Suggestion: "Parked" mode

[Guest]

Apparently surface interactions are really super hard -- things just keep sliding around, or jumping up into the air when tabbing into the scene or coming out of timewarp, and so on (most recently on a really beautiful base I built on Duna).

If this can't be reliably fixed in physics, how about a workaround? Add a "Parked" mode to craft. This can be toggled when landed and surface speed is 0.0, same trigger as being able to save. When parked, a craft is simply immobile, unaffected by gravity or thrust, and considered a fixed object. This ought to be pretty simple to implement.

This could cause some unnatural behaviour when a moving object crashes into it, but it's still less unnatural, not to mention miles less annoying, than what we get now.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Guest

[Dark Lion]

Not sure how "simple" that would be to implement, but I like the idea. This might add some issues with roving structures, but perhaps it could invoke a "parking brake" system for rovers as well... It's not just bases that fling themselves skyward when unpacked.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dark Lion said:

Not sure how "simple" that would be to implement, but I like the idea. This might add some issues with roving structures, but perhaps it could invoke a "parking brake" system for rovers as well... It's not just bases that fling themselves skyward when unpacked.

I can't believe it would be that hard to fix an object's velocity to 0 within the local frame of reference. That's all this would do. 

And I thought that it should be available for all (controllable) craft. Select the command pod, right-click, and there's a toggle button in the list for "parked." 

 

[Superfluous J]

20 minutes ago, Brikoleur said:

I thought that it should be available for all (controllable) craft. Select the command pod, right-click, and there's a toggle button in the list for "parked

Our more simply, have it automatically happen after 1 second of immobility (or some minimum speed like 0.1m/s) if the brakes are on, and turn off whenever the brakes are released.

Regardless of if the craft has wheels.

Edited November 23, 2018 by 5thHorseman

[Guest]

Just now, 5thHorseman said:

Our more simply, have it automatically happen after 1 second of immobility (or some minimum speed like 0.1m/s) if the brakes are on, and turn off whenever the brakes are released.

Actually yeah, why not? That would be simpler.

[mattinoz]

Parked could have an advanced mode that also leveled the craft if an engineer is on board. Well within range anyway. 

[SlinkyMcman]

3 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

I can't believe it would be that hard to fix an object's velocity to 0 within the local frame of reference. That's all this would do. 

And I thought that it should be available for all (controllable) craft. Select the command pod, right-click, and there's a toggle button in the list for "parked." 

 

Since the terrain is a computed property based on a bodies elevation map and a variable sample rate, this would cause all sorts of different issues. Static terrain features in game are clipped below the surface to hide the jankyness of the implementation. I think the way landing gear is currently coded is Kerbal's best attempt to do exactly what you want, it's just really hard.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, SlinkyMcman said:

Since the terrain is a computed property based on a bodies elevation map and a variable sample rate, this would cause all sorts of different issues. Static terrain features in game are clipped below the surface to hide the jankyness of the implementation. I think the way landing gear is currently coded is Kerbal's best attempt to do exactly what you want, it's just really hard.

I’m suggesting that parked craft be removed from physics calculations altogether. This is clearly not how landing gear works.

[klgraham1013]

If it could be done, this is a good idea.  I wonder if there could also be a break limit, where in if a certain amount of force is presented on the craft, park would disengage, reapplying physics.  This would allow for the possibility of a runaway rover still causing damage if it crashed into a parked craft.

Edited November 24, 2018 by klgraham1013

[Guest]

Collision detection could still be left on. If a collision was detected, physics would be re-enabled. Only the initial impulse of the collision would be into an immovable object, if more parts collided, things would bounce and explode as usual.

Docking ports might have to be dealt with separately. If it was a mode that was explicitly set though, then you could simply require craft to be unparked for docking.

I wonder if this could be modded in? I write software for a living since decades but have only ever worked on boring client-server enterprise and cloud software... would be a quite a learning curve.

[Gargamel]

19 hours ago, SlinkyMcman said:

Since the terrain is a computed property based on a bodies elevation map and a variable sample rate, this would cause all sorts of different issues. Static terrain features in game are clipped below the surface to hide the jankyness of the implementation. I think the way landing gear is currently coded is Kerbal's best attempt to do exactly what you want, it's just really hard.

I believe it's the near future mods have gear that already do this. 

[SlinkyMcman]

5 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

Collision detection could still be left on. If a collision was detected, physics would be re-enabled. Only the initial impulse of the collision would be into an immovable object, if more parts collided, things would bounce and explode as usual.

Docking ports might have to be dealt with separately. If it was a mode that was explicitly set though, then you could simply require craft to be unparked for docking.

I wonder if this could be modded in? I write software for a living since decades but have only ever worked on boring client-server enterprise and cloud software... would be a quite a learning curve.

So i think really the solution for sliding around would be to implement variable friction quotients depending on the speed of travel and increase joint strength slightly to compensate(I read the wiki on Stribeck curve). I started using airbrakes as landing gear and those are even more slippery than the real thing. But implementing a whole system purely as a workaround for bad landing gear seems like a mistake, just fix the gear.

Your idea to suspend physics calculations for the ground/gravity would be a fantastic way to implement permanent installations, with the height above terrain taking precedence over altitude when loading in, you wouldn't have to do physics easing in on the craft, since some amount of clipping into the surface would be fine, and may even help with the structure's immersion. The problem I see is Kraken attacks when you hit remove the parking break and your vehicle is floating or underground,  because the world changed on it's own. Never allowing a craft to un-park would be a fix, but it isn't really what you're looking for(or is it with the Duna base?). The docking port problem seems easy, just give parked crafts alignment precedence over all other craft types.

I started doing some science with save files may be back with some results.

3 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I believe it's the near future mods have gear that already do this. 

It probably shouldn't be super difficult to implement some sort of pylons/gear that lock your location.

[Gargamel]

1 minute ago, SlinkyMcman said:

It probably shouldn't be super difficult to implement some sort of pylons/gear that lock your location.

Well I feel silly, I thought your comment was responding to

 

On 11/23/2018 at 5:02 PM, mattinoz said:

Parked could have an advanced mode that also leveled the craft if an engineer is on board. Well within range anyway. 

and not @Brikoleur.   My bad.

So yes, the near future (I believe) mod pack has landing legs that can be leveled.  So yeah, this should be a stock thing. 

[SlinkyMcman]

4 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

Well I feel silly, I thought your comment was responding to

To be fair I'm not entirely sure what I'm talking about at any particular point either.

[FleshJeb]

I think the fundamental problem right now is that wheels/legs seem to be OK at damping velocity but not acceleration (or maybe bump and jerk). I think the existence of landing-leg cannons are proof of this. The physics easing on load can only mitigate this so much if parts can't respond in a realistic way.

Parked mode is likewise a kludge, but it may be a useful one. If it's not possible to alter the wheel/leg behavior sufficiently, maybe not loading craft in IS a reasonable answer. However, it comes with a whole host of other potential problems that I don't even want to list right now.

My suggestion for a "parked mode" wouldn't suspend loading a craft into physics, but merely have it placed on invisible launch clamps. Of course, things on launch clamps can bend and flex in destructive ways, so it would take a bit of fiddling, but it might be a workable answer.

[Guest]

It is a kludge, but I am starting to feel it might be a necessary one. I like your invisible launch clamp idea though, it’s less kludgey.

One advantage of my kludge though is that it would help a lot with base related framerate drops. My computer is pretty beefy but I get a drop into single digits with, say, five craft on a Duna surface base.

@SlinkyMcman the issue isn’t just with landing gear. Anything sitting on the ground slides.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Guest

[mattinoz]

10 hours ago, Gargamel said:

Well I feel silly, I thought your comment was responding to

 

and not @Brikoleur.   My bad.

So yes, the near future (I believe) mod pack has landing legs that can be leveled.  So yeah, this should be a stock thing. 

I did manage to get about 5 degrees of tilt out of a standard set of legs on 2.5m base by adding them individually, dialling up the dampers then adjusting springs.. Important to dial up the dampers or it's easy to launch craft.

 

2 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

It is a kludge, but I am starting to feel it might be a necessary one. I like your invisible launch clamp idea though, it’s less kludgey.

One advantage of my kludge though is that it would help a lot with base related framerate drops. My computer is pretty beefy but I get a drop into single digits with, say, five craft on a Duna surface base.

@SlinkyMcman the issue isn’t just with landing gear. Anything sitting on the ground slides.

Couldn't the solution be both Invisble ground clamps and tweak the physics bubble to a much tighter radius when parked vessels are nearby. even as tight as 1m larger than the craft then at least you could get close and the engine only deal with the 2 that are close.

[maja]

Something like this idea is implemented for USI parts (Ground tether), so it's possible.

I can do it as a standalone mod, if you want. Not the exact copy of the Ground tether of course, although the core functionality is realy simple, that there isn't much to change.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, maja said:

Something like this idea is implemented for USI parts (Ground tether), so it's possible.

I can do it as a standalone mod, if you want. Not the exact copy of the Ground tether of course, although the core functionality is realy simple, that there isn't much to change.

I would love that!

I also bet that this would be a popular mod for anyone who likes to build bases. Thank you in advance!

[klgraham1013]

The more I read this thread, the more I wish @SQUAD read these threads.

[Vexillar]

Great idea! There has to be something in this.  Once a craft has achieved a stable landing on the surface, if on re-load / physics range the game logic (as it appears) needs to re-establish its position relative to the recalculated surface, then the game logic should move (translate) the parts without adding momentum or over much stress between parts.

At the moment there are situations that, when loading, cause a feedback between stress and momentum, resulting in some parts trying to attain high velocity, breaking connections with other parts and colliding.  If the logic knows that it is dealing with a landed object, rather than a speeding crater-buggy jumping off a ridge, things could be kept more under control?

[Guest]

I don't know how KSP works under the hood at all, but yeah, that could be a side benefit. In my view there's not much point wasting precious CPU cycles simulating physics for stationary objects anyway.

I get a feeling a part of why landed craft are so hard to deal with might be because of the sheer difficulty of determining whether any forces that don't completely balance out are acting on it, and little rounding errors will stop the forces that should be balanced out from balancing out, which gives us drift. Add to that the complications with the surface mesh itself, and I can see how it could get really hairy fast.

In other words, I think that if this was soluble through physics simulation alone, @SQUAD would have solved it many moons (muns?) ago. Which is why I think a kludge of some kind might be needed. If the kludge brings additional side benefits (like lowered CPU load around bases, or taming the jumping problem), then so much the better.

If one of you modding wizards manages to implement this even at a proof-of-concept level, it might be worth making noises towards the dev team about it. Because drifting while landed, and landing gear in general, has been a problem ever since I started playing KSP (which wasn't quite at the beginning, but in 1.0 anyway.)

[maja]

Don't worry guys, Parking brake mod will be done. It's in the line with other mod's I'm maintaining, so I plan to whip up something very soon.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, maja said:

Don't worry guys, Parking brake mod will be done. It's in the line with other mod's I'm maintaining, so I plan to whip up something very soon.

Now I will keep refreshing this page every 5 minutes until it's done. 

[klgraham1013]

2 hours ago, maja said:

Don't worry guys, Parking brake mod will be done. It's in the line with other mod's I'm maintaining, so I plan to whip up something very soon.

You are a hero.