How can I disable the level 3 requirement for EVA chutes?

[aluc24]

Hi,

The recent KSP version introduced EVA chutes for kerbals, but it requires them to reach level 3 to use these chutes. I think it's a bit ridiculous, as these chutes are much needed in the early career, when flying planes around Kerbin, doing contracts, long before any space exploration. Is it possible to disable that level requirement? I couldn't find anything in new game settings, nor in debug menu, nor any mod that does this. Maybe someone in config files? Can anyone help?

[Gargamel]

The say the best way to get a correct answer on the internet is to post an incorrect one.

So...   I think that value is hardcoded into the game code, and can't be changed.  

Waiting for confirmation......

[4x4cheesecake]

6 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

The say the best way to get a correct answer on the internet is to post an incorrect one.

So...   I think that value is hardcoded into the game code, and can't be changed.  

Waiting for confirmation......

Pretty sure it is hardcoded.

By looking at the class reference, I can find a 'ModuleEvaChute' which contains a function called 'ModuleEvaChute.CanCrewMemberUseParachute' which will check the experience of the Kerbal and returns a boolean.
So, if I get this right, without changing the experience of a Kerbal, you cannot change this behaviour either. I guess a modder can change it by overriding the boolean always with 'true' but I'm not sure about it^^

[aluc24]

15 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Pretty sure it is hardcoded.

By looking at the class reference, I can find a 'ModuleEvaChute' which contains a function called 'ModuleEvaChute.CanCrewMemberUseParachute' which will check the experience of the Kerbal and returns a boolean.
So, if I get this right, without changing the experience of a Kerbal, you cannot change this behaviour either. I guess a modder can change it by overriding the boolean always with 'true' but I'm not sure about it^^

Well, if that's true, then editing ModuleEvaChute, and replacing every instance of CanCrewMemberUseParachute function with "true" should fix this. Is there anyone here who knows how to do it?

[4x4cheesecake]

1 minute ago, aluc24 said:

Well, if that's true, then editing ModuleEvaChute, and replacing every instance of CanCrewMemberUseParachute function with "true" should fix this. Is there anyone here who knows how to do it?

Well, it is not like 'Open file xy and change the values' since this is a function of the KSPAsset.dll. You may want to carry over this question to the Addon Discussion as a mod suggestion and you will probably find a modder who can and want to do it.

[aluc24]

2 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Well, it is not like 'Open file xy and change the values' since this is a function of the KSPAsset.dll. You may want to carry over this question to the Addon Discussion as a mod suggestion and you will probably find a modder who can and want to do it.

Thank you, I will.

[Superfluous J]

You CAN disable "Kerbal Experience" and then everbody's essentially level 5. I think in everything, so Jeb can change tires and Bob is actually useful, and they can all open their chutes even on the first mission.

It's a bit more than you want but other than installing a chute mod, I don't know any other way.

[aluc24]

3 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

You CAN disable "Kerbal Experience" and then everbody's essentially level 5. I think in everything, so Jeb can change tires and Bob is actually useful, and they can all open their chutes even on the first mission.

It's a bit more than you want but other than installing a chute mod, I don't know any other way.

Yeah, I know, but disabling experience altogether disables some good challenge where that experience does make sense...

I have installed a chute mod for now, but it doesn't disable the stock chutes, and they duplicate. That's why I started this topic

[Zeiss Ikon]

Also worth considering whether being able to deploy an EVA parachute matters -- if you're running a career with more or less standard settings, your Kerbals can't EVA until you've upgraded the Astronaut Center at least once.  No EVA == no EVA parachute deployment...

[aluc24]

3 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

Also worth considering whether being able to deploy an EVA parachute matters -- if you're running a career with more or less standard settings, your Kerbals can't EVA until you've upgraded the Astronaut Center at least once.  No EVA == no EVA parachute deployment...

Unless you're using command seats

[Zeiss Ikon]

2 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

Unless you're using command seats

In stock game, that won't help you; you have to EVA to get your Kerbal from a command pod or cockpit into the command seat (most folks who build parafoil craft start with the thing coupled to a Mk. 1 Command Pod, it seems).  If you're using the Take Command mod, then you can start a vessel with a Kerbal in the command seat.

[aluc24]

Just now, Zeiss Ikon said:

In stock game, that won't help you; you have to EVA to get your Kerbal from a command pod or cockpit into the command seat (most folks who build parafoil craft start with the thing coupled to a Mk. 1 Command Pod, it seems).  If you're using the Take Command mod, then you can start a vessel with a Kerbal in the command seat.

I am using that mod. Lots of my early planes have just the command seats, so I can leave them while in-flight during an emergency, which kind of calls for a parachute...

[Superfluous J]

9 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

In stock game, that won't help you; you have to EVA to get your Kerbal from a command pod or cockpit into the command seat (most folks who build parafoil craft start with the thing coupled to a Mk. 1 Command Pod, it seems).  If you're using the Take Command mod, then you can start a vessel with a Kerbal in the command seat.

Sure it will. You can EVA on Kerbin so long as you're landed, which you are if you're on the launchpad.

[Zeiss Ikon]

Just now, 5thHorseman said:

Sure it will. You can EVA on Kerbin so long as you're landed, which you are if you're on the launchpad.

Okay.  Haven't tried it in career (only done parafoil in sandbox, where all Kerbals are 5-star and all buildings are fully upgraded).

[aluc24]

So, uh... Anyone else got any ideas how to disable that requirement?

[Zeiss Ikon]

I'm afraid that, without writing code, your only options are either to turn off "Enable Kerbal Experience" in Advanced settings, or individually edit the Kerbal entries in the save file (and I'm not sure that will do the job -- that is, I'm not sure there's a specific EVA Parachute entry, vs. just changing the Kerbal's experience level).

Of course, you could still install one of the mods that provide emergency parachutes for Kerbals, usually in the form of a small module attached to the outside of a command part.  You'll get a round canopy that just drops straight down (essentially a part recovery parachute that attaches to your Kerbal as you eject from the vessel) rather than the nice, controllable glide 'chutes the game provides in 1.4.1+, but at least your Kerbals have a way to survive a vessel in a condition that can't be landed...

[Zhetaan]

On 9/2/2018 at 2:46 PM, aluc24 said:

So, uh... Anyone else got any ideas how to disable that requirement?

Sorry.  I've got an issue on the bug tracker about it but so far, I've seen no motion on it.  Personally, I think it's better to tie the parachute to a building upgrade that theoretically improves suit technology--the obvious choices are either the Astronaut Complex or Research & Development (or both).

To put it in perspective, imagine if Grissom and White, owing to their time in Gemini, got wrenches and cutting tools for escaping the command pod in an emergency but Chaffee didn't get them because he was the rookie.  'Hey, New Guy:  if there's a problem, you're the designated victim.'  It's completely nonsensical.

Add in the fact that you can't get to level three without going interplanetary, and the whole affair ends up with a large question mark next to it as if to ask, 'What's the point?'  As it stands, personal parachutes are more of a sandbox toy:  I like to take my time in career and don't get to interplanetary space for a long while after I've done most of the cross-Kerbin science trekking with unstable aeroplanes.  When I do get to interplanetary space, I usually also have the good plane parts and don't really need parachutes.  I suppose paragliders are cute but they're really not my cup of tea, and I'm definitely not making a sandbox save for the sake of one feature--except for testing, in which case I figure out how it works, delete the save, and then probably never use the feature again because it doesn't support anything else I want to do.

I like the idea and think it has a lot of potential, but the cost to unlock that potential is too high and in the wrong direction.

[aluc24]

2 minutes ago, Zhetaan said:

Sorry.  I've got an issue on the bug tracker about it but so far, I've seen no motion on it.  Personally, I think it's better to tie the parachute to a building upgrade that theoretically improves suit technology--the obvious choices are either the Astronaut Complex or Research & Development (or both).

To put it in perspective, imagine if Grissom and White, owing to their time in Gemini, got wrenches and cutting tools for escaping the command pod in an emergency but Chaffee didn't get them because he was the rookie.  'Hey, New Guy:  if there's a problem, you're the designated victim.'  It's completely nonsensical.

Add in the fact that you can't get to level three without going interplanetary, and the whole affair ends up with a large question mark next to it as if to ask, 'What's the point?'  As it stands, personal parachutes are more of a sandbox toy:  I like to take my time in career and don't get to interplanetary space for a long while after I've done most of the cross-Kerbin science trekking with unstable aeroplanes.  When I do get to interplanetary space, I usually also have the good plane parts and don't really need parachutes.  I suppose paragliders are cute but they're really not my cup of tea, and I'm definitely not making a sandbox save for the sake of one feature--except for testing, in which case I figure out how it works, delete the save, and then probably never use the feature again because it doesn't support anything else I want to do.

I like the idea and think it has a lot of potential, but the cost to unlock that potential is too high and in the wrong direction.

Agreed 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[mystifeid]

5 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

Add in the fact that you can't get to level three without going interplanetary

It is enough to:

- orbit Kerbin
- land on the Mun
- land on Minmus
- orbit the Sun

After visiting Minmus it takes minimal extra dV to escape Kerbin's SOI and then immediately re-enter it. After a while in a career I am sending 19-20 Kerbals at a time first to the Mun then to Minmus. 

[Zhetaan]

4 hours ago, mystifeid said:

It is enough to:

- orbit Kerbin
- land on the Mun
- land on Minmus
- orbit the Sun

After visiting Minmus it takes minimal extra dV to escape Kerbin's SOI and then immediately re-enter it. After a while in a career I am sending 19-20 Kerbals at a time first to the Mun then to Minmus. 

I'm aware of that.  My point is that it's tedious, and made even more so because you have to do it again for every Kerbal that you want to have the parachute.  I appreciate that it doesn't take much effort beyond landing on the Mun and Minmus to make it happen ... but landing on the Mun and Minmus takes a lot of effort!  Most people who play KSP never leave Kerbin's sphere of influence, after all.  We're also talking about putting together gigantic tour buses that double as moon multilanders, and all for the sake of having what by rights ought to be standard equipment.

Granted, this only highlights the problems with the experience system.

Spoiler

 

For example, why does Bill need to go to the Mun, Minmus, interplanetary space, and (with default settings) back to Kerbin again to learn how to change a tyre?  Isn't that the kind of thing you want him to know before you send him to strange new worlds with prototype rovers? --But I digress.  Instead, I want to say that once you begin to set up industrial experience machines, you're doing something as cool as landing on the moon for the sake of nothing more than checking an imaginary box, and that, I think, falls short of the spirit of the game.

Don't misunderstand me:  there are certainly plenty of routine missions out there.  Many tourist missions, for example, serve in that capacity.  But when it comes to visiting other places, there's always something new to see.  Maybe it's an anomaly, or a new biome, or just a weird terrain glitch like the Mohole.  Maybe you simply haven't been there before and want to see how high you can jump.  Maybe you've made a new discovery and want to see it up close--I think that the KerbNet anomaly detection system tries to keep things interesting by including the random factor, for example.  But I think that when the experience system that's currently in place makes walking on the moon something that gets in the way of whatever it is that you really want to do, then you're dangerously close to getting jaded, and, as I said, that falls short of the spirit of the game.

 

However, there's a mod for that, among many others.  Kerbal experience is exposed to the modding community and there are a few different takes on it that work to make it a) less tedious and b) more relevant to the tasks that the Kerbals are expected to do.  So long as EVA parachutes remain hardcoded, they have no similar option.  It might be possible to make a mod that records a Kerbal's experience, temporarily gives that Kerbal level 3 if it's in the air without a vessel, and then restores the original experience once that Kerbal lands, but that seems unreasonably cumbersome--especially since at that point, you may as well install the EVA parachutes mod and avoid the issue completely.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Zhetaan

[mystifeid]

12 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

I'm aware of that.  My point is that it's tedious, and made even more so because you have to do it again for every Kerbal that you want to have the parachute.  I appreciate that it doesn't take much effort beyond landing on the Mun and Minmus to make it happen ... but landing on the Mun and Minmus takes a lot of effort!  Most people who play KSP never leave Kerbin's sphere of influence, after all.  We're also talking about putting together gigantic tour buses that double as moon multilanders, and all for the sake of having what by rights ought to be standard equipment.

Granted, this only highlights the problems with the experience system.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

For example, why does Bill need to go to the Mun, Minmus, interplanetary space, and (with default settings) back to Kerbin again to learn how to change a tyre?  Isn't that the kind of thing you want him to know before you send him to strange new worlds with prototype rovers? --But I digress.  Instead, I want to say that once you begin to set up industrial experience machines, you're doing something as cool as landing on the moon for the sake of nothing more than checking an imaginary box, and that, I think, falls short of the spirit of the game.

Don't misunderstand me:  there are certainly plenty of routine missions out there.  Many tourist missions, for example, serve in that capacity.  But when it comes to visiting other places, there's always something new to see.  Maybe it's an anomaly, or a new biome, or just a weird terrain glitch like the Mohole.  Maybe you simply haven't been there before and want to see how high you can jump.  Maybe you've made a new discovery and want to see it up close--I think that the KerbNet anomaly detection system tries to keep things interesting by including the random factor, for example.  But I think that when the experience system that's currently in place makes walking on the moon something that gets in the way of whatever it is that you really want to do, then you're dangerously close to getting jaded, and, as I said, that falls short of the spirit of the game.

 

However, there's a mod for that, among many others.  Kerbal experience is exposed to the modding community and there are a few different takes on it that work to make it a) less tedious and b) more relevant to the tasks that the Kerbals are expected to do.  So long as EVA parachutes remain hardcoded, they have no similar option.  It might be possible to make a mod that records a Kerbal's experience, temporarily gives that Kerbal level 3 if it's in the air without a vessel, and then restores the original experience once that Kerbal lands, but that seems unreasonably cumbersome--especially since at that point, you may as well install the EVA parachutes mod and avoid the issue completely.

Whenever I read that most people who play KSP never leave Kerbin's SOI, I think that it is a fairly meaningless statistic without also knowing how many people never walk on the Mun or even make LKO and how many people with two hundred hours or more never leave Kerbin's SOI. After all, I probably own a hundred games myself with less than thirty minutes playtime in each.

Landing on the Mun takes a lot of effort? Are we talking about the same game? In any ongoing career game I've played, I've ended up landing on the Mun and Minmus countless times for science, flag, mining, base, rover, rescue and salvage contracts.

But the OP wants eva chutes early on in career mode. Well, good luck with that. I think it's funny that a new feature added in March means that the experience system is now (or maybe more so now) interfering with the spirit of the game. However, probably a lot of people agree that parachutes should be standard and often in these cases the game is changed to suit.

Though, if I'd made KSP and no-one seriously wanted to leave Kerbin, I might add some incentives too. Maybe you can instead look forward to more hard coded Level 3, 4 and 5 items and attributes.

[Zhetaan]

5 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Whenever I read that most people who play KSP never leave Kerbin's SOI, I think that it is a fairly meaningless statistic without also knowing how many people never walk on the Mun or even make LKO and how many people with two hundred hours or more never leave Kerbin's SOI. After all, I probably own a hundred games myself with less than thirty minutes playtime in each.

That's a fair point.  Conceded.

5 hours ago, mystifeid said:

I think it's funny that a new feature added in March means that the experience system is now (or maybe more so now) interfering with the spirit of the game.

I'm not certain I understand you here.  I never implied that this was something new:  my assertion is that the experience system has interfered with the spirit of the game since its inception back in 0.90.  Rather, the addition of personal parachutes in March only highlights the existing two issues as I described them:  1) the rewards offered do not logically follow from the tasks one must complete to earn them, and 2) the nature of the task encourages grinding.  The difference, on the other hand, is that the experience system can be modded if one prefers something different, but the parachute cannot.

Also, in reference to the spirit of the game, I ask, not as an accusation but as a preventive, please do not confuse my emphatic delivery with some sort of moral outrage:  KSP goes farther than any other game I've owned in that it--for the most part--lets me change the features I don't like into features that I do, or else shut them off.  I have nothing but appreciation for that ... but I would appreciate it more if that aspect was delivered consistently--hence, the parachute thing.

6 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Though, if I'd made KSP and no-one seriously wanted to leave Kerbin, I might add some incentives too. Maybe you can instead look forward to more hard coded Level 3, 4 and 5 items and attributes.

I'm actually not opposed to the idea in principle, so long as it is executed well.  That is to say, as before, the items and attributes offered in reward ought to make sense in the context of the task.  Otherwise, I can see such an effort resulting in nothing more than the big passenger buses swinging out to Jool or another appropriate body after visiting Minmus.  If the only goal is to encourage people to leave Kerbin, then I'll grant that is a success.  However, if the true purpose was something subtler, such as encouraging people to explore the solar system that all that effort went into coding, then--and perhaps we're of completely different temperaments in this regard--I think having such a thing as a 'token Jool XP run', or anything that caused people to see part of that solar system as a mere waypoint rather than a destination, would be disappointing.

But I digress.  I'm not the one who makes those decisions, and I'm not going to dictate to people how they should play their single-player sandbox game.  I suppose, in like fashion, that I should avoid being too emphatic about telling the devs how to program it.  Thanks for the discussion; your points are well-made and well-received.

[Tonka Crash]

I just tested this in my career game and I'm not seeing the restriction. Not that I'm complaining, I think it's a dumb restriction. I don't think I've ever seen a restriction, so didn't know it was a thing, but it's not like I use these very often.

I'm far enough along in career all buildings are fully upgraded and the tech tree (CTT) is complete through level 7 with about half of 8&9. Kerbal Experience is On, but I have Kerbals set to Immediate Level Up.

To test I stuck a 1-star Pilot in a rocket, had him EVA at 1000ft while the booster was still firing and was able to pop his chute to land. Or is this not the  issue being discussed?  I have 60ish mods, but none for parachutes, abort systems, ejection seats or anything along those lines.