Balloon into orbit

[Cheif Operations Director]

10 hours ago, Cassel said:

[snipped]
Why do you want anyone in here to tell Devs how this idea should be coded? It is their job to find best way, not ours.

Balloons are simple, if you deploy one it should go up, both in physics bubble and while you are in time warp mode.
Height limit for balloon should be pressure inside vs pressure outside, this can be calculated while you are in physics mode, so even if you hit time warp balloon will "autopilot" (like rocket with huge speed, it goes up even if you abandon mission) to that height and stay there until you change pressure (pump more helium or drop gas from balloon).

If we would have small balloons that would be bouncy and hard to break we could use them as CST-100 does or we could even use them for submarines to change buoyancy.

Indeed the only stipulation would be that the ballons would "float" one the pressure is equal. I would not want them to pop on me 

[Cassel]

8 hours ago, Snark said:

Well, sure... but so would having a jet engine that can burn Eve's atmosphere.  Eve's hard because the designers of the stock game wanted it to be-- that's kind of the point.  Providing a way to make it easier would defeat that purpose.

They wanted this to be hard for rockets, but in reality Venus/Eve is perfect place for balloons.

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, Cassel said:

They wanted this to be hard for rockets, but in reality Venus/Eve is perfect place for balloons.

Jool is also a good place

My main reason I want these is so I can create science ballons and airborne airports on eve

[Blaarkies]

10 hours ago, Cassel said:

[snipped]

Why do you want anyone in here to tell Devs how this idea should be coded? It is their job to find best way, not ours.

Balloons are simple, if you deploy one it should go up, both in physics bubble and while you are in time warp mode.
Height limit for balloon should be pressure inside vs pressure outside, this can be calculated while you are in physics mode, so even if you hit time warp balloon will "autopilot" (like rocket with huge speed, it goes up even if you abandon mission) to that height and stay there until you change pressure (pump more helium or drop gas from balloon).

If we would have small balloons that would be bouncy and hard to break we could use them as CST-100 does or we could even use them for submarines to change buoyancy.
 

This is not my opinion, this is objective stats from any mod hosting service, like CKAN. Look at the downloads for balloon mods, now compare that to the amount of downloads to mods that add new parts...it seems more players like new rocket parts than they like balloons. The balloon mod posted here is not a bad mod at all, it is quite good and deserve more downloads...but players seem to prefer rockets instead.

Opinion would be saying that people don't like balloons because this thread about balloons has a bad rating. I don't know for sure if they are downvoting this thread because they want to show their dislike for balloons, or they dislike the contents of this thread, therefor I will not state that as fact because it would be merely speculation.

I have never stated how it should be coded. Instead I posed questions we need answers for before this concept will ever be a stable feature in any game, questions that still don't have answers for on this thread. I showed that the problem is much more difficult than anticipated, and would like constructive criticism. [snipped]
Before claiming balloons are simple, provide an equation to describe where a balloon should be at any point in time (like what KSP uses to describe a rockets position at any point in time). Without this, you cannot magically timewarp without major issues in gameplay.

[snipped]. They are actual people you know 

Edited August 1, 2018 by goldenpeach
redacted by moderation

[Cassel]

10 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

This is not my opinion, this is objective stats from any mod hosting service, like CKAN. Look at the downloads for balloon mods, now compare that to the amount of downloads to mods that add new parts...it seems more players like new rocket parts than they like balloons. The balloon mod posted here is not a bad mod at all, it is quite good and deserve more downloads...but players seem to prefer rockets instead.

Opinion would be saying that people don't like balloons because this thread about balloons has a bad rating. I don't know for sure if they are downvoting this thread because they want to show their dislike for balloons, or they dislike the contents of this thread, therefor I will not state that as fact because it would be merely speculation.

I have never stated how it should be coded. Instead I posed questions we need answers for before this concept will ever be a stable feature in any game, questions that still don't have answers for on this thread. I showed that the problem is much more difficult than anticipated, and would like constructive criticism. [snipped]

Before claiming balloons are simple, provide an equation to describe where a balloon should be at any point in time (like what KSP uses to describe a rockets position at any point in time). Without this, you cannot magically timewarp without major issues in gameplay.

[snipped] They are actual people you know 

This is just an opinion and it is very subjective. There is no quality comparison.

The game also lacks a mechanism that would allow the balloon to reach the altitude limit I wrote about.

Your assumptions about the concept and required questions are wrong. It's developers who decide on such things and how best to show them in the game.

[snipped]

I am referring to the subject, and the fact that someone subjectively believes that this is not a useful addition, does means he needs to speak here. He can go to complain somewhere else.
Claiming that the game does not need it does not help to improve this idea at all. If you do not like it, you do not have to use the balloons in the game.

[snipped]

Edited August 1, 2018 by goldenpeach
redacted by moderation

[Snark]

13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

A jet engine  the outside air to combust yes?

Yup.  That's what those mods add:  jet engines that work on places like Eve.  They introduce new resources ("Karbonite" or "Kethane", for the two mods I mention), which, unlike LiquidFuel, can combust by reacting with non-oxygenated atmospheres.  The gameplay mechanic is exactly the same as for KSP jet engines:  they require an intake in order to work, they only function in atmosphere, and they have Isp much higher than a rocket engine.

13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

This requires oxygen

Sure, if the thing you're burning is something that needs oxygen in order to react with.  For example, LiquidFuel.  That won't work anywhere but Kerbin or Laythe, because those are the only bodies in KSP that have atmospheres that LiquidFuel can react with.

But if the thing you're "burning" is something different, it may have some other chemical reaction that uses some other atmospheric reagent besides oxygen.

13 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

if eve or etc has none then their is no way for a jet engine to work on eve.

Correct-- for the stock engines, of course, which burn LiquidFuel.  And therefore, for game-balance reasons, don't work on Eve.

But these mods add a different resource ("Karbonite" and "Kethane") which does react with those non-oxygenated atmospheres.

It works great.    I've tried out both of these mods, and had fun building an Eve ascent vehicle that was smaller and lighter because of the jet engines.  But I only did it briefly, for variety-- precisely because they made Eve too easy for my tastes.  Which is why I'm glad that those engines are in a mod, rather than in the stock game.

Things that significantly impact game balance really need to be thought through carefully before they're added to the stock game.  Non-oxygenated jet engines are one such example.  Futuristic things like fusion drives are another.  Balloons are yet another.  Game balance is super important and easily broken.  That's why, in general, I tend to be in favor of leaving game-balance-altering features such as these to mods.

 

9 hours ago, Cassel said:

They wanted this to be hard for rockets, but in reality Venus/Eve is perfect place for balloons.

Well, actually, I rather suspect that they wanted Eve to be hard for players.  Thus the game-balance thing.

(If they only wanted it to be hard for rockets they could have given Eve an oxygenated atmosphere where jet engines work, after all.)

Sure, balloons would make that a lot easier.  But for players like me, that would be a bug, not a feature-- I like the gameplay the way it is.  I'd much rather see Squad spending time on other features instead.

 

[Blaarkies]

4 hours ago, Cassel said:

This is just an opinion and it is very subjective. There is no quality comparison.

The game also lacks a mechanism that would allow the balloon to reach the altitude limit I wrote about.

Your assumptions about the concept and required questions are wrong. It's developers who decide on such things and how best to show them in the game.

[snipped]

I am referring to the subject, and the fact that someone subjectively believes that this is not a useful addition, does means he needs to speak here. He can go to complain somewhere else.
Claiming that the game does not need it does not help to improve this idea at all. If you do not like it, you do not have to use the balloons in the game.
[snipped]

The simple mechanism doesn't account for edge cases, that is the point i am trying to get across to you. Software development takes a lot more effort than it seems, but constructive criticism like me and @Snark [snipped] are giving makes that much easier. This thread alone is already worth a few days of planning that any dev would go through to catch these issues before the code is even implemented, that is really helpful. Trying to silence any "opposition" does not help the cause at all, neither does incomplete "simple mechanisms".

I want the game to be all that it could ever be, but balloons in stock won't be a great feature if it is rushed and "simply" implemented. It must be thought through and put up to the test like everything else in the current game to match the quality of the rest of the game, and the community threads help more than you might think. I know the rigors that SQUAD go through every time some bugs show up after release, and I applaud them for always fixing those and appreciate the 4 major updates I have gotten even after my paid for v1 was announced.

So please, help answer the edge cases I posted to help in the possible development for this instead of doing what I already mentioned:

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by goldenpeach
redacted by moderation

[DoctorDavinci]

1 hour ago, Blaarkies said:

The simple mechanism doesn't account for edge cases, that is the point i am trying to get across to you. Software development takes a lot more effort than it seems, but constructive criticism like me and @Snark [snipped] are giving makes that much easier. This thread alone is already worth a few days of planning that any dev would go through to catch these issues before the code is even implemented, that is really helpful. Trying to silence any "opposition" does not help the cause at all, neither does incomplete "simple mechanisms".

I want the game to be all that it could ever be, but balloons in stock won't be a great feature if it is rushed and "simply" implemented. It must be thought through and put up to the test like everything else in the current game to match the quality of the rest of the game, and the community threads help more than you might think. I know the rigors that SQUAD go through every time some bugs show up after release, and I applaud them for always fixing those and appreciate the 4 major updates I have gotten even after my paid for v1 was announced.

So please, help answer the edge cases I posted to help in the possible development for this instead of doing what I already mentioned:

 

So as stated earlier in the thread, writing the code for this would be fairly easy ... as a matter of fact I already have most if not all the pieces needed to do this in mods I created let alone other mods that are out there

Overthinking leads to feature creep .... feature creep leads to a mod never being released due to an 'idea' guy constantly trying to push the envelope of what can be done

Been there done that ... I'd rather see constructive application of a balloon mod, not arguments over edge cases as when in development you code and test instead of just discuss

Less talk, more action

 

[goldenpeach]

As you may have noticed, a few posts have been edited or hidden. Please discuss the subject of the thread rather than the posters participating in the conversation; attacking the persons will not advance the discussion and will only create an unpleasant experience for everyone.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Overthinking leads to feature creep .... feature creep leads to a mod never being released due to an 'idea' guy constantly trying to push the envelope of what can be done

 

Agreed, but just spending a bit of time thinking the entire process through is usually a good idea.

Just going ahead and implementing an idea usually isn't good.  First, sometimes adding additional features, or just fleshing out existing ones may conflict with existing code.  Second, those pesky edge cases are always a problem.  Now, no one expects every edge case to be found beforehand, but, the more you can cover in advance with a bit of thinking, the better the user experience will be when using the mod

[DoctorDavinci]

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Just going ahead and implementing an idea usually isn't good

Well in my case so far everything that I've just gone ahead and developed turned out to work as advertised on the tin and each of my mods were literally done by the seat of my pants .... developing code isn't as complicated as one may think

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Well in my case so far everything that I've just gone ahead and developed turned out to work as advertised on the tin and each of my mods were literally done by the seat of my pants .... developing code isn't as complicated as one may think

 If that was so, then why do you have a bug fix coming up from my do you just released. The Mr. Clean mod, which you just released, and sounds interesting, seems to have some bugs. This is what I'm talking about. Not having looked at the code, it is possible that if some additional thought and development had been put into it those bugs would not have so another. 

Even if you had, then this simply goes to so that software development is not as simple as you made it out to be.

 This is not a personal attack, simply pointing out that software development is not as simple as it sounds like.

Edited August 1, 2018 by linuxgurugamer

[Vanamonde]

In summation, some people would like balloons in KSP, and others would prefer to punch each other in the face. Having settled that, let's move on, please.