KSP Weekly: Closer to Bennu

[panzer1b]

3 minutes ago, MR L A said:

Never seen a weekly get this slated before... but having read all the comments, I think they’re pretty reasonable with their arguments.

It seems strange to me that modders have done a much better job with textures for free than the people that are getting paid to do so... maybe the team at squad should concentrate on killing bugs and let the community do the parts/textures. Hell, I’d be all in favour of squad turning to a modder like Ven and saying “here’s X amount of money, your modded textures are now stock, thanks”

Yeah, i prolly shouldnt be quite as negative as i am now towards the revamp efforts (they are still WAY better then what we have in game now as legacy parts), but i just really like this game and i want the devs to put in the effort that is required to make this game as beautiful as porkjet started working towards.  That and we were all spoiled by porkjet that did a phenomenal job at textures and models alike, so while i know that he wont be working on KSP (and for some dumb reason the parts he did make never were officially integrated with the game), its sorta a standard that i expect to come out of all future parts released for the game.  Hell, even some of roverdude's work is really really good even though his style is a tad different from porkjet's.  The IRSU gear has good specular maps, im pretty sure roverdude worked on those, and they came out really nice in game (even though there is still a offcenter bug with one of the smaller IRSUs).

[MR L A]

6 minutes ago, panzer1b said:

but i just really like this game and i want the devs to put in the effort that is required to make this game as beautiful as porkjet started working towards.

This. 

[passinglurker]

2 hours ago, panzer1b said:

(only thing ive ever used 3d model wise in videogames was blender, and i cant really edit stock models with that)

Actually you can ex-dev @taniwha has you covered.

 

 

 

[Saltshaker]

2 hours ago, MR L A said:

Never seen a weekly get this slated before... but having read all the comments, I think they’re pretty reasonable with their arguments.

It seems strange to me that modders have done a much better job with textures for free than the people that are getting paid to do so... maybe the team at squad should concentrate on killing bugs and let the community do the parts/textures. Hell, I’d be all in favour of squad turning to a modder like Ven and saying “here’s X amount of money, your modded textures are now stock, thanks”

I believe SQUAD has already tried that, as with Porkjet's attempted part revamp. Besides, as much as we may disparage him, Roverdude was an unpaid, community modder at one point. Thankfully, as shown in the Ultima Thule thread there are community members working to improve the games art for free; it might be a good idea to show them some monetary support.

[Deddly]

Does anyone remember what we were talking about a few weeks ago re: constructive criticism? Like @MR L A says above, most of you are making some really good points, but it would be rather a shame if they are missed by the people who matter. We need to learn to make our points without coming across with a superior attitude if we want the devs to listen to us.

Constructive criticism = make the same point whilst building the person up instead of dragging the person down.

[Delay]

2 hours ago, Deddly said:

Does anyone remember what we were talking about a few weeks ago re: constructive criticism?

While I do agree fully I can understand why people stopped taking the nice route and went provocative instead. Squad had enough time to consider and assess these pretty simple changes (and fixes) and they're doing absolutely nothing about it.

[Poodmund]

3 hours ago, Deddly said:

Constructive criticism = make the same point whilst building the person up instead of dragging the person down.

I'm sorry but as someone who was involved in the design sector who has taken and given a fair share of criticism over time this is absolutely not what 'Constructive Criticism' is at all. By and large, the term 'Constructive Criticism' is just something people use to try and not come across as harsh but, at the end of the day, criticism is what matters here.

Constructive Criticism can been viewed as, "a set of instructions or feedback that aims to collaboratively improve the overall quality of a product or service. Often containing helpful and specific suggestions for positive change, constructive criticism is highly focused on a particular issue or set of issues, as opposed to providing general feedback on the item or organization as a whole."

So! Criticism is just, "that sucks." Constructive Criticism is, "that sucks because the design simple and is being band-aided with rudimentary techniques because your competency levels for this are not high enough". Now that's a brutal statement to make about something but it's still constructive as it highlights shortcomings and, albeit backhandedly, presents areas for the designer to improve on and work forward.

What I think you have may misjudged is that pampering the designer is a part of 'Constructive Criticism' which ultimately does not help them in the long run. It may be a short ego boost and is prevalent on the internet (especially in the KSP Modding environment) where people will post screenshots of WIP work and others will comment, "looks great," "fantastic" or "awesome" but that is just as unhelpful feedback to the designer as "that sucks" as there is no focused area of feedback.

All in all, unfortunately, the design sector is a very harsh environment and you learn to get a tough skin and value 'negative' critique just as highly as 'positive' critique. In a lot of cases it's actually more helpful. I have personally bad mouthed some very specific areas of great KSP artists models/textures but these people reacted in the following way, " Okay, I see where you're coming from, it probably could do with more work, thanks." That's the attitude you have to live with which kinda sucks on one hand but gives you immediate, focused feedback to drive on and improve your work and skillset as a professional.

To conclude, wishy-washy, postive pampering of feedback doesn't actually help and holds back your development as a professional.

P.S. This was no more evident than in Ven's source files for his stock revamp where a long rant was included in a text file slating the mod consumer community only ever spurting out hollow, positive comments on the models and textures that gave almost no constructive feedback and eventually led to the mod creators increased frustration.

P.P.S On a personal note, there is and has been a lot of good feedback on the parts displayed over the last few weeks wrapped in positive and negative comments. It is the designers prerogative to filter the underlying message and indetified areas out to further improve their work. As a design professional, this should be bread and butter stuff.

[Deddly]

 

Whether or not a professional should listen regardless of the tone that criticism is given in, humans are human beings with feelings that affect them, for better or worse. This is an objective fact. Do with it what you will

(As a side-effect, keeping things friendly makes the forum a nicer place than the rest of the internet. Isn't that what this place is all about?)

Edited September 3, 2018 by Deddly

[passinglurker]

11 minutes ago, Deddly said:

(As a side-effect, keeping things friendly makes the forum a nicer place than the rest of the internet. Isn't that what this place is all about?)

This sounds like something out of "we happy few" you're asking us to force a smile to avoid raising a fuss.

Well forget that the game is complete enough and the modding community large enough that Squad can either do the job right or they can just quit :p. we don't need them anymore and would arguably be better off without them if this is the general level of passion, quality, and attention to detail they are going to put into their work.

You might as well get used to the fact that the positivity of critics is tired directly to the quality of squads previews and releases therefore it is squad making the forums a nasty place by pushing this garbage as stock. 

[Deddly]

5 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

you're asking us to force a smile to avoid raising a fuss.

If this is what you think I'm saying, then I must have been phrasing it extremely poorly. I will try harder in the future.

[HebaruSan]

I just wish we could have the substance of the critiques without this sort of stuff:

On 9/1/2018 at 1:22 AM, passinglurker said:

you'll send this straight back to the art team and tell them to try again

all you did was just

I'm going to have to again insist that you show texture sheets to prove you're actually optimizing the art, and not just cutting corners and lying to us about it again.

this went terribly the last time you did it

it's an extremely lazy looking thing to do

Second this is just depressing you call this an "update"?

this is RUD'ing middle school photoshop.

this doesn't pass scrutiny not even close.

First because its just plane bad and lazy

this is another bad habit you guy's just won't let go of

clearly I see now that cutting you slack was a mistake...

Frankly I find this stuff a downer to read, and I'm just a player; imagine if it was you being called bad and extremely lazy and a liar. This is what people object to, not pointing out problems. Contrary to what's been implied in subsequent replies, none of the quoted text here is making a critique, because I deleted all the text that referenced specific flaws or suggestions. The remaining unnecessarily hostile language could simply have been left out, and the critique would be no less valuable (and either no one or far fewer readers would object). So why is it there? Maybe the author is too lazy to go back and edit what he's written for tone, or maybe he's not thoughtful enough to understand why it matters.

You have no clue what goes on behind the scenes beyond what you can piece together from the publicly presented screenshots, and you aren't the arbiter of what goes in the game (I have no idea why you think they'll show some rando on the internet their unreleased texture sheets just because you demand it---do you also expect them to wait for your sign-off before they ship the update?). Please remind yourself of those two things before you click Submit Reply on your next wall of text.

[Delay]

2 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Frankly I find this stuff a downer to read

If I were to take things out of context too I bet I could understand that.

[Deddly]

4 minutes ago, Delay said:

If I were to take things out of context too I bet I could understand that.

His point was that removing those parts greatly increases the quality of the critique, and he has hit the nail exactly on the head.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Deddly

[HebaruSan]

7 minutes ago, Delay said:

If I were to take things out of context too I bet I could understand that.

Click the arrow in the upper right corner of the quote block for the full context, as always. None of my deletions changed the apparent meaning of the quoted text. (That's what "out of context" usually means when it's used as a criticism.)

[Mako]

27 minutes ago, Deddly said:

His point was that removing those parts greatly increases the quality of the critique, and he has hit the nail exactly on the head.

I don't think it increases the quality of the critique in the slightest. It does make the tone on the critique less offensive, and there is probably merit in that, but "nice" criticism is not inherently more correct or valid than "mean" criticism.

The frustration exhibited by the tone of some posts is understandable, and also isn't helpful in and of itself. The criticism being offered however, regardless of tone, seems to me to be accurate in its assessments of the quality of work being shown.

And no matter how nice you try to make the phrase "Your work is objectively unacceptable," it will always be a hard thing to hear. We can try to be as nice as possible, but the truth isn't always so kind. A person who cares about the work they do will likely be some amount of hurt hearing this (as you said, we're all human with feelings), but will hopefully see past their feelings as they realize how they can improve what they do.

We often learn more from our mistakes than from our successes, and in this it helps to have someone point out our mistakes and suggest ways to correct or avoid these problems.

Humans with feelings will, however, eventually give up -- no matter how much they care -- when met with enough negativity. It is not a great reaction, but it is an understandable, and I'd bet near 100% relatable, reaction. It seems like there is and growing number of folks who would not be opposed to this outcome, so try as anyone might, the tone may persist because being nice would encourage rather than discourage further development.

[StarStreak2109]

If a modder makes something for a mid I feel passionate about and I don't like it, I will tell him/her "I don't like your new part / mod / whatever, because..."

If Squad tease whatever it is they are working on, and I don't like it, I will tell them likewise.

Same goes vice versa if I like what they do.

if that is construed as negativity, then we should ask ourselves, why we're here for. I am definitely not here for blind fanboyism. If Squad respectively Squad staff cannot take criticism, than IMHO they should think about a career change.

I get it that some remarks recently may have been a bit snappy, but that's just how it happens if people feel passionate about something.

[Dman979]

Guys, I know this is a topic that many people are passionate about, but it is not appropriate to bring profanity into the discussion. Please keep the thread civil.

Some posts have been removed.

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, Mako said:

...It does make the tone on the critique less offensive...

Is that not in itself a worthwhile goal? That was my only point.

 

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Humans with feelings will, however, eventually give up -- no matter how much they care -- when met with enough negativity.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean.

 

1 hour ago, Mako said:

It seems like there is and growing number of folks who would not be opposed to this outcome, so try as anyone might, the tone may persist because being nice would encourage rather than discourage further development.

Well, that's just playing dirty. If they don't want more development, they should take whichever version of the game they prefer and be happy with it. If the intention is to stop development by overwhelming the devs with negativity, 1) it won't work, it will just make them ignore the person/thread; and 2) those of us who appreciate continued development will not be impressed with such tactics on the official forum.

 

45 minutes ago, StarStreak2109 said:

If a modder makes something for a mid I feel passionate about and I don't like it, I will tell him/her "I don't like your new part / mod / whatever, because..."

That sounds fine to me. But you would never tell a modder "You're just being lazy, I demand this and that", would you? And you wouldn't word it in such a way that would make the person feel bad, would you?

Edited September 3, 2018 by Deddly

[passinglurker]

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

I just wish we could have the substance of the critiques without this sort of stuff:

And I wish every time squad shows a subpar preview that we can raise attention to it without some deflecting into a philosophical discussion on positivity vs negativity. We tell them its good or bad we tell them why its good or bad that is constructive criticism and that should be enough for anyone.
 

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Frankly I find this stuff a downer to read

Oh cry me a river you know what else is a downer to read? Squad's corner cutting updates I'm not gonna stop as long as they shovel out utter krap. You want positivity? Then you hold squad to standards so they produce something to be positive about.
 

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

imagine if it was you being called bad and extremely lazy and a liar.

I said the work came across as lazy, not that the artists are actually lazy. It's not exactly lazy to mass produce quantity over quality krap all day every day full time for example.
 

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

This is what people object to, not pointing out problems. Contrary to what's been implied in subsequent replies, none of the quoted text here is making a critique, because I deleted all the text that referenced specific flaws or suggestions.

So you admit to taking what I said out of context.

 

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

So why is it there? Maybe the author is too lazy to go back and edit what he's written for tone, or maybe he's not thoughtful enough to understand why it matters.

Now this is an actual personal attack I outright refuse to police my tone beyond what's needed to follow forum rules. I instead speak honestly I am "positive" when squad does something that warrants it, and I'm "negative" when squad does something to deserve it my history speaks for itself in this regard. Deal with it.
 

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

You have no clue what goes on behind the scenes beyond what you can piece together from the publicly presented screenshots, and you aren't the arbiter of what goes in the game (I have no idea why you think they'll show some rando on the internet their unreleased texture sheets just because you demand it---do you also expect them to wait for your sign-off before they ship the update?). Please remind yourself of those two things before you click Submit Reply on your next wall of text.

They are the ones saying "we're optimizing the art and making it more efficient and pretty! get hype!" so they can RUD'ing prove it. I actually know what goes into making a part for ksp and what happens when you try to cut corners and salvage old assets from personal experience so I have more of a clue than you(self admitted "only a player"). Why do you think I want to see thier sheets? cause unlike you I can tell what's going on by looking at them though honestly I expect most people would too when it happens.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by passinglurker

[Delay]

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

You have no clue what goes on behind the scenes beyond what you can piece together from the publicly presented screenshots

"You have no clue (=no own experience), therefore your opinion is false." Correct?

You can have an opinion without knowing anything about the amount of work that went into it. I don't know anything about that work either. But I can still say "Hey, this doesn't look right, please revisit it" and demand it to be respected and accepted as valid critique.

[StarStreak2109]

54 minutes ago, Deddly said:

That sounds fine to me. But you would never tell a modder "You're just being lazy, I demand this and that", would you? And you wouldn't word it in such a way that would make the person feel bad, would you?

I have few mods that I fell passionate about, two actually. There I never came into the situation, you implied above, since these devs are extremely dedicated and involved persons, who invest their free time and love into their creations.

But yeah, if these persons would start a revamp (as in upgrade in quality) and start cutting corners / doing half-assed work, I would tell them as I do tell Squad, what my opinion about their work is. And never forget, Squad actually got some money from us, which makes it even worse. I know we're not exactly entitled to further updates (which other game dev supports a game for free that long?), but given the fact that they do it for the money, one would expect the very best they have to offer. And, seriously, if what we have been shown so far is their very best, sorry, I won't lie, but then it is really a shame, but it ain't good...

If that is too negative, I don't know, but that's just how I (and others) feel.

[Vanamonde]

[Can't get rid of this quote box.]

Quote

 

  3 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

So why is it there? Maybe the author is too lazy to go back and edit what he's written for tone, or maybe he's not thoughtful enough to understand why it matters.

Now this is an actual personal attack I outright refuse to police my tone beyond what's needed to follow forum rules. I instead speak honestly I am "positive" when squad does something that warrants it, and I'm "negative" when squad does something to deserve it my history speaks for itself in this regard. Deal with it. 

 

 

You have used exactly this sort of language against Squad on many occasions. When it's directed at you, you call it a personal attack. When you direct it at Squad, you insist that it's reasonable criticism. It's not so nice to be on the other end of it, is it? Does it motivate you to give this person's views a calm, open-minded reception? All we are asking is that you give the Squad people the same consideration you are, in the quote above, demanding for yourself. 

So some of you folks are arguing that since being nice didn't work, you have now switched to being harsh. After months of heaping insults and abuse on Squad in weekly after weekly, how's that working out for you? Does it seem to be improving the situation? Is Squad feeling chastised and running off to comply with your demands? How about you try yet another approach, since this one isn't working? This constant anger can't be good for your own mental health. 

[Delay]

15 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

After months of heaping insults and abuse on Squad in weekly after weekly, how's that working out for you?

Being nice: doesn't work.
Being "harsh": doesn't work.

What else do you suggest? Being something in between? Going off into a completely different direction? If yes, what does that direction look like?

If there's one thing everyone in this thread can agree on it's that we want @SQUAD to do a best as they can. This is clearly not it.
There's a lot, a lot of room upwards that we all want Squad to utilize to improve the parts and make them as good as humanly possible. They apparently don't care about our demands and suggestions even though they would make the parts a lot better if they did.

This is just another mediocre update, and the only thing keeping it alive is the "revamp" which - aside from the new Mk1 pod, which does indeed look very good - doesn't actually make the parts look that much better and certainly not the way we want those parts to look like.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Delay

[IonStorm]

On 8/31/2018 at 4:00 PM, SQUAD said:

 

Welcome to KSP Weekly! Almost two years after the launch of NASA’s asteroid sampling spacecraft, OSIRIS-REx, it has caught it first glimpse of its target, the carbonaceous asteroid, 101955 Bennu, from a distance of almost six times the distance between the Earth and Moon (2.2 million km). The Origins Spectral Interpretation Resource Identification Security - Regolith Explorer mission, nicknamed Osiris-Rex, was designed to study the asteroid and return a sample back to Earth on September 24th, 2023 for detailed analysis.

Thanks for the shout out about OSIRIS-REx.  Much better images of Bennu will be available in the coming months!  Next year there will be the shape model released and tons of images.  Weekly status is here https://www.asteroidmission.org/status-updates/.  I'm happy to help SQUAD, or anyone else, get specs and information on the spacecraft, rocket, or target.

[Deddly]

11 minutes ago, Delay said:

Being nice: doesn't work.
Being "harsh": doesn't work.

What else do you suggest?

I suggest being nice, whether it gets the results we want or not. If we don't get results, perhaps we just have to live with the fact that the devs will do what they feel is best, and that won't always match what we think is best.

 

13 minutes ago, Delay said:

 They apparently don't care about our demands and suggestions even though they would make the parts a lot better if they did.

It's possible that they don't care about the demands.
It's also possible that they have set a bunch of people on ignore and are missing some great input. That's the eventuality I was hoping we could avoid when I started suggesting we be nice about it.