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Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge


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This challenge seems ridiculously over-complicated with excessively detailed objectives and would require way too much planning and time in real life to complete. I can't wait to do it! :lol:

I'm going to have to break out Excel and make some charts... maybe even design some custom logos and advertisements for my mission. WOOT!

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@Death Engineering I think its pretty clear that all hardware, and any resource which eventually becomes hardware (such as MaterialKits or Equipment to expand inflatable habitats) needs to come from Kerbin as part of the NPM.  A question on life support - if one were to use USI-LS, would we be allowed to mine ore or gypsum to convert it into fertilizer to supply greenhouses to create new supplies? Doing so would allow a base on Duna to become self-sufficient in the LS department, at least up to whatever the capacity is of the greenhouses and recyclers that have been shipped from Kerbin and successfully landed on Duna.

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Just now, Norcalplanner said:

And just like planning a long vacation trip, the thinking and planning are half the fun.

Haha so right :D !

Fun part is, I took many hours (like 15/20h easily) to design a rolling outpost with docks around, then various ships to fullfill achievements, and now that my outpost is JUST landed I'm redesigning everything else to max out the mission :confused:.

In my mind, docks are truly the best parts of this game ! :D

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I'm definitely going to be in on this one! Don't know where to find the time though...

It may take an awful long time for me to complete this with my current 6 day work schedule, but I'm thinking about doing a weekly episode or some such where I would write a piece similar to the reviews I'm doing for the KEA challenge each week along some images and videos. I might even tie the two timelines together while I'm at it to create my own continuity or something. Lots of building, lots of flying and lots of planning on top of lots of writing, this should be good!

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I figured out my launch schedule and will be launching with an NPM of 36.5t so I can have 2 launches prior to my first transfer window.

I'll be using a 2100DV window that takes a mere 184 days to transit.

There will be some orbital assembly, a lot of mining and this will be my first experience doing a TAC-LS mission, which should be exciting!

My first launch will comprise at minimum:

  • The first part of my base with however many kerbals I can squeeze out of my launch parameters including indefinite life support
  • An orbital LOP-G base for incoming and outgoing traffic to dock to prior to descent
  • An ascent launcher that can fly to Ike if required with a stopover at the base to collect all of my kerbals and escape
  • A mining vehicle suitable for Minmus and Ike ISRU mining
  • 4 comm relay sattelites
  • An interplanetary space bus for ferrying my kerbals around during every transfer window if applicable which also contains the required life support for the journey there and back again

Let the designing commence!

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9 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

A question on life support

USI-LS is a balanced LS mod and there's no reason to disallow a function of an acceptable mod, so yes.

 

7 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

Is the Duna Space Bus the same ship as Duna Ascent Module ?

We'd need 2 differents ships + Emergency Vehicle ?

Crew will need a way to orbit somehow, which is the Duna ascent module. The Duna Space Bus is a Duna ascent module with specific requirements. "Backup plan" can be an ascent module of any specification, but would be a second vehicle.

 

 

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The only thing I've done so far for this challenge is to think, write, and visualize.  Haven't even fired up a spreadsheet or KSP for this yet, and I'm already having a blast.  :D

That said, my current mission report (link in sig) is taking up most of my KSP time right now, so this may continue to be coffee break and commute time musings until after 1.4.5 drops.

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10 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

You're going down to Eve ? I see that the cheapest injection right after year 2 is almost 3k dV with a little more than 1 year of flight :o

Who's going down to eve?

I checked with some tools for a good window around eve, but as you said: 3k dv minimum. I might be able to afford that for an escape vehicle though, thoughts....

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14 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

You're going down to Eve ?

 

4 hours ago, hoioh said:

Who's going down to eve?

Not sure about getting help using Eve to get to Duna but coming back to Kerbin sure. Got nukes and some extra time? Use Eve to lower your Ap and save some fuel for the Kerbin insertion burn.

Like this: (original)

fwUURKcl.png

 

Edit: Using Ike to Duna capture: (original)

ziDJuwwl.png

 

 

 

Edited by Death Engineering
pics
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30 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

Use Eve to lower your Ap and save some fuel for the Kerbin insertion burn.

How much DV is that burn? Looks like I need to do some additional research...

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15 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

The only thing I've done so far for this challenge is to think, write, and visualize.  Haven't even fired up a spreadsheet or KSP for this yet, and I'm already having a blast.

Same here.

By now I'm pretty sure that I won't fly the mission as prescribed. Maybe I'll try gate-crashing. In any event, this challenge has kept me looking, trying and tinkering since it's been posted.

Edited by Laie
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@Death Engineering One more question came up. Does the Duna - Ike space bus have to be a single vehicle? Or could it consist of an atmospheric craft to go from the surface of Duna to the Duna space station, then a vacuum optimized craft to go from the station back and forth to Ike? Happy to do it either way, just want to know how to plan.

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1 hour ago, Norcalplanner said:

Does the Duna - Ike space bus have to be a single vehicle? Or could it consist of an atmospheric craft to go from the surface of Duna to the Duna space station, then a vacuum optimized craft to go from the station back and forth to Ike?

The idea is to expand mobility so let's say either way is fine. As long as it meets the other criteria, we'll expand the language to specify "Duna shuttle service".   

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6 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

The idea is to expand mobility so let's say either way is fine. As long as it meets the other criteria, we'll expand the language to specify "Duna shuttle service".

That's interesting, but it brings another question:

Is it possible to have one vehicle serve multiple purposes? For example, the Duna surface -> LDO shuttle be used as the Backup Ascent Vehicle for the "Backup Plan" achievement? Or do I have to have three separate vehicles on the surface (The main Duna Ascent/Landing Vehicle, The Backup Ascent Vehicle, and the Sufrace/LDO shuttle for the "Duna Shuttle Service")?

Thanks,

Michal.don

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On 7/18/2018 at 5:29 PM, Alchemist said:

So, the transfer window at the start of year 10 (with no more mission value to make or lose on new crew) is a good option to wrap a few achievements up (like the emergency takeoff), isn't it?
Also this scoring totally gives some incentive to stretch the transfer windows a bit

Correct.  
 

On 7/18/2018 at 5:29 PM, Alchemist said:

And what about refilling the life support at Kerbin? Without it, running the reusable transfer vehicle doesn't have much point, if you still have to launch LS freighters separately

LS supplies for the 'Advanced deep space transit" can be topped up in LKO, just not refueled. But, that would take away from the real benefit of the deep space transit which is crew rotation missions that use only the "free" crew shuttle; remember no supplies of any kind can transfer from the "free" crew shuttle.

This is where an LS mod plays better than using 'Ore' as a stock analog (greenhouses, recyclers...).
 

On 7/18/2018 at 5:29 PM, Alchemist said:

How exactly these ones are supposed to work: does the the third automatically include the previous ones or do they require several vehicles?

Great question. The 'basic rover' (+1) should be simple command-seat runabouts. The third mobility rule will automatically include the second mobility rule. 
 

4 hours ago, michal.don said:

That's interesting, but it brings another question:

Is it possible to have one vehicle serve multiple purposes? For example, the Duna surface -> LDO shuttle be used as the Backup Ascent Vehicle for the "Backup Plan" achievement? Or do I have to have three separate vehicles on the surface (The main Duna Ascent/Landing Vehicle, The Backup Ascent Vehicle, and the Sufrace/LDO shuttle for the "Duna Shuttle Service")?

Thanks,

Michal.don

The "primary ascent vehicle" definition was left vague enough to allow for exactly that. Like the "Duna shuttle service", the intent is to provide at least two ways for the crew to return to LDO. IOW, three vehicles are not required.   :) 

 

________________________________________

Welcome new challenge players! 

Found some questions that I missed tucked away in this week's posts; hopefully I got them all. LMK otherwise.

Edited by Death Engineering
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4 hours ago, michal.don said:

Or do I have to have three separate vehicles on the surface (The main Duna Ascent/Landing Vehicle, The Backup Ascent Vehicle, and the Sufrace/LDO shuttle for the "Duna Shuttle Service")?

I was wondering, too. Let's say I want to rotate the crew on Duna. In this case will I need 2xDAV, 1xEEV and the shuttle? Or can one DAV be enough if it brings the old crew to Duna orbit, like a taxi from Duna to DLO? Then it can either wait in DLO for the next crew or it can go to the surface again and serves as an emergency ascent vehicle (NOT ment as EEV).

Fur the Duna-Ike Space Bus the OP says "refueling permitted". Is it allowed to refuel on the surface of Duna/Ike only? Or can it refuel also in orbit?

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4 minutes ago, funk said:

I was wondering, too. Let's say I want to rotate the crew on Duna. In this case will I need 2xDAV, 1xEEV and the shuttle? Or can one DAV be enough if it brings the old crew to Duna orbit, like a taxi from Duna to DLO? Then it can either wait in DLO for the next crew or it can go to the surface again and serves as an emergency ascent vehicle (NOT ment as EEV).

Fur the Duna-Ike Space Bus the OP says "refueling permitted". Is it allowed to refuel on the surface of Duna/Ike only? Or can it refuel also in orbit?

It can be refueled in orbit (or anywhere).  :) 

As far as the EEV and DAV goes, there needs to be at least two ways for the crew to return to orbit. This is a contingency for the total loss of one method of crew return to LDO.

 

Edited by Death Engineering
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7 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

The "primary ascent vehicle" definition was left vague enough to allow for exactly that. Like the "Duna shuttle service", the intent is to provide at least two ways for the crew to return to LDO. IOW, three vehicles are not required.

Thanks for the reply.

I thought about the systems a bit, and I'd just like to have one (hopefully :) ) last question:

If the primary Duna lander is capable of making it to Ike and back, is it possible to use it to complete the "Duna shuttle service" achievement? The "Backup ascent vehicle" will be a separate vessel (meaning that the crew left on Duna will have means to get to LDO while some kerbals are on their trip to Ike). Thanks!

Michal.don

Edited by michal.don
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2 minutes ago, michal.don said:

If the primary Duna lander is capable of making it to Ike and back, is it possible to use it to complete the "Duna shuttle service" achievement? The "Backup ascent vehicle" will be a separate vessel.

Absolutely. That is the 'implied' rule.  ;) 

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So trying out some mods for the challenge. TAC-LS because why to fake life support  if you can just use the working stuff, PBS for some advanced LS functionality (and the base parts are quite the good stuff), KAS/KIS to be able to transfer supplies between vehicles...

I think I like this base for 4 crew. It even has a lab (apart from the shape it's same as the stock one), so the first expedition will have quite some research to do all around the planet.

ef3f30c8fd4f.png

Life support sustainability: water seems to be fully recirculated if you don't spend it in converters,  oxygen regeneration from CO2 is not 100% self-sufficient, but when you can pump some extra CO2 from the air - no problems with that. The only resupply needed is food, and I stuffed there more than enough to last until next window. For the future expansion it could also be possible to add a module capable of growing food (mining water and some ore required).

As shown by some "simulations", the base can survive the landing on Duna from near-Hohmann transfer (although doing it faster will end up losing the mobility part) and incidentally the wheels are OK with chute-only landing. Still need to complete launcher second stage and investigate the payload capacity, but there may be quite the option to take the satellites on the first launch as well (there's too much empty space under the belly when you wrap this base in a fairing).

 

Some other planning elements:

Space bus - Definitely an ISRU-equpped vessel. Should also double as crew transfer vehicle and refueler for any orbital operations. As a bonus, being able to refuel itself means the ability to do make suborbital hops, making any location accessible from any orbit and vice-versa.
Bonus feature: if originally launched not on window, can be used to mine some fuel from Minmus for the next group of interplanetary ships
 

Backup plan - If we really go for a mobile base, especially considering long-term stay in high latitudes (like if mining water in polar regions for the greenhouses), the best option for a rescue vehicle(s) is to be parked in polar orbit from which any surface location is accessible within a few hours. of course, that still leaves the question of how such vehicle should ascent in the case of evacuating the crew from polar area if the station/interplanetary ship is in low inclination orbit - need to have the DeltaV for such maneuver. I'll probably deploy multiple (as the base grows) such ships, each capable of recovering 4 crew (speaking of which - if the late-stage base can be split into several mostly independent rovers, most likely emergency situations would require only partial evacuation)

Duna Space Station - yeah, the question of likely high-latitude operations leaves a huge question of where to place the station - polar orbit makes huge issues with interplanetary transfers, equatorial orbit has issues with high latitudes. Probably equatorial orbit is better overall.

 

Deep space transit

24 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

LS supplies for the 'Advanced deep space transit" can be topped up in LKO, just not refueled. But, that would take away from the real benefit of the deep space transit which is crew rotation missions that use only the "free" crew shuttle; remember no supplies of any kind can transfer from the "free" crew shuttle.

Hmmm.... a huge supply stockpile in the LKO station? Yeah, that's one way it can be actually useful and one reason to dock the interplanetary craft to it!
And I think I'm totally making the transit craft in the shape of a Mk3 shuttle. Perfect option for aerobraking - both in terms of melting temperature and for aligning orbit plane with the station.
And about the "free" crew shuttle I have a total overkill issue. I have an almost free to operate (yes, 100% reusable, just strap the orbiter back on the launcher and fill the fuel) crew shuttle, but it has capacity of 36 Kerbals to Mun orbit and back. Yes, that's where I'm taking the first stage from.

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