Lets talk about quicksaving in challenges...

[Triop]

Now I do like to host races on Kerbin, but everytime I set up a challenge people use quicksave while racing.

Why would you do that ?

I came to understand that quicksaving can save you from bugs, that's totally fine by me.

But why cheat (yes, I call it cheating) in a challenge ?

What is worst is that I can't prevent people from quicksaving, there is no way to check if they did or not.

Let me know what you think and let's be civil about it.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Triop

[Zeiss Ikon]

I suppose you could require people in your race challenge to submit a full saved game, which would let you verify that they were (at least at the time the save was copied) playing "Hard" mode, which prevents quick-loads, reverts, and respawns.

 

[Triop]

5 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

I suppose you could require people in your race challenge to submit a full saved game, which would let you verify that they were (at least at the time the save was copied) playing "Hard" mode, which prevents quick-loads, reverts, and respawns.

 

I don't know, KSP is so open source that that can easily be hacked, but I'll look into it.

I wish we could just trust people here on the forum...

[Gargamel]

Aside from bragging rights, there is no prize in a challenge.  There's no advantage to cheating in a KSP challenge.  KSP is about finding a challenge, either in the game itself as a personal goal you have set, or through the forums like we are talking about, and then completing that challenge.      As for the personal goals, if a player considers hacking the orbit, or using quicksaves as not cheating, then that is they way they choose to play.  There is no 'cheating' in KSP. 

As for challenges, there's no reason to worry about them.   There's no payout.  There's no reward.  There's just the self satisfaction of having completed a task as described.  If one of the requirements is to not use a quicksave, and if they have used a quicksave, then they have really only cheated themselves.    Sure, other's might not make the high score list, but those who have completed the challenge correctly, will at least know they did it, and will then strive to do it better. 

1 hour ago, Triop said:

In this game I went to the Mun and Minmus without ever using quicksave.

That is very impressive, but does not make your game play any better or worse than any other player.   It all just depends on each person's standards.    Personally, I use MJ, probably too much for my own good, and I will QS before attempting anything mission critical.  I usually easily complete the task, as I have been playing long enough to get it right the first time (most of the time), but when It goes sideways, I have that backup.  It's just I choose to play the game, and everybody makes their own choices. 

[Triop]

14 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

If one of the requirements is to not use a quicksave, and if they have used a quicksave, then they have really only cheated themselves.    Sure, other's might not make the high score list, but those who have completed the challenge correctly, will at least know they did it, and will then strive to do it better. 

[I_Killed_Jeb]

no longer necessary

Edited September 11, 2018 by I_Killed_Jeb

[Triop]

7 minutes ago, I_Killed_Jeb said:

 

It's pretty absurd of you to demand civility while not so subtly demeaning other people's gameplay achievements

You have a point, I'll delete it from my post.

[Jacke]

I've used quicksaves.  And I've done long critical stretches of missions without a quicksaves.  Usually because I forgot to.  (Because right after I've often thought "Oh crap, do I want to lose that if something bugs out?" and promptly quicksaved.)

I've primarily used quicksaves to guard against bugs and in the many times I was trying something I wasn't familiar with in KSP and thought I might want to back up and do things another way.  In careers and continued sandbox games, I always quicksave and backup the save after finishing a mission, again primarily for the same reasons.

In challenges, especially race challenges, I can see not quicksaving, especially in the under 15 minute duration.  At most, I would use quicksaving only for guarding against bugs.  And if I had to restore a quicksave, I'd be sure to mention it.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Jacke

[purpleivan]

Quicksaves in general gameplay shouldn't be frowned on, as it's a part of the stock game and given the length of time it takes to travel around, even with warp, it's a reasonable thing to do.

If someone wants to play without them to give the game a greater challenge, then good for them, but if you don't... then don't.

In my gameplay I use quicksaves a lot, partly as its a normal thing in gaming generally, but it's also the behaviour I'm used to in my work with stuff that's not in revision control yet... save often, save many files.

As for challenges, if the rules say no quicksaves, then don't use them (the Kraken doesn't like a cheater), but if people choose to cheat, that's on them.

Many challenges are about getting somewhere in the shortest time, or achieving the highest speed, then accept screengrabs as proof. Altering what the speed or time in the HUD displays in an image is pretty trivial (quick bit of cut'n'paste), but we trust entrants not to do that.

Probably the simplest way to get reliable proof (for the person setting the challenge) is to require an end to end video of entries, but that is more time consuming for the entrants that just grabing some pics.

[Superfluous J]

Two points:

1. If you said no quicksaves and they quicksaved, that's cheating. If you said don't cough while playing and they coughed, it's cheating.
2. There's no practical way to prove either happened so it's up to them to be honorable, and you to post rules that make sense. "No coughing" of course does not but "no quicksaving" can in certain circumstances.

One of my favorite challenges I ever participated in was to start a brand new sandbox save, build a single rocket, launch it to the mun and return safely to Kerbin in one try. No revert. No reload. If you fail you delete the save and never try the challenge again. But if the challenge doesn't say to not reload, I will reload as many times as I want.

(I looked for the challenge but I could not find it. It makes me sad because it was really, really fun)

[Aeroboi]

KSP is not a racing game. In a dedicated racing game there are game mechanics enforcing rules on the player. They are made and enforced because people you report are everywhere otherwise copies of race game titles wouldn't be sold anyway.
While I'm completely against them I think we all experience people in our daily lives that lie and cheat. Some are unhonourable and bend the rules to get something done based on malicious pleasure to boost their ego. Some may laugh behind their monitor how they fooled you and how your unjustly assume that he was righteous as if the guy is some devilish monster dedicated to break your cute little game.

Some people are like that and AFAIK I witness at least a few of them within any community of people so without pointing fingers they must be anywhere. Friendly on the outside doesn't mean friendly on the inside.

What's there to do about it? If you seriously know one guy is cheating, just imagine how sad that is and re-imagine the guy next on the leaderboard is the actual placeholder. It's not good enough for you I assume but maybe it helps to imagine it.

@Triop Solution: Make a mod that prevents quicksaving that must be activated visible in the UI on the picture taken to pass the challenge submission test.

[Klapaucius]

I think the issue is simply a case of honesty and keeping in the spirit of the challenge. I have a similar beef with folks who look for loopholes rather than trying to see what the challenger was striving for and working within those constraints.  In some challenges, quicksaving may be fine, but that should be clear up front so the playing field is level.  In your Dessert Derby you were pretty clear about what kind of saving was kosher and what was not.  I did ask about it, and you gave a good answer.  So, wanting to keep with the spirit of what you were asking for, I did not use it.

I think @Aeroboi has made very good point. You just cannot police all this stuff.  But I think if you set up a challenge with clear expectations and an appeal to our better selves, most folks in this community will go along. As for the 5% who don't? Their problem, really.  There are no cash prizes in KSP, and the only good reason to do a challenge is for the fun of it.  Despite my slow time, I feel pretty good having completed your challenge. I'm less than a year into the game and that was my first rover race, not to mention my first successful transport aircraft.  I'd never even managed to get a coupler to work properly before that.  I just wish I had not killed Val. She's my favourite and I felt really bad...

[Rocket In My Pocket]

If you quick save and then re-load you lose the ability to revert to launch.

Couldn't you use that as proof somehow? Like they have to take a pic at the end of the course with their mission time and the Esc menu up so you can see the revert button isn't grayed out? I mean, I suppose anything can be faked but, it'd be a little harder to do?

That said, cheating is cheating; and the creator of the challenge makes the rules. Doing anything contrary to what he laid out is cheating imo.

2 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

I have a similar beef with folks who look for loopholes rather than trying to see what the challenger was striving for and working within those constraints.

I agree in theory but I think there are exceptions to be made if the idea is really clever, funny, or interesting. However I think it's only polite to disallow yourself from the competition when doing this. Ie "Hey guys I had a really crazy idea I did just for fun, prolly not in the spirit of the rules and won't count, but check it out anyways for laughs!"

Edited September 11, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[invision]

i think ive used quick  save about 5 times since playing kerbal, the first 6 months or so i had no idea there was much an option so i got used to doing missions that took hours without saving and pray i dont crash. i still play like that

[Sharpy]

First things first, you can't quicksave in a moving vehicle. You have to stop. So you can't get a great time if you're quicksaving.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

56 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

First things first, you can't quicksave in a moving vehicle. You have to stop. So you can't get a great time if you're quicksaving.

Wait...seriously? I quicksave all the time mid flight while moving with airplanes, is it different for ground vehicles?

[katateochi]

4 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If you quick save and then re-load you lose the ability to revert to launch.

That would work, so long as in the process of getting to the start line you don't have to switch to any other craft outside of the physics range.
 

Another solution is to use the flight events and have an event (stage) which you trigger before the start of the race, like this:

Spoiler

So here I am at the start of the race (a long and challenging sprint down the runway).
note the pointless decoupler that's attached (horribly offset) to the top of my rover

Before I cross the starting line I decouple the decoupler, open the flight events screen (F3) and grab a screen shot

Then I sprint to the end of the runway and after crossing the finish line I again open the flight events panel and grab another screenshot.

Note the separation of stage one is still in the log (only difference in the log is that the decoupler impacted).  
Now, because this was such a challenging race, I did stop half way and make a quicksave. But in this case I haven't reloaded. 

But....I was disapointed with my time, because I forgot to start my fuel cells so I'd run out of power at the end.  So I reloaded and crossed the finish line again (actually got the exact same time, but that's beside the point!).

And behold! The cheater has been busted! Because I reloaded the quicksave my flight events have been wiped

I'm pretty sure this method will work with having the pilot exit and reenter the vehicle, rather than needing to have a pointless decoupler attached. And that also means it can be used on subsequent stages of the same race.

 

I think given KSP's sometimes unpredictable nature, having an overly strict rule about quicksaving is just asking for people to circumvent it.  On a long race, quicksaving at checkpoints seems reasonable to me.  To have to redo an entire challenge just because KSP tweaked out, the power cutout, or your cat decided that NOW was the time to leap on the keyboard does make it seem unnecessarily restrictive.  I'm totally behind the notion that quicksaving between checkpoints is cheating in the context of these challenges.  But if you've got to redo a hour+ of an entire race, instead of being able to redo the last 10 minute sprint, then....tbh with RL time constraints some of us just wouldn't have the time.
 

 

[Sharpy]

Oh, maybe you can quicksave mid-jump. Or maybe they changed it since I last checked...

[katateochi]

7 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Wait...seriously? I quicksave all the time mid flight while moving with airplanes, is it different for ground vehicles?

yeah, it won't let you QS while moving across terrain. You could prob do a QS while going over a jump though. So that makes a whole load of sense! 

[Triop]

2 hours ago, Sharpy said:

First things first, you can't quicksave in a moving vehicle. You have to stop. So you can't get a great time if you're quicksaving.

Really ? I did not know this...

[Superfluous J]

14 minutes ago, Triop said:

Really ? I did not know this...

yeah specifically moving over the surface or "about to crash" (i.e. small jumps). You have to get a decent amount of air before the game will allow you to save.

9 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

One of my favorite challenges I ever participated in was to start a brand new sandbox save, build a single rocket, launch it to the mun and return safely to Kerbin in one try. No revert. No reload. If you fail you delete the save and never try the challenge again. But if the challenge doesn't say to not reload, I will reload as many times as I want.

(I looked for the challenge but I could not find it. It makes me sad because it was really, really fun)

I found it! It was named "The Test" which is a very obscure name. I actually passed the video over twice before reading the description and finding out it was the one I was looking for.

The post was on the last forum and the link no longer works, so I can't find that. However, here's the video:

Spoiler

 

 

[Superfluous J]

15 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

The post was on the last forum and the link no longer works, so I can't find that.

Thanks to @Dman979 the thread has been found!

It seems really easy until you start doing it and realize how many things you just auto-revert on. (Check Yo Stagin')

[roboslacker]

We should reboot that challenge.

[se5a]

I used to play in hardmode but stopped because it was too hard.

now I'm a bit better at the game I'm tempted to try again, but I come across so many physics bugs these days that I quicksave all the time.

[DJWyre]

I think it's a matter of self-discipline. If you reload due to an error on your part, then it's cheating. The hard work you put in is cheapened.
If a bug/crash/power-cut kills a challenge attempt then I do think it's OK to load a save. Otherwise the honest hard work you put in has been wasted through no fault of your own.

I save frequently, but I very rarely load a save these days as I don't make the number of mistakes I used to and also prefer to either learn from them or fix them. That probe loose signal? I don't reload, set up more relays and try again, that thing is wasted funds, time and more space-clutter. Not enough dv in the rescue craft? Launch another, even if I could revert the flight. But my comp isn't great and will sometimes only last 2 hours of running KSP before it or the game needs a reboot. Sometimes I'm lucky and get 6-8 hours, but not always. Add in the fact that the auto save only occurs at given points and you can go for days before suddenly loosing everything you've just done, and I save a lot, even if I don't use it much.