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Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge


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36 minutes ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

Speaking of normal looking SLVs:

Is that Energia-2 booster deployable wing?

27 minutes ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

Unfortunately it does not count as reusable, as even though both stages land intact, reusability requires a propellant mass fraction of less than 0.5!!!

No, the rule states that the wet mass (that is if refilled to fuel levels those had on launch) of recovered stages should be at least 50% of total launch mass. (For example, my reusable launcher has about 75% of its liftoff mass being the RTLS first stage, but I also made the second stage reusable)

 

49 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

Anyone doing a spaceplane SLV? I have a cargo SSTO plane I was already working on before this, but with a Mk3 cargo bay the payload width is limited.

10 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Also I think @Alchemist is also using a spaceplane, strapping stuff on top of the rocket plane. No limitations of cargo bays in either case. 

Well, there still are some limitations as balancing of the payload can make takeoff problematic (even with 4 SSMEs at work) - with some payloads it has difficulty pitching up.

Technically, you can build good bases that fit in Mk3 cargo bays (especially with mods like PBS), but better find a way to deliver something bigger, if you don't want to fight the profile limitation all the time (which may be considered to much for this kind of challenge)

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10 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

Technically, you can build good bases that fit in Mk3 cargo bays (especially with mods like PBS), but better find a way to deliver something bigger, if you don't want to fight the profile limitation all the time (which may be considered to much for this kind of challenge)

I think I'm gonna mod it up for this challenge. Currently I've only used utility stuff, but all my designs to date are stock. And yeah, spaceplanes might be more limiting and all, but I like them.

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23 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

This is 302t at launch. A 39.8t payload on a liquid first stage and two SRB's followed by a non-recovered liquid stage.

yd5gDMrm.png

"Recovered launch stages must have comprised of at least 50% of the vehicles original lift-off mass (including payload)."

The recovered SRB's and the first liquid stage at launch are 187t (50% lift off mass is 151t). 

 

Quote

No, the rule states that the wet mass (that is if refilled to fuel levels those had on launch) of recovered stages should be at least 50% of total launch mass. (For example, my reusable launcher has about 75% of its liftoff mass being the RTLS first stage, but I also made the second stage reusable)

[...]

Oh, that makes much more sense. I was counting wet mass on launch and whatever propellant was left mass on recovery.

19 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

Is that Energia-2 booster deployable wing?

Yes, from Kerbal Reusability Expansion. I prefer horizontal to vertical landings in KSP, it's easier to fly them, and there's that convenient continent right near where all the boosters land anyway.

NINJA EDIT:

It flies like a brick, but it does fly:

zPGxL5V.png

Edited by Mad Rocket Scientist
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1 hour ago, sturmhauke said:

Anyone doing a spaceplane SLV? I have a cargo SSTO plane I was already working on before this, but with a Mk3 cargo bay the payload width is limited.

Yes, here. No pics yet, sorry... with any luck I'll have some after the weekend. I'm using a SXT cylindrical cargo bay, blown up to 5m diameter. That takes care of the worst bulk problems.

Despite that, I'm also using welding to combine any amount of girders and ladders into single (though unwieldy) constructs, and EPL so I can extrude them in orbit.

So, all things considered, the spaceplane doesn't offer any real benefit over simple rockets.

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3 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

Oh wow are you planning on landing 8 crew on the first window??

The "Habitation module" that I showed in the post is a module destined for the second transfer window.  As the NPM of my rocket is 45t, I can only boost 2 payloads to Duna in the first window - The fairings count for the total payload as I'm placing the requirement of aero-brakes around Duna require shrouded payloads (where as EDL doesn't as it won't incur visible re-entry heating)  

As a consequence I will definitely have to sacrifice a good portion of the 45t to propellant in the fist two modules to Duna as I won't have any IPT's available.  A DAV, some supplies (I've decided to use Ore instead of a life support, because I just don't have time to work it out, and I am familiar with ore from the last time I did this challenge), a habitation package, and a Duna orbital platform module, as well a small DSN are likely features of the first two packages.  I reckon only a crew of 4 on the first transfer window, but if I'm clever I might be able to squeeze 8 in there or more!  The plan is for 16 total on the ground in the second Duna arrival, and nearly 50 by the 4th or 5th arrival.  That's going to be a great group photo!!

SM

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6 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

As the NPM of my rocket is 45t, I can only boost 2 payloads to Duna in the first window

Are you planning some kind of high-energy non-hohmann transfers? Because if my calculations are correct, your second SLV will be ready to launch some 80 days after the planets are ideally alligned. That's why I picked 31 tons as my NPM, just to get two rockets to launch for the first window.

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54 minutes ago, michal.don said:

Are you planning some kind of high-energy non-hohmann transfers? Because if my calculations are correct, your second SLV will be ready to launch some 80 days after the planets are ideally alligned. That's why I picked 31 tons as my NPM, just to get two rockets to launch for the first window.

Hi there!  How's the shuttle challenge going :)  Yep - I'm planning some off window high energy packets to Duna around the first window at this stage. Launching at day 310 you can still get a transfer to Duna for a reasonable Ejection Δv.  I am however considering scrapping my fairing requirement, as to be honest the fairings do contribute unfairly to the weight of the module's.  A good example is the Duna Navigator and Habitation packages.  both have a weight of 35t without fairings, or 45t with fairings, which seems a little silly when I could plonk an inflatable heat shield on at a cost of 1.5t to do the same job.  This would mean I'd be able to launch module 2 on around day 250 and just scrape into the very end of the launch window.

EDIT - Bit of a redesign now occurring this weekend to shave some weight off where I can!

SM

Edited by Speeding Mullet
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30 minutes ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Hi there!  How's the shuttle challenge going :)  Yep - I'm planning some off window high energy packets to Duna around the first window at this stage. Launching at day 310 you can still get a transfer to Duna for a reasonable Ejection Δv.  I am however considering scrapping my fairing requirement, as to be honest the fairings do contribute unfairly to the weight of the module's.  A good example is the Duna Navigator and Habitation packages.  both have a weight of 35t without fairings, or 45t with fairings, which seems a little silly when I could plonk an inflatable heat shield on at a cost of 1.5t to do the same job.  This would mean I'd be able to launch module 2 on around day 250 and just scrape into the very end of the launch window.

EDIT - Bit of a redesign now occurring this weekend to shave some weight off where I can!

SM

Well, since I and most of the shuttle guys moved here for a while, the challenge is going a bit slow right now :) But I can't complain, it went just fine before DE posted this one, and will probably continue strong after we finish this one :D 

Yeah, 10t fairings seem a bit.... excessive. To be honest, I'm probably not going to bother with fairings for Duna aerobraking at all.

I'm looking forward to seeing your designs in work - I have a feeling that it will be a very impressive piece of engineering ;) 

Michal.don

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Ow, not cool..!

 

Some news on my report, I launched the second rocket but I noticed after de-docking everything that a relay antenna blew with the fairing, so I'm back in the VAB ... since 3 days XD

I may post some news tonight, SLV 02 and 03 are loaded with a huge pile of stuff. I found a way to send every module required, even the rover (32 slots) :confused:

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1 hour ago, Death Engineering said:

Did similar going to 1.4.4 and now 1.4.5?  I'll take my bouncing base and near-invisible obscured orbit markers for now.

I fixed the bouncing base with a little mod: 

Works just fine for me and removes the need to update to 1.4.5

 

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I was contemplating possible mission profiles including the ways to maintain sustainability... and ended up designing the second module, and quite a large one at that

70b100e4eb97.png

As you can probably see, Bill is not exactly impressed with the outcome of surface docking test :huh:

This module can house house 12 crew and feed 18. Deployed in proper location, the base will be almost fully independent of outside supplies. The only issue is that this module is slightly over 40 tons without the transfer stage. Meaning I'll totally need refueling infrastructure around Kerbin... I guess I might need to sacrifice one of the launches for something for Minmus (and no, the space bus doesn't qualify, it can't aerobrake into LKO without losing solar panels)

 

 

A few notes on balancing of PBS greenhouse:

  • It has crew capacity of 2 (when deployed) and requires 2 Kerbals in it for full productivity
  • it produces food for 6 Kerbals.
  • It consumes 1 Kerbal worth of CO2 and produces 1 Kerbal worth of O2
  • It also consumes 1 Kerbal worth of H2O (and you can't regenerate that, so provide adequate supply)
  • It requires 2 algae farms for fertilizer production
  • Fertilizer production consumes about 2,5 Kerbals worth of waste (with CO2 and wastewater reprocessing, taking into account the greenhouse's own CO2 consumption, 6 Kerbals worth of waste without other sources)
  • And you also need 4,32 ore per day for algae farms.
  • 1 greenhouse + 2 algae farms consume 2 RTG worth of electric power.

 

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2 hours ago, Alchemist said:

I was contemplating possible mission profiles including the ways to maintain sustainability... and ended up designing the second module, and quite a large one at that

[...]

As you can probably see, Bill is not exactly impressed with the outcome of surface docking test :huh:

This module can house house 12 crew and feed 18. Deployed in proper location, the base will be almost fully independent of outside supplies. The only issue is that this module is slightly over 40 tons without the transfer stage. Meaning I'll totally need refueling infrastructure around Kerbin... I guess I might need to sacrifice one of the launches for something for Minmus (and no, the space bus doesn't qualify, it can't aerobrake into LKO without losing solar panels)

A few notes on balancing of PBS greenhouse:

  • It has crew capacity of 2 (when deployed) and requires 2 Kerbals in it for full productivity
  • it produces food for 6 Kerbals.
  • It consumes 1 Kerbal worth of CO2 and produces 1 Kerbal worth of O2
  • It also consumes 1 Kerbal worth of H2O (and you can't regenerate that, so provide adequate supply)
  • It requires 2 algae farms for fertilizer production
  • Fertilizer production consumes about 2,5 Kerbals worth of waste (with CO2 and wastewater reprocessing, taking into account the greenhouse's own CO2 consumption, 6 Kerbals worth of waste without other sources)
  • And you also need 4,32 ore per day for algae farms.
  • 1 greenhouse + 2 algae farms consume 2 RTG worth of electric power.

Looking good! Are those PBS greenhouse stats with USI or TAC?

I'm also making a mobile base with PBS, but I'm using the KAS beta's tow hitch to connect smaller segments:

cSmjhFv.png

I'm also working on a crew launch SSTO:

VlvHCF7.png

82Qni2l.png

Luckily the OP wolfhound can compensate for my lack of SSTO building skill. This thing can do a Mun flyby with DV to spare.

(Sorry about the dark screenshots, I'm using KSP3 and still working on a config that isn't way too dark.)

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10 minutes ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

I have a question about advanced deep space transit: Does the shuttle have to land on the planets? What if it refueled in Duna orbit, then flew to Kerbin orbit, picked up its cargo, then flew back to Duna orbit?

I think it doesn't have to land :

" Advanced deep space transit: If 'Deep space transit' is scored, it must support a minimum of 5 kerbals and refuel only in Duna SOI (travels from Duna -> Kerbin -> Duna without refueling) (+3) "

That would request a kerbi-load of dV if the thing had to land and take off from Duna on top of that.

 

Also nice SSTO ! I love them myself but can't use it much on this challenge since it would be a loooot of parts when approaching from the payloads :/

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1 hour ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

I have a question about advanced deep space transit: Does the shuttle have to land on the planets? What if it refueled in Duna orbit, then flew to Kerbin orbit, picked up its cargo, then flew back to Duna orbit?

I guess it could land on the surfaces, but I'd suggest other ways.  :)

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1 minute ago, Kerbolitto said:

I think it doesn't have to land :

" Advanced deep space transit: If 'Deep space transit' is scored, it must support a minimum of 5 kerbals and refuel only in Duna SOI (travels from Duna -> Kerbin -> Duna without refueling) (+3) "

That would request a kerbi-load of dV if the thing had to land and take off from Duna on top of that.

4 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

I guess it could land on the surfaces, but I'd suggest other ways.  :)

That makes sense, thanks.

1 minute ago, Kerbolitto said:

Also nice SSTO ! I love them myself but can't use it much on this challenge since it would be a loooot of parts when approaching from the payloads :/

Thank you! I may have to give up on it if the lag gets too bad.

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How to break this challenge: do a super-massive launch on day one, deploy all hardware and ISRU the hell out of it.

Late night thought. Sorry, couldn't resist posting it.

Edited by Laie
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