KSP Weekly: Closer to Bennu

[steve_v]

29 minutes ago, Dafni said:

Forcing platform specific limitations down our throats, and not even acknowledging or mentioning them anywhere, is nothing short of a disgrace in my book.

I'd call it flat-out deceptive. As far as I am aware the game is the same price on every supported platform (excepting console store weirdness), so regardless of platform every customer should be getting the same functionality.
What we actually get is special perks for steam users, priority bugfixes for windows, continual regressions on mac & linux, and a total disaster on consoles. It's not new, it's not getting better, and it's still liquiding me off.

If a specific platform has known bugs that Squad doesn't intend to fix in a timely manner or isn't going to receive updates, such should be advertised right next to the purchase button.
If Squad is going to keep blaming platform-specific bugs on Unity, it's high time to change the product name to "Kerbal Unity Demo". The same goes for consoles, "Kerbal Outsourcing Disaster" might be appropriate.

Edited September 5, 2018 by steve_v

[klgraham1013]

3 hours ago, steve_v said:

Squad's standard response to problems on anything but windows+steam appears to be silence

Squad's standard response is silence.  Even including Windows+Steam.  It's just that with consoles, that silence becomes a black void of nothingness and sadness.

[Deddly]

@steve_v, I don't know if we can really call the console version a "disaster" anymore. Sure, the Flying Tiger version was known to have many issues and I wouldn't argue against people calling that a disaster. But as it stands with the re-release by Blitworks, most users seems to be having a good experience (not perfect, but good) on arguably the most solid version of KSP that was released (1.2.x). Call it imperfect, lacking, incomplete if you like, but I think "disaster" is going a bit too far.

2 hours ago, steve_v said:

...regardless of platform every customer should be getting the same functionality.
What we actually get is special perks for steam users...

I have no arguments against what you say about bugs on Linux/Mac, but this line intrigues me. Does it upset you that Steam users get the workshop integration thing? I myself don't have KSP on Steam, yet I feel happy that those users can experience some added features. I would quite like to also be able to access that, but it doesn't make me jealous or bitter that they can enjoy something I don't have available to me. If it were a big thing like actual in-game content, I could understand, but it would seem a shame to essentially limit Steam functionality just because some of us chose to buy it elsewhere.

Only my opinion, not saying you're wrong.

[Nozza]

I'll admit it, I'm not too impressed by the new HECS2. That end cap, or lack thereof, is too similar to the gaping hole on the flea and hammer SRBs, and those are just absolutely disgusting.

 

But it's not all bad. The new gold section, for instance, is an improvement. The other new parts like the fuel tanks and the HECS, again, improvements. I might not like some factors of some of the new models, like the hole on the gold HECS, but it's not the end of the world. I can still cover it up with something (who really leaves an end cap without something on it), and even after that I have a nicer model. At the end of the day, the people complaining the loudest probably won't be affected, because they more than likely won't update to 1.5 anyway.

i think that's your problem @passinglurker. You seem so keen to race into the development previews every week and denounce whatever's been put up as "not Porkjet enough." I think you need to realise that Porkjet doesn't work for Squad anymore, so you're not going to get Porkjet parts, because it seems like you haven't figured that out yet. Not to mention that you rarely point about what the problem actually is. Your "criticisms" of the new parts can be summed up as "it's not Porkjet and I hate it. I thought it looked like an improvement (maybe that's because, no matter how small the change, the new parts are still an improvement. That's why they're being updated.) but then I saw too many problems that made it look lazy. Anyone with my experience could see these problems and how they make this part worse than the original, but I don't have to say what they actually are or how to fix them." You may as well be a bit grateful that this game's been getting updates to fix and revamp some of the ugly old, (gasp) non-Porkjet parts for the past five years.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Nozza

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, Nozza said:

At the end of the day, the people complaining the loudest probably won't be affected, because they more than likely won't update to 1.5 anyway.

This is one of the strangest statements I've read in a while.  I really don't get the correlation.  The addition of lack luster art is disappointing, but mods can provide alternatives to that.  It's the bug fixes that mods have a hard time making up for.   I know some want to paint some of us in this anti-Squad light, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  It's the same stereotyping (sometimes justified) that made it unsurprising to see Vanamonde like your comment.  We all have our strong opinions, and on a forum like this, it's those strong opinions that can define us to others.  I will sing the praises of 1.3.1, but the roller coaster that was 1.4 deserves all the criticism it received.  I want 1.5 to be the update I've been hoping for.  A good, stable version that kills bugs without introducing other major ones.  I would personally love for Squad to release a final, rock solid version.  I know some want updates forever.  That's not me.  I like to own finished products.  Whether it be books, movies, or, yes, video games.

 

1 hour ago, Nozza said:

I think you need to realise that Porkjet doesn't work for Squad anymore, so you're not going to get Porkjet parts, because it seems like you haven't figured that out yet.

I'm sorry, but this statement is so, incredibly wrong.  To assume that Porkjet was some sort of savant and completely incapable of being copied is somewhat absurd. 

 

1 hour ago, Nozza said:

Not to mention that you rarely point about what the problem actually is.

He constantly gives details on his complaints.

 

1 hour ago, Nozza said:

You may as well be a bit grateful that this game's been getting updates to fix and revamp some of the ugly old, (gasp) non-Porkjet parts for the past five years.

...

I'm grateful for Ven and Nertea and Cobalt Wolf.  You have to earn that.  You have to work for it.  Maybe that's been lost in this past decade.

--

The lines have been drawn.  The sides have been chosen.  The ensuing battle may have no effect on the actual outcome of the thing being fought over.  Everything happening here may all be in vain, and I'm starting to get tired.

[passinglurker]

@Nozza I should be grateful? For them retextureing the old part mesh to look generally worse? There's a laugh. We've seen even as recent as last week that I've been positive when there is something to be positive about no one can rightly fault me as one who hates everything without a reason so you're wasting your bytes trying to lecture me about this.

Look I can get where this is coming from you think it's unfair to judge squad for some exhaustive myriad of reasons and if this was the first time this was happening or even the first time with this post 1.2 iteration of the dev team I'd even say you were right, but this isn't the first time. When 1.4/MH was released everything was half baked both visually(which I criticized a lot leading up to release) and under the hood(which everyone else criticized soon after release) I think this is related if they are cutting corners here where we can see them then why would we assume they aren't cutting corners everywhere else? Especially considering their past releases? Either way a small minute "improvement" is insufficient  because it means in all other regards they are cutting corners why should I be grateful for this?

Edited September 6, 2018 by passinglurker

[Raptor9]

Cheer up everyone; remember this planet has puppies and pizza. 

[Nozza]

1 hour ago, klgraham1013 said:

I want 1.5 to be the update I've been hoping for.  A good, stable version that kills bugs without introducing other major ones.  I would personally love for Squad to release a final, rock solid version.  I know some want updates forever.  That's not me.  I like to own finished products.  Whether it be books, movies, or, yes, video games...

I can agree with that, but its not what I mean. The fact is that we don't have a stable version, and yet the same people who ask for one are the same ones constantly complaining about the development previews. The old parts are bad, give us new parts. Oh no, not those new parts, I don't like those. I want one particular style of parts. You can't have your cake and eat it too, because if development just stops on KSP tomorrow, what do you have? The far from perfect version that is 1.4.

I'm sorry, but this statement is so, incredibly wrong.  To assume that Porkjet was some sort of savant and completely incapable of being copied is somewhat absurd...

Yes, but there is no obligation to hold Porkjet on a pedestal either and assume that all future KSP assets MUST be "Porkalike." You can't say that criticisms of the assets aren't directed towards the art team when there's a clear bias against anything that isn't an imitation of Porkjet parts.

He constantly gives details on his complaints...

The obvious ones that everyone else complains about. But saying that something is worse than what it is meant to replace "because I have experience" when more work and detail has gone into it simply because "it isn't Porkjet" is not a valid complaint. Like I said, I don't particularly like the new HECS2, but the dev team is still trying to improve the old assets. I'd rather have the new parts, even if some of their textures have been "recycled" from other parts, then something like the old HECS probe cores, where the "foil" (is it foil? I can't tell, it looks diseased) is absolutely awful.

 

35 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

We've seen even as recent as last week that I've been positive when there is something to be positive about no one can rightly fault me as one who hates everything without a reason so you're wasting your bytes trying to lecture me about this.

Whether or not you can be positive is irrelevant. If you're going to criticise something, you have to actually provide a valid argument.

Look I can get where this is coming from you think it's unfair to judge squad for some exhaustive myriad of reasons...

I don't. There's nothing wrong with criticism. "This isn't Porkjet" is not a criticism.

I think this is related if they are cutting corners here where we can see them then why would we assume they aren't cutting corners everywhere else?

How are they cutting corners? If you're talking about re-using other assets, to make the new parts, then is it really? If something is an improvement over the old version, I don't think it matters if one of the textures already exists somewhere else. Considering you keep calling for "standardising" everything...

Either way a small minute "improvement" is insufficient  because it means in all other regards they are cutting corners...

How?

 

[Mako]

@Nozza

Negativity aside, passinglurker's critique on the quality of the work shown has never come across as just complaining and is far from the "it's not porkjet so I don't like it" summary you've decided it is. Porkjet is only brought into the discussion because Porkjet's quality of work is the best we've seen in stock KSP to date, and accepting anything less seems like accepting a downgrade in quality.

The technical ability demonstrated in some of the previews is subpar when compared to other parts already in the game. That is the argument being made here. The problem is it then comes down to lack of advanced ability of the current artists (I don't mean this as an insult, I can't draw my way out of a paper bad in real life or on PC), indifference, or development considerations. Not everyone is a skilled artist, and sometimes in game development "good enough" has to be considered good enough to ship. However, it doesn't mean that it stands up to art that is already in the game.

Porkjet's work isn't being evaluated here on its style, but on its technical expertise. It does things well on the artistic side of things as well as the game asset side. It's not unattainable by folks other than Porkjet, but we haven't seen the current team at Squad attempt to meet the same quality level. It's clear they're trying something -- no one can deny that -- but what they are showing isn't as proficient as what's come before.

You can like a style and still find faults with its execution, and you can agree that something is technically excellent and still find it unattractive, and everything in between... but what is being discussed (again, negativity aside) is the technical excellence displayed in Squad's previews. Your breakdown of the discussion is inaccurate and skewed (even when we factor in negativity).

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mako

[passinglurker]

@Nozza Ok this is getting out of hand I'm not gonna get into a crazy quote battle with you for the sake of not derailing the thread(and because @Mako worded things so well already). Instead let's try to clear the air. Now usually when I give a squad apologist the full technical run down the response I get back goes along the lines of "I'm just a player, I don't put anything under a microscope, so I don't care how it looks just leave britney squad alone" followed by more thread derailing word games and philosophical nitpicks. If I were to make an exception for you do you promise to not play games and actually listen and discuss calmly? I have no interest in humoring you if all you want is material to try to tear apart, or ultimately fall back on this common excuse.

Edited September 6, 2018 by passinglurker

[steve_v]

 

17 hours ago, Deddly said:

I don't know if we can really call the console version a "disaster" anymore. Sure, the Flying Tiger version was known to have many issues and I wouldn't argue against people calling that a disaster. But as it stands with the re-release by Blitworks, most users seems to be having a good experience (not perfect, but good) on arguably the most solid version of KSP that was released (1.2.x).

Past tense perhaps. Still, KSP was released on that platform in an unacceptable state, and left in an unacceptable state through several updates on other platforms. The new console port is still far behind the PC version.
As I said earlier, I find the concept of choosing or needing to choose a "solid release" from a list of outdated versions pretty ridiculous. If new releases are not an improvement on older ones, why bother with continued development at all?

 

17 hours ago, Deddly said:

Does it upset you that Steam users get the workshop integration thing?

Steam workshop, no. I just consider it rather lazy using steam rather than an in-house solution that all players could enjoy. It's completely eclipsed by KerbalX anyway.
Prereleases only on steam, incremental updates only on steam and/or windows, and borking generic USB input for the sake of steam controller support, that certainly does annoy me.

Edited September 6, 2018 by steve_v

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

Past tense perhaps. Still, KSP was released on that platform in an unacceptable state

Yeah, that was really a shame

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

I just consider it rather lazy using steam rather than an in-house solution that all players could enjoy. 

Oh, wouldn't I LOVE that. Curse integration was going to be a thing, would have been nice @Kaelten

[steve_v]

11 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Curse integration was going to be a thing

 Blow curse. KerbalX & SpaceDock all the way. I'll take open-source community initiatives over some noxious commercial third-party any day.

[Delay]

14 hours ago, Nozza said:

You seem so keen to race into the development previews every week and denounce whatever's been put up as "not Porkjet enough." I think you need to realise that Porkjet doesn't work for Squad anymore, so you're not going to get Porkjet parts, because it seems like you haven't figured that out yet.

It's about the consistency it would offer to the part selection. If the new parts would look like those made by Porkjet the set of parts we're provided with would possess a consistent art style.

That's not the case right now and judging by the part previews we've seen already it will not be improved in 1.5, it'll perhaps be even worse than before.

[PrvDancer85]

9 hours ago, steve_v said:

Past tense perhaps.

...

[scimas]

The new version of HECS 2 actually looks worse to me. 

Now wait, I'm not saying all of it is bad. But the whole time I couldn't focus on anything but the gaping black hole on top. 

It's like the old gold foil was 'okay' and the old end cap was 'okay' so the result overall was 'okay' too. With the new version the gold foil is 'whoa photo realism' and the end cap is 'why is my paint drawing a part of KSP now?' The contrast in the quality actually makes it an eye sore. 

[Burning Kan]

On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, SQUAD said:

slightly changed the geometry

looks much more modern with this round egdes

On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, SQUAD said:

updated the textures

looks clearer,i like the modern font much more,goes in the porkjet style direction

On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, SQUAD said:

added a new shader, and worked on the specular map to give it a realistic metallic look that will interact with light

for me the best of it,yeah!(raise the graphic to new level!)

On 9/1/2018 at 12:18 AM, nestor said:

And that's correct, the HECS2 is the first part to make use of that new shader.

cant wait to see this foil on the tank variants texture revamp,that hopefully fits perfectly aligned to next attached tanks

looks like squad is tryin to make it for us all (photocartoonish)

On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, SQUAD said:

ability to assign Kerbals directly from the VAB/SPH into an EAS-1 External Command Seat

How long we been waiting on this ? BUT finally.also well done!

all in all, steps in the right direction,for me

keep going