Eve Biome Hopper

[jinnantonix]

Eve is difficult.  The biggest challenge in KSP.  I am setting myself a mission to send a Kerbal scientist to collect all science from all biomes (including all water biomes) on Eve with a single launch craft, and return the science to Kerbin.  I am thinking the mission would include an amphibious biome hopper that can collect all the science, a separate launch vehicle that can get the Kerbal scientist to Eve orbit, and a mothership to transfer from Kerbin to Eve and back to Kerbin - all from a single launch.  The challenge is designing the amphibious hopper.  Can it be done?

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by jinnantonix

[Marschig]

А year ago I did this mobile launchpad: https://imgur.com/a/odukC

It can move through surface biomes and gently touch shallow water

More videos (Launch, Land, Return):

Spoiler

 

 

[Kerbolitto]

So what are you requiring ? A boat with suborbital capabilities + science exp. ?

[qzgy]

I would suggest a rocket powered or rtg electrical propeller sea plane. Having a traditional suborbital hopper for Eve would be more trouble than it's really worth. The plane might allow you to go farther on less fuel and have more controllable landings. 

[Human Person]

Yes, I would also go with an ISRU capable, rocket powered plane. For water biomes, try to land very close to land so you can reach it for mining.

I would also advise you to use Aerospike engines for propulsion, they have by far the highest ISP in the dense atmosphere of Eve. Or try to use high thrust engines like Vectors to gain altitude quickly and then glide over relatively long distances with empty tanks.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Human Person

[jinnantonix]

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the feedback

I am avoiding anything with wheels, (eg rovers, mobile launch pads etc) , though I am sure they work, it would be too slow and tedious in gameplay.  I also discovered that rovers make very bad amphious craft due to friction on Eve's water biomes.  Any rough surfaces, and the rover sticks like glue.

Agree that the best solutions would be

1. Electric prop powered ultra light sea plane (if only I could figure out how to make the prop work, can anyone share a .craft file with me, please?)
2. Liq+Ox fuelled jet / glider with small ISRU and using aerospikes.  Needs to be able to float like a boat and move reasonably fast over water using the jets.

The seaplane idea is probably the most elegant, it certainly solves the water biome problem.  But I think the machine would probably be very slow in Eve's atmosphere, so may be as tedious in gameplay as a rover.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

I have a working jet that has a range on Eve of 40km (see below).  It flies and glides beautifully on Eve and Kerbin, still working on ways to increase the range - more lift and fuel, less drag.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by jinnantonix

[Kerbolitto]

10 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the feedback

I am avoiding anything with wheels, (eg rovers, mobile launch pads etc) , though I am sure they work, it would be too slow and tedious in gameplay.  I also discovered that rovers make very bad amphious craft due to friction on Eve's water biomes.  Any rough surfaces, and the rover sticks like glue.

Agree that the best solutions would be

1. Electric prop powered ultra light sea plane (if only I could figure out how to make the prop work, can anyone share a .craft file with me, please?)
2. Liq+Ox fuelled jet / glider with small ISRU and using aerospikes.  Needs to be able to float like a boat and move reasonably fast over water using the jets.

The seaplane idea is probably the most elegant, it certainly solves the water biome problem.  But I think the machine would probably be very slow in Eve's atmosphere, so may be as tedious in gameplay as a rover.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

I have a working jet that has a range on Eve of 40km (see below).  It flies and glides beautifully on Eve and Kerbin, still working on ways to increase the range - more lift and fuel, less drag.

Maybe you can go with 1.25 / 2.5m wide instead of Mk2 fuselage ? You may have a better l/d ratio and avoid the heavy mk2 cockpit.

[jinnantonix]

Thanks KerboLitto.  Can you please clarify what you mean by 1.25/2.5m wide?  Do you mean same profile as the two wind nacelles?  If no cockpit, then are you suggesting the scientist and engineer are sitting on EAS-1 seats?  

[Kerbolitto]

7 minutes ago, jinnantonix said:

Thanks KerboLitto.  Can you please clarify what you mean by 1.25/2.5m wide?  Do you mean same profile as the two wind nacelles?  If no cockpit, then are you suggesting the scientist and engineer are sitting on EAS-1 seats?  

I meant that you may use FL or Rockomax parts which procudes no lift and less drag than Mk2 parts, and are a tiny bit lighter (Small ISRU is 1.25m wide and heavy is 2.5 for example.). Maybe your design has enough lift in Eve's atmosphere with just those 4 wings?

You can also use 1 Mk1 cockpit + Mk1 crew cabin, with pilot / engineer / scientist which weight the same as Mk2 cockpit, and so you won't need a remote control (relay sat) to pilot the ship.

Just some ideas ! :p

[jinnantonix]

OK I understand now.  My first jet hopper actually used all 1.25m parts , but I had a lot of trouble placing components like drills, ore tanks, heat dissipators etc. without impacting on drag.  The Mk2 components were only a little heavier,  and added lift to compensate.  The Mk2 cargo bays are very useful for enclosing the ISRU and science components, and I could also put a EAS-1 seat in there as well for my scientist - oh yes, and the cargo bays look cool.

[jinnantonix]

I added some length and fuel, and two more wings and range increased to 55km.  Flies and glides like a dream, almost floats on Eve's lower atmosphere.  Also floats on Explodium like a boat, and I can get reasonable speeds using the jets  I think this might be good enough.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by jinnantonix

[Pds314]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:21 PM, jinnantonix said:

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the feedback

I am avoiding anything with wheels, (eg rovers, mobile launch pads etc) , though I am sure they work, it would be too slow and tedious in gameplay.  I also discovered that rovers make very bad amphious craft due to friction on Eve's water biomes.  Any rough surfaces, and the rover sticks like glue.

Agree that the best solutions would be

1. Electric prop powered ultra light sea plane (if only I could figure out how to make the prop work, can anyone share a .craft file with me, please?)
2. Liq+Ox fuelled jet / glider with small ISRU and using aerospikes.  Needs to be able to float like a boat and move reasonably fast over water using the jets.

The seaplane idea is probably the most elegant, it certainly solves the water biome problem.  But I think the machine would probably be very slow in Eve's atmosphere, so may be as tedious in gameplay as a rover.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

I have a working jet that has a range on Eve of 40km (see below).  It flies and glides beautifully on Eve and Kerbin, still working on ways to increase the range - more lift and fuel, less drag.

 

 

Il upload a light prop plane when I get home. Something like a Cessna 172.

Obviously for Eve you'll want something with pretty small wings and a nice sleek design with lots of thrust so it can fly fast at low altitude.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Little 2-tonne 4-passenger prop plane with open cockpit. Nice and aerobatic too. Not high performance, mind you. The engine and prop are almost double the mass of a Juno but at 50 m/s provide just 6.2 kN of thrust. Still, no need for fuel is a big plus.

In case anyone wants to dissect it for bearings or send it to Eve or something.


Note: flight instructions are in the description. Also remember that these are for Kerbin and it can't be controlled forever without a pilot or infinite electricity. There are no electricity generators on the main craft.

https://kerbalx.com/pds314/Miniflight-M-3

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[Pds314]

I need to sleep but perhaps tomorrow I will make an amphibious plane that can descend into Eve behind a heat shield.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[jinnantonix]

Thanks PDS.  I clicked on your craft but it gives a 404 not found error.  All the craft in KerbalX seem to be incompatible with my version of KSP (v1.3.1).

[Pds314]

2 minutes ago, jinnantonix said:

Thanks PDS.  I clicked on your craft but it gives a 404 not found error.  All the craft in KerbalX seem to be incompatible with my version of KSP (v1.3.1).

Well yes it's a 1.4.5 craft

But here is a better link to try.

https://kerbalx.com/pds314/Miniflight-M-3

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[Pds314]

I think I will also try to increase the power enough to make something that can do >100 m/s at Eve sealevel. Because honestly I'd rather have a 10 tonne plane going 120 than a 2-tonne plane that would probably not surpass 45. Further still, adding a more powerful engine should drastically increase climb rate, allowing you to escape the soupy sealevel air quickly.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[jinnantonix]

I am upgrading now to v1.4.5, and will try your link.  I think the engine needs to be very powerful to push through the Eve atmosphere.  I think power would need to be from solar, as RTGs would be two heavy on Eve, and you wouldn't want to fly at night anyway.  solar panels would probably add drag.  It will be interesting to R&D this, not sure electric prop is the way to go yet.

[Pds314]

6 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

I am upgrading now to v1.4.5, and will try your link.  I think the engine needs to be very powerful to push through the Eve atmosphere.  I think power would need to be from solar, as RTGs would be two heavy on Eve, and you wouldn't want to fly at night anyway.  solar panels would probably add drag.  It will be interesting to R&D this, not sure electric prop is the way to go yet.

They do fine on Kerbin. I have a boat with an electric,  RTG-powered fan for propulsion. For 7.7 tonnes of prop and wheels and RTGs it gets 450 kN static thrust. And 380 at 35 m/s.

The more compact designs aren't THAT impressive but even still, you can probably make an Eve-capable tailsitter or helicopter without TOO much fuss.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pds314

[jinnantonix]

I tried this lightweight unmanned configuration.  It only got to 30m/s on the runway, not even close to getting off the ground.  I think electric props may not have the power to get any speed in the Eve atmosphere.

 

Update:  I am confident it is possible to develop a fast plane for Eve (see below), thinking 50-75 m/s is possible.  Faster than that is hard in Eve's thick atmosphere,  But e- props seem very fragile, can they last for 15 + landings on Eve?  Though I haven't tested this I doubt they can land on Eve water biomes, and would need to enter the water at the shore same as the jet.  Finally the big issue - e- props don't support warp! - this is a big issue because it means a lot of game time to cover the 2000km of Eve's surface.  I am still experimenting, but with warp the jet can do a 60km hop in just a few minutes of game time, vs 20 minutes (at 50m/s, no warp).

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by jinnantonix

[jinnantonix]

This looks like a good way of using an e- prop on Eve.  How fast is this vehicle travelling?  I think it took a lot of patience to complete the game time.

 

[jinnantonix]

I just  discovered someone has already had a go at this challenge, though with multiple launches.  Wow, this guy spent some game time on this, driving a rover around Eve at 25m/s with no warp.  [yawn].  

 

[jinnantonix]

The above rover designs don't actually meet with my requirements for a "hopper" which can collect all the science data for a number of biomes as per this check list http://ttdpatch.net/~jdrexler/ksp/science/KSP Science Checklist.pdf . 

I am thinking of issuing a mission idea "Eve Science Challenge" would specify a minimum number of biomes, with a mandatory requirement for collecting all available science including: 

• Gravity data at > 400km altitude
• EVA Report and gravity data at > 90km altitude
• Atmospheric data for >22km altitude and flying low
• Temperature, crew report and EVA report for flying low
• Materials bay, mystery goo, gravity temperature, pressure, seismic, surface sample, EVA report on surface

A mission design that can achieve the above can probably also collect all science from all biomes on Eve, but I would not expect too many folk have the patience for the many hours of game time required to hop to all 15 x biomes.  So I think 3 x land biomes and 3 x water biomes is a good minimum requirement.

[Laie]

On 8/23/2018 at 2:40 PM, jinnantonix said:

Can it be done?

Will mods be OK? because frankly, if I'm to visit every single biome on Eve, I certainly wouldn't do it with stock means. I'd rather use Bon Voyage for automated roving, or actual electric propellers. I hear that Eve is *the* place for dirigibles...

[jinnantonix]

I would argue that anything can be done if you add mods, so then it really isn't a challenge.  On the other hand it would be just too boring to expect anyone to drive a rover to visit 15 biomes on Eve. 

What I think may work as a challenge is to limit the number of biomes to 3 x land and 3 x water, collecting data for surface and flying low.  Anyone who can do that will likely be able to do all 15 biomes and all situations, and so meets the proposed challenge .  Automated piloting like MechJeb is OK, this is about mission and craft design, it isn't about piloting or driving skills.  I know some just love to play with mod parts, so the challenge should have two leaderboards, one for stock (the real challenge) and one for mods (for fun).  

So in short, anything that uses stock parts and automated driving would be OK for the stock leaderboard.  I am not familiar with Bon Voyage, but I think an amphibious hopping rover with BV parts would certainly satisfy the requirements for the mod leaderboard, as would mod electric props and dirigibles.

Edit:   From what I can see, BV can be used as an automated driver for stock rovers.  In that case,  BV would be OK for a stock submission.  The challenge is to make the rover hop.

Edited September 10, 2018 by jinnantonix