Colonising Mars and a meme I found

[Green Baron]

22 minutes ago, tater said:

Jaywalking? Off to the organ banks!

Ba ! I want a fresh one. Some British humour ?

(Liver scene from Monty Python's Meaning of Life)

Edited October 10, 2018 by Green Baron

[YNM]

18 hours ago, tater said:

What does a colony do for people that no longer contribute, or are criminals, or who risk the lives of literally everyone via their actions? Chuck them out the airlock?

In some cases, colonies are full of them.

[tater]

42 minutes ago, YNM said:

In some cases, colonies are full of them.

Again, Earth analogies don't work. Transporting people to a remote land, and simply pushing them off the boat is possible on Earth, where they can be expected to live if they bother to expend any effort. The equivalent on Mars would in fact be pushing them out the airlock---surely they can fabricate a habitat out of martian regolith before they asphyxiate, right?

I think this is a non-trivial aspect of any assumed colony, actually. It is not just an urban area, it's sort of hyper-urban. People living in close proximity who literally depend on their fellows not doing something really dumb. If someone hits their 20s, and presents with frank mental illness (schizophrenia, say), then decides that the voices say he needs to open the city to the natural air on Mars, what then? The guy is literally a waste of O₂. It is only barely treatable, and if he feels better and takes himself off his meds, he endangers everyone. It's not Earth, and people's intuitions about what to do might need to change.

If I were involved with sending people to a Mars colony, I'd want to specifically exempt anyone who is motivated by irrational ideas, too... (dangerous ground for the forum, so leave it at that).

[YNM]

Just now, tater said:

Earth analogies don't work.

Would be helpful because one of those penal colonies grew into the strongest country on Earth.

[kerbiloid]

5 minutes ago, tater said:

If someone hits their 20s, and presents with frank mental illness (schizophrenia, say), then decides that the voices say he needs to open the city to the natural air on Mars, what then? The guy is literally a waste of O₂. It is only barely treatable, and if he feels better and takes himself off his meds, he endangers everyone. It's not Earth, and people's intuitions about what to do might need to change.

This makes virtual/augmented reality a must-have for extraterrestrial settlements.
If you can't defeat the voices in somebody's head, at least make them to be constructive.

May his three-eyed snake with crocodile wings become a virtual assistant.

[tater]

There is also just the simple fact that the intellectual capacity of people varies. Some people can do the technical work which is needed---self-sufficiency requires that all tech fields be duplicated---while other will be stuck as janitors, etc. People who are deficient enough to not be able to do useful work cannot be "homeless." At some point it seems like such a society can have very little room for free riders, particularly in the early decades.

[kerbiloid]

16 minutes ago, tater said:

There is also just the simple fact that the intellectual capacity of people varies. Some people can do the technical work which is needed---self-sufficiency requires that all tech fields be duplicated---while other will be stuck as janitors, etc. People who are deficient enough to not be able to do useful work cannot be "homeless." At some point it seems like such a society can have very little room for free riders, particularly in the early decades.

Unless it's a monasterium founded by some rich society not for rational reasons.

So, "A Crusade of Martian Templars from the Red Planet".

Or "18 Bronze Fighters from Sky Shaolin"

Edited October 10, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Green Baron]

It must be thoroughly planned and tested before the start. All the technology, cycles, and so on must work friction less.

It must be segmented like an ship on the ocean (more complicated of course) and redundant enough so that a hull breach will only affect a segment and the rest will still work.

People's mental and physical health as well as their actions must be constantly monitored to secure the existence of the rest. Noticeable peculiarities or abnormalities will have to be treated. Without killing anybody of course. Even Musk should get a chance.But no smoking at any time, understood ?

Fortunately, just in case i haven't pointed that out yet, nobody will go nowhere any time soon(tm).

:-)

Edit: i stay here.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Green Baron

[kerbiloid]

2 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

But no smoking at any time, understood ?

With their industrial power the smoking would be a negligible source of wastes.

There is another problem. A chewing gum.

[tater]

It's funny to see people who think that transport is the limiting factor... cheap enough, and Mars can be colonized. Even given life support as perfectly reliable, food production---heck, everything else---the psychological and sociological aspects of such a colony are actually the hard problem to solve (and those fields are pretty non-rigorous at this point in time, so working it out ahead of time is a non-starter).

[kerbiloid]

I don't mean to be a pest, but the same. A monasterium, a place of pedant'ic discipline, obedience, a lot of dull work, and prayers  as a chosen lifestyle.
"Dark Cultists' Invasion From Mars".

[Green Baron]

Guys, really ?

How many farms and vineyards were needed in high and late medieval times to keep a group of monks fed and the buildings intact ? A monastery could literally plunder the surroundings empty. Social differences were really high. And you want something like that on a hypothetical high technology outpost with the best educated (and/or richest) individuals ?

Come on :-)

[Terwin]

26 minutes ago, tater said:

It's funny to see people who think that transport is the limiting factor... cheap enough, and Mars can be colonized. Even given life support as perfectly reliable, food production---heck, everything else---the psychological and sociological aspects of such a colony are actually the hard problem to solve (and those fields are pretty non-rigorous at this point in time, so working it out ahead of time is a non-starter).

If it gets cheap enough, it well could be... Imagine the advantages of a low-g retirement community.(although that may work better on the moon, unless maintenance is a lot cheaper on Mars).

Of course that may require costs on-par with trans-Atlantic shipping(which seems questionable just from a crew cost perspective).

[DerekL1963]

49 minutes ago, tater said:

It's funny to see people who think that transport is the limiting factor... cheap enough, and Mars can be colonized. Even given life support as perfectly reliable, food production---heck, everything else---the psychological and sociological aspects of such a colony are actually the hard problem to solve (and those fields are pretty non-rigorous at this point in time, so working it out ahead of time is a non-starter).

I've been trying to tell people that for years.  On a list of problems that must be solved to establish a Mars colony (let alone a self sufficient one), transport is a footnote in an appendix.

[Green Baron]

Well, probably because it is unnecessary to think about a selection process for the initial tenants and the sociology to keep them all in positive vibes before the technological solutions aren't even on the horizon.

The logistics are surely no footnote, they are the basis for getting stuff there and the initial step. Constructing and safely running such a colony is the main problem and that is faaaar away, that is where the rub is.

imo

Edited October 10, 2018 by Green Baron

[CharmSado]

I believe Mars will be more spacious than Antarctica, so in case of any eventuality on earth, Mars can take us all compared to Antarctica. However, something in me says Antarctica is better for us.