetric even if the part attached with "mirror" symmetry option

This part, if I understand it correctly, has been mentioned before, and I think it is on a lot of people's wishlist. Symmetry is often handy and efficient for building a craft, but just because I build with symmetry doesn't necessarily mean I want the parts to *act* symmetrically when flying it. Unfortunately right now it's both or nothing. Options are good, and this one would certainly get used if it was implemented.

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On 6/27/2018 at 7:54 AM, swjr-swis said:

First: if you were hoping for some serious feedback, I would suggest leaving the meme-talk for other places; it doesn't work in this forum.

This part, if I understand it correctly, has been mentioned before, and I think it is on a lot of people's wishlist. Symmetry is often handy and efficient for building a craft, but just because I build with symmetry doesn't necessarily mean I want the parts to *act* symmetrically when flying it. Unfortunately right now it's both or nothing. Options are good, and this one would certainly get used if it was implemented.

Guideline 2.3b, in fact.

I can't think of a use for this, but that's because of a failure of my creativity, not that I believe no one has a valid case. Just for my own curiosity, do you have an example?

Perhaps a stock "Strip Symmetry" function would solve this problem, as well as a host of others. (Editor Extensions has this function already.)

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On 6/27/2018 at 4:54 PM, swjr-swis said:

I get a feeling you either didn't quite think this one through, or you are failing to explain what you mean by it. Action groups are toggles, on/off. Apart from taking up precious action group keys very rapidly (stock only has 10), there is no fine control with action groups - it would be full deployment or nothing, which is no use for roll/pitch/yaw. What would be the benefit of this, when in stock you already have a separate key or input assigned for each of those, which do allow fine control? Unless you mean something entirely different, but you'll have to explain.

I'm going to have to disagree with most of this. First there are more action groups that 10 in stock. Stage (spacebar) can be set to an action group, so that something will activate everytime you stage. Likewise brakes (b) are an action group... one that I often use to keep part count down. Instead of adding airbreaks, I can have brakes deploy one set of elevons up, and another down. Gear is also an action group, as is lights.

Similar to using elevons as an airbrake with B as an action group, if the yaw command could be set up as an actioon group, then we could make rudder systems like this:

main-qimg-5148988b1993c9b2ce095d410ad1a7

I'll also point out that for those of us that fly only with a keyboard, we also onlty have full deployment or nothing. I would love to have pitch forward and pitch backward be action groups that I could use to toggle a set of engines on VTOL landers for example... but ot work well it would have to be like the brake command where brakes are applied temporarily rather than toggled,  because using pitch/yaw/roll to action group engines on a vtol craft will involve a lot of tapping. With brakes, they will deploy when b is held, and undeploy when its released... we'd need engines to be able to activate or deactivate when  q/w/e/a/s/d are held and then deactivate or activate when the key is released again.

However, this could be used to make main LFO engines essentially act like RCS. I would add or modify RCS up/down/left/right to the action group listing.

Right now for some VTOL designs, I need to do a lot of work to get things to balance right and have enough authroity to accomodate variable payloads, sometimes this requires a lot of vernor engines, or pinning an engine window and actively adjusting thrust:

V2qhJCs.png

I was about to suggest differential engine throttling as a feature for higher level pilots or probe cores (that would be enabled with RCS or somthing like that)... but configuring toggle engine to an a pitch/yaw/roll command would also work for me (ideally something like RCS pitch so there's a way to turn the toggling off at other stages of the flight, but in many cases I just set the thrust limiter to 0 until I'm ready to use them, like this I can have multiple engines on the same action group for different stages of the flight)

 

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21 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Vou ter que discordar da maior parte disso. Primeiro, há mais grupos de ação que 10 em estoque. Stage (barra de espaços) pode ser definido para um grupo de ação, para que algo seja ativado toda vez que você encenar. Da mesma forma, os freios (b) são um grupo de ação ... um que costumo usar para manter a contagem parcial. Em vez de adicionar quebra-ventos, posso ter freios acionando um conjunto de elevações e outro para baixo. Gear também é um grupo de ação, assim como as luzes.

Semelhante ao uso de elevons como airbrake com B como um grupo de ação, se o comando yaw pudesse ser configurado como um grupo actioon, então poderíamos fazer sistemas de leme como este:

main-qimg-5148988b1993c9b2ce095d410ad1a7

Eu também ressalto que para aqueles de nós que voam apenas com um teclado, nós também temos uma implantação completa ou nada. Eu adoraria ter o pitch forward e o pitch backward ser grupos de ação que eu poderia usar para alternar um conjunto de motores em landers VTOL por exemplo ... mas ot funcionaria bem, teria que ser como o comando de freio onde os freios são aplicados temporariamente do que alternado, porque usar pitch / yaw / roll para motores de grupo de ação em um ofício vtol envolverá muita batida. Com freios, eles serão implantados quando b é mantido, e desimplantar quando liberado ... nós precisaríamos de mecanismos para poder ativar ou desativar quando q / w / e / a / s / d são mantidos e, em seguida, desativar ou ativar quando a chave é liberada novamente.

No entanto, isso pode ser usado para fazer com que os principais mecanismos LFO funcionem como o RCS . Gostaria de adicionar ou modificar o RCS up / down / left / right para a listagem do grupo de ação.

Agora, para alguns projetos de VTOL , preciso trabalhar muito para equilibrar as coisas corretamente e ter autenticidade suficiente para acomodar cargas úteis variáveis. Às vezes, isso exige muitos mecanismos de vernor ou fixar uma janela de mecanismo e ajustar ativamente o impulso:

V2qhJCs.png

Eu estava prestes a sugerir o afogamento diferencial do motor como um recurso para pilotos de nível superior ou núcleos de sonda (que seriam habilitados com RCS ou algo assim) ... mas configurar o mecanismo de alternância para um comando pitch / yaw / roll também funcionaria me (idealmente algo como RCS pitch, então há uma maneira de desligar em outros estágios do vôo, mas em muitos casos eu simplesmente coloco o limitador de empuxo em 0 até que eu esteja pronto para usá-los, assim eu posso ter múltiplos motores no mesmo grupo de ação para diferentes fases do voo)

 

I would like more action groups, because those that come by default, ie the 10 + Light, brakes, landing gear, abort and stage, are not enough for my creative use, I am always limited within this standard, I have a macro keyboard, which I can not use because the KSP does not allow to configure the game by these buttons (Yes I already tried), the maximum I got was a choice, or I play the standard or I give up some functions, I agree that system RCS should join the action groups, it makes sense, but if there were more configurable action groups it would make it easier for everyone like you and me to do what they can to fly a VTOL. I am still waiting for a mod that increases the number of action groups in a functional way, because I do not think SQUAD will do so, at least not now.

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yes, more action groups in general would be nice... but I think having the ability to link activation of certain functions/parts specifically to the flight controls would be very good by itself, and also better in some ways than others.

If I could have an engine on the front of my VTOL craft fire when pitch up is held, that would be a lot more useful than having 20 numbered action groups (for example 0-9 on the keyboard, and 0-9 on the numpad). It wouldn't be the same using qweasd to control the craft, and have to tap numpad1-6 seperately to control engines for pitch/roll/yaw... and to have to press them twice for just a short burst

 

Which brings me to another idea... for toggle functions (like engines, landing gear, control surfaces, etc), instead of pressing the action group key twice to return to the original state (ie: press once, engine on... 5 seconds later press again to turn the engine off) it would be nice if we could hold the key down and have it toggle when the key is pressed and then released (ie hold the action group button for 5 seconds and an engine will fire for 5 seconds)... currently it seems the brakes on/off action group functions like this, but I don't think the other ones do (I may be wrong)

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16 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

.. currently it seems the brakes on/off action group functions like this, but I don't think the other ones do (I may be wrong)

I could be wrong but I think there is a setting options for this.... 

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14 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

differential engine throttling

 

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17 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

I'm going to have to disagree with most of this. First there are more action groups that 10 in stock. Stage (spacebar) can be set to an action group, so that something will activate everytime you stage. Likewise brakes (b) are an action group... one that I often use to keep part count down. Instead of adding airbreaks, I can have brakes deploy one set of elevons up, and another down. Gear is also an action group, as is lights.

I'm not sure why you feel we're in disagreement: your explanation rather proves my main point that stock has a restricted number of action groups to use, which makes them a precious resource that require careful weighing of what we want to use them for. Yes, there are a few more than the 10 'custom' action groups, but like your explanation shows, the functions tend to be necessary and so we often end up adding to their function, not simply using them free-form for entirely unrelated things.

In the end, what the OP suggests doesn't seem to add anything to already existing stock functionality: roll/yaw/pitch are already assigned to individual keys in a slightly more functional way than they would be if the keys only worked as toggles like the action groups. This is why I ask some clarification.

 

18 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

I'll also point out that for those of us that fly only with a keyboard, we also onlty have full deployment or nothing. I would love to have pitch forward and pitch backward be action groups that I could use to toggle a set of engines on VTOL landers for example... but ot work well it would have to be like the brake command where brakes are applied temporarily rather than toggled,  because using pitch/yaw/roll to action group engines on a vtol craft will involve a lot of tapping.

I fly only with keyboard and mouse too. I am a bit confused by the above explanation, especially because you use the default brake key as an example. The brake key is precisely the only 'action group' key that does not work like an action group: it is not a toggle, it only 'works' while you keep it pressed. Which is exactly how the default keys assigned to roll/yaw/pitch work already.

 

18 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

However, this could be used to make main LFO engines essentially act like RCS. I would add or modify RCS up/down/left/right to the action group listing.

This I would love having, although I would simply ask for a toggle button on the PAW of engines -all engines- where we could select 'Act as RCS'. If the game allowed this, we could build RCS with the power to match the size of our craft/station, or to use for VTOL like you explain.

But this is an essentially different thing than what this OP is asking.

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4 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

This I would love having, although I would simply ask for a toggle button on the PAW of engines -all engines- where we could select 'Act as RCS'. If the game allowed this, we could build RCS with the power to match the size of our craft/station, or to use for VTOL like you explain.

I had never considered that. But now that you mention it, yeah would be awesome. Though in the whole balance of things, you might see twitch or spark engines being used more often than the vernors (higher ISP AND thrust), making the vernors redundant sorta.

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23 hours ago, Catatau_27 said:

I would like more action groups, because those that come by default, ie the 10 + Light, brakes, landing gear, abort and stage, are not enough for my creative use, I am always limited within this standard, I have a macro keyboard, which I can not use because the KSP does not allow to configure the game by these buttons (Yes I already tried), the maximum I got was a choice, or I play the standard or I give up some functions, I agree that system RCS should join the action groups, it makes sense, but if there were more configurable action groups it would make it easier for everyone like you and me to do what they can to fly a VTOL. I am still waiting for a mod that increases the number of action groups in a functional way, because I do not think SQUAD will do so, at least not now.

There are 2 different mods that add more action groups and also can be edited on flight. You just have to google them.

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Action Groups Extended

and

Action Groups Anywhere

are what you are looking for.

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8 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

my main point that stock has a restricted number of action groups to use, which makes them a precious resource that require careful weighing of what we want to use them for.

His proposal, as I understand it, would increase the number of action groups, thus a criticism on the basis of restricted action groups seems to be backwards

Quote

I fly only with keyboard and mouse too. I am a bit confused by the above explanation, especially because you use the default brake key as an example. The brake key is precisely the only 'action group' key that does not work like an action group: it is not a toggle, it only 'works' while you keep it pressed. Which is exactly how the default keys assigned to roll/yaw/pitch work already.

You said: "there is no fine control with action groups - it would be full deployment or nothing, which is no use for roll/pitch/yaw." That's the way things already work when playing with a keyboard, that is far from "no use"

Also, the brake key does work like an action group, I can make any part activate when I press "b" (like parachutes deploying, decouplers staging, engines activating). It does work like a toggle. Brakes can toggle, you don't have to hold down B to keep brakes applied, the abort/lights/brakes can be activated without touching the keyboard, just click on the UI.

As I understand his proposal, 6 new action group slots would be added. Those groups would be activated by w,a,s,d,q,e and would allow you to have other parts activate/deactivate/toggle alongside the normal activation of control surfaces and reaction wheel torque

 

 

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