Lisias

[>= 1.3.1] KAX - Kerbal Aircraft Expansion KAX — Under Lisias' Management — v2.8.0.2 [2019-1006]

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@Lisias, sorry, but what exactly does this mod do? Would you mind adding a description to the top post?

(from the pictures posted I'm really looking forward to this mod by the way) 

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On 1/23/2019 at 12:09 PM, EchoLima said:

@Lisias, sorry, but what exactly does this mod do? Would you mind adding a description to the top post?

(from the pictures posted I'm really looking forward to this mod by the way) 

Yeah, this is totally my fault. I really need to make a proper front page for this Add'On. I will fix this tonight. 

Edited by Lisias
tasting my own medicine :)

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On 1/22/2019 at 6:43 PM, Lisias said:

(I should convert all the new KAX' Sample Crafts to 1.3.1, by the way - I did them on 1.4.1 for (my) convenience but I kind regret it now).

I totally regret it now. :P I used a new part on 1.4.1 for the "Bombs", so the new crafts (and bombs) are not convertible to 1.3.1. I spent a lot of time trimming that things, I'm not exactly happy in redoing all that work to make it work on 1.3.1. But the crafts don't use anything 1.4 specific, so I'm converting them to 1.3.1. And learnt something new:

FormatException: Input string was not in the correct format
  at System.UInt32.Parse (System.String s) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ShipConstruct.LoadShip (.ConfigNode root) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ShipConstruction.LoadShip (System.String filePath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at EditorLogic.StartEditor (Boolean isRestart) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at EditorLogic.ShipToLoadSelected (System.String path, LoadType loadType) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at KSP.UI.Screens.CraftBrowserDialog.onPipelineFinished (.ConfigNode n, KSP.UI.Screens.CraftEntry sItem, LoadType loadType) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at KSP.UI.Screens.CraftBrowserDialog+<pipeSelectedItem>c__AnonStorey1B8.<>m__89E (.ConfigNode n) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at KSPUpgradePipeline.Process (.ConfigNode n, System.String saveName, LoadContext loadContext, .Callback`1 onSucceed, .Callback`2 onFail) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at KSP.UI.Screens.CraftBrowserDialog.pipeSelectedItem (KSP.UI.Screens.CraftEntry sItem, LoadType loadType) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at KSP.UI.Screens.CraftBrowserDialog.onButtonLoad () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.Events.InvokableCall.Invoke (System.Object[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.Events.InvokableCallList.Invoke (System.Object[] parameters) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.Events.UnityEventBase.Invoke (System.Object[] parameters) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.Events.UnityEvent.Invoke () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.UI.Button.Press () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.UI.Button.OnPointerClick (UnityEngine.EventSystems.PointerEventData eventData) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.EventSystems.ExecuteEvents.Execute (IPointerClickHandler handler, UnityEngine.EventSystems.BaseEventData eventData) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.EventSystems.ExecuteEvents.Execute[IPointerClickHandler] (UnityEngine.GameObject target, UnityEngine.EventSystems.BaseEventData eventData, UnityEngine.EventSystems.EventFunction`1 functor) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:Internal_LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.Logger:LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.Debug:LogException(Exception)
UnityEngine.EventSystems.ExecuteEvents:Execute(GameObject, BaseEventData, EventFunction`1)
UnityEngine.EventSystems.StandaloneInputModule:ProcessMousePress(MouseButtonEventData)
UnityEngine.EventSystems.StandaloneInputModule:ProcessMouseEvent(Int32)
UnityEngine.EventSystems.StandaloneInputModule:ProcessMouseEvent()
UnityEngine.EventSystems.StandaloneInputModule:Process()
UnityEngine.EventSystems.EventSystem:Update()

That kind and pleasant Exception is only logged on the Player.log file (the one used by Unity itself) while trying to load the Bombers after "converting" them to 1.3.1 (r/1\.4\.1/1.3.1/g), and luckily it happened on the second part on the file, so it's easy to pinpoint.

Some bit bashing in on the order, as it appears. :D 

— — POST — EDIT — — — 

TweakScale 2.3.6 is working fine on KSP 1.3.1 . V2.3.9. borked, I didn't cared to find why - 2.3.6 is the first version I tested (I use a binary tree algorithm when searching for things) that worked.

 

Edited by Lisias
post edit

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5 hours ago, Lisias said:

Yeah, this is totally my fault. I really need to make a proper front page for this mod. I will fix this tonight. 

Alternatively, if you don't feel like writing up an entirely new OP, You could simply link to Keptin's OP for the original KAX thread...

 

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On 1/23/2019 at 7:13 PM, Numberyellow said:

Alternatively, if you don't feel like writing up an entirely new OP, You could simply link to Keptin's OP for the original KAX thread...

That was not the problem. I already have the description on the github page. What was happening is that I spent too much time with some non directly related issues in the last 10 days, and too few playing KSP. And I like to open my Add'On pages with something that is my work. And KAX deserves something really nice. :-)

Edited by Lisias
tasting my own medicine :)

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I know you haven't seen my work yet, but i'll make you a deal....get me a guaranteed working version of KAX for 1.3.1. and i'll build you a custom aircraft, using KAX parts, to show off. I assure you, i am (or at least i was) VERY good..

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

I know you haven't seen my work yet, but i'll make you a deal....get me a guaranteed working version of KAX for 1.3.1. and i'll build you a custom aircraft, using KAX parts, to show off. I assure you, i am (or at least i was) VERY good..

DEAL! :) 

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Cool. I've sent you an invite to a PM conversation, where i was showing off my work to a friend of mine. This is so you can get a look at what i can do. Also, you might want to look at this thread:

 

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Quick question regarding the aerosport engine... should the drag really be 15kN+? Can't get above 90m/s at all!

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6 hours ago, Shaun said:

Quick question regarding the aerosport engine... should the drag really be 15kN+? Can't get above 90m/s at all!

90m/s ? Is more os less what a Cesna Caravan does. and this engine appears to fit in this class of airplanes. This is pretty decent, I say. I made a quick&dirty Caravan alike and managed to take off at 30m/s and climb at ~10m/s at 64m/s airspeed. Pretty decent, really.

Your main enemy here is not the drag, at that low speeds weight is main your problem than anything else. And speed is your enemy when using low powered, low RPM engines with twin small blades. This happens because there're a limit in which the propellers can spin (the tips can't break the sound barrier, or things stop to work), and the fast the airplane is flying, smaller is the difference between the airspeed and the speed the propellers can give you - so, smaller the effective thrust.

screenshot37.jpg

You can check this by flying level at, let's say, 1200m high. Then cutting your engine to zero, and when your airplane looses enough speed to start to dive, give pull power. At my "Karavan", this engine gave me 21.5kN of thrust until about 82m/s, when then the thrust started to drop. I managed to get about 20.5 or 20.4 kN of thrust as I get near to 90m/s, and it gets below 19kN while diving and reaching near 95 m/s.

screenshot38.jpg

So, really, your enemy is not the drag (it's there, but it's not the main issue). It's the power curve over airspeed.

Edited by Lisias
hit "save' too soon.

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Lisias

5 hours ago, Lisias said:

90m/s ? Is more os less what a Cesna Caravan does. and this engine appears to fit in this class of airplanes. This is pretty decent, I say. I made a quick&dirty Caravan alike and managed to take off at 30m/s and climb at ~10m/s at 64m/s airspeed. Pretty decent, really.

Your main enemy here is not the drag, at that low speeds weight is main your problem than anything else. And speed is your enemy when using low powered, low RPM engines with twin small blades. This happens because there're a limit in which the propellers can spin (the tips can't break the sound barrier, or things stop to work), and the fast the airplane is flying, smaller is the difference between the airspeed and the speed the propellers can give you - so, smaller the effective thrust.

screenshot37.jpg

You can check this by flying level at, let's say, 1200m high. Then cutting your engine to zero, and when your airplane looses enough speed to start to dive, give pull power. At my "Karavan", this engine gave me 21.5kN of thrust until about 82m/s, when then the thrust started to drop. I managed to get about 20.5 or 20.4 kN of thrust as I get near to 90m/s, and it gets below 19kN while diving and reaching near 95 m/s.

screenshot38.jpg

So, really, your enemy is not the drag (it's there, but it's not the main issue). It's the power curve over airspeed.

If I make a light aircraft with two Aerosports, about 7 tonnes in total, the aircraft can not reach over 100m/s, while the likes of a Cessna Titan can reach around 120m/s cruise. If you had a Juno (20kN static), you could propel your little plane quite fast. Now I understand the drop off is a lot larger for a prop, but the Aerosport drag is wayyy to high. Use the debug/cheat menu, aero, then show in menus. Click on the engine, the drag will be close to 15kN, which is probably more than the rest of your aircraft combined. This is more drag than even Mk3 parts, and more drag than any other prop or turboprop I’ve come across in KSP.

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7 tonnes is not exactly light...

Also, a Cessna Titan has a max take off weight of 3.810Kg, just slightly above half of your "light" aircraft. The specs also say it has a maximum speed of 430Km/h (+-120m/s) at 4900m.

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23 minutes ago, PCanas said:

7 tonnes is not exactly light...

Also, a Cessna Titan has a max take off weight of 3.810Kg, just slightly above half of your "light" aircraft. The specs also say it has a maximum speed of 430Km/h (+-120m/s) at 4900m.

Yes but the Titan’s engines are only 375hp, which works out to approximately 4kN. The aero sport does way more. Stock KSP’s drag is already multiplied by 8 to compensate for the sheer power of the jets in game. A prop doing 15kN of drag while only producing 20kN of thrust is ridiculous. There is a thrust limiter for a reason.

What I’m saying is the aerosport gives a lot of thrust when taking off but the drag quickly takes over. Could just be the aerosport is an overpowered engine with huge drag and ISP to offset. I don’t believe the other props work like this, and certainly not the turboprops. 40kN on a 7T aircraft is a lot. I understand props are limited because of the sound barrier, but this shouldn’t mean having two massive props should limit me to 90m/s, when the sound barrier is at 340m/s.

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8 hours ago, Shaun said:

If I make a light aircraft with two Aerosports, about 7 tonnes in total, the aircraft can not reach over 100m/s, while the likes of a Cessna Titan can reach around 120m/s cruise. If you had a Juno (20kN static), you could propel your little plane quite fast. Now I understand the drop off is a lot larger for a prop, but the Aerosport drag is wayyy to high. Use the debug/cheat menu, aero, then show in menus. Click on the engine, the drag will be close to 15kN, which is probably more than the rest of your aircraft combined. This is more drag than even Mk3 parts, and more drag than any other prop or turboprop I’ve come across in KSP.

Yep. Welcome to the Piston Engines. It's almost like that on real life. :)

The problem is the Power Curve. Your thrust goes down as your airspeed goes up (not to mention altitude), so no really maters how many engines you put on the vessel, as it reaches a critical speed, the thrust decays enough to prevent further acceleration.

Junos have another Power Curve, more resilient to airspeed. But in the end, they also chokes: you can'r get any faster than 800m/s using Junos. Give a peek on the Fastest Juno-powered aircraft Thread, there're good information there.

Additionally, remember that Propellers are anything but fancy rotating wings, and as such, they induces parasitic drag. It's the reason propelled engines have a higher drag than jets with the same size.

5 hours ago, Shaun said:

What I’m saying is the aerosport gives a lot of thrust when taking off but the drag quickly takes over. 

Exactly as it happens on real life. :)

On real-life, things works slightly different, mas since KSP is not an Emulator that aims to mimic the target, but a Simulator where only the ending results really matters, this is good enough.

Edited by Lisias
Of course, tyops!

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Spoiler
14 hours ago, Lisias said:

screenshot37.jpg

screenshot38.jpg

 

Just for fun, I reinstalled KAX and tried throwing this craft together (what are those wing panels, BTW? They look like the stock size, but the texture looks like APP?) and take it for a spin in my FAR-enabled game.

I know this isn't the discussion but:

1 -- where are you putting fuel? None of the parts pictured contain fuel by default (wings?)
2 -- FAR does *not* like this design. The COM winds up being super-high. Even strapping a small tank to the belly it behaves badly. Maybe the STX cockpit and that tail boom (STX or APP?) don't have proper configs.

The engine itself seemed to behave great -- though like lots of small craft in FAR, it seems wildly easy to achieve some weirdly high speeds. Well over 100m/s. Obviously the lack of stock's atmosphere "soup" contributes to that.

I'm still learning nuances of FAR, and maybe I'll post my craft over there for some troubleshooting. I'd love to get plainly simple real-world craft like this to fly just as well as hyper-powered SSTO monstrosities. ;)

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47 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

1 -- where are you putting fuel? None of the parts pictured contain fuel by default (wings?)

On the wings.  I think it's a AirplanePlus part. And Craft Manager told me I used a SXT part on the thing.

 

48 minutes ago, Beetlecat said:

2 -- FAR does *not* like this design. The COM winds up being super-high. Even strapping a small tank to the belly it behaves badly. Maybe the STX cockpit and that tail boom (STX or APP?) don't have proper configs.

FAR is somewhat far from my grasp! #tumdumtss :sticktongue:

I didn't tested this thing with anything else, I just strapped some parts while looking on a Caravan picture and this thing ended up flying by luck :D . I'm sure there're a lot of improvements that can be made.

webdsc07937.jpg?itok=EghJxNtz&timestamp=

There's a download link for the craft here:

http://ksp.lisias.net/showcase/add-ons/KAX/parts/engines/A7-AeroSport/Thrust-Curve-Demo/screenshot35#main-img

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1 hour ago, Lisias said:

On the wings.  I think it's a AirplanePlus part. And Craft Manager told me I used a SXT part on the thing.

===

There's a download link for the craft here:

http://ksp.lisias.net/showcase/add-ons/KAX/parts/engines/A7-AeroSport/Thrust-Curve-Demo/screenshot35#main-img

Aha! I must have missed those wing bits. Maybe they don't show up sorted properly in the part browser. Thanks for sharing that craft file-- though it's a wickedly simple build.

I know it's likely not a thing that'll be fixed, but the engine doesn't quite line up with the SXT cockpit--it overlaps just a hair, and you can see the cross-section while in the cockpit. So either the SXT Clyde cockpit is slightly small, or the engine is slightly big around at that point. Maybe I'll just clip in a thin, scaled fuel tank for more weight at that end to cover the seam. ;)

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3 hours ago, Lisias said:

Yep. Welcome to the Piston Engines. It's almost like that on real life. :)

The problem is the Power Curve. Your thrust goes down as your airspeed goes up (not to mention altitude), so no really maters how many engines you put on the vessel, as it reaches a critical speed, the thrust decays enough to prevent further acceleration.

Junos have another Power Curve, more resilient to airspeed. But in the end, they also chokes: you can'r get any faster than 800m/s using Junos. Give a peek on the Fastest Juno-powered aircraft Thread, there're good information there.

Additionally, remember that Propellers are anything but fancy rotating wings, and as such, they induces parasitic drag. It's the reason propelled engines have a higher drag than jets with the same size.

Exactly as it happens on real life. :)

On real-life, things works slightly different, mas since KSP is not an Emulator that aims to mimic the target, but a Simulator where only the ending results really matters, this is good enough.

I agree with you and I’m aware of the drag created by props, but is it just too much though? The Kitty can produce up to 65kN and the drag maxes out at maybe 5kN(?)

While I would expect power to drop fairly quickly, I wouldn’t expect the drop to be so sudden. Most performance props maintain speed at altitude with only 55-75% throttle, and can maintain better speeds at higher altitude to a point. It may just be the aerosport isn’t turbocharged or has a good leaning simulation, but who knows. It would just be nice if I could go a tad faster so I could throttle down, maintain a decent speed and get a good fuel economy.

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6 hours ago, Shaun said:

I agree with you and I’m aware of the drag created by props, but is it just too much though? The Kitty can produce up to 65kN and the drag maxes out at maybe 5kN(?)

While I would expect power to drop fairly quickly, I wouldn’t expect the drop to be so sudden. Most performance props maintain speed at altitude with only 55-75% throttle, and can maintain better speeds at higher altitude to a point. It may just be the aerosport isn’t turbocharged or has a good leaning simulation, but who knows. It would just be nice if I could go a tad faster so I could throttle down, maintain a decent speed and get a good fuel economy.

Real Life propellers also have adjustable pitch and and real life engines has fuel/air mixture. :) All of this is abstracted on KSP.

Performance props adjusts the throttle in order to keep the engine on the best fuel/power rated RPM. The props are then pitched to get the needed thrust given that RPM. The fuel/air mixture lever is adjusted so you don't inject more fuel than is possible to burn given the current altitude' air pressure and oxygen availability, and so avoid wasting fuel by throwing it away with the exhaust.

Throttle is not the same as Thrust. Stock KSP models Thrust, and the rest is simulated by other means (as drag). You need Firespitter if you want something more similar to real-life - but even Firespitter don't have propellers with adjustable pitch neither engines with fuel/air mixture levers.

That lever on the Glide? It sets Thrust, not the engine's throttle!

Kitty is a TurboProp, not a Piston engine. It's a completely different engine, that must be simulated differently than Piston engines! And the thing was modeled by another guy, so he could had choose to simulate the engine limitations by other means. Give a look on this video, it will explain how a turboprop works!

POST EDIT: The A7 is a turboprop too! So a direct comparison to the Kitty is adequated, my apologies! 

I made a throughly research on stock engines and compared them to what apparently were the real-life equivalent, and apparently KSP engines are modeled to be equivalent to the thrust of the RL counterpart.

The J404 appears to be the Kerbal equivalent of the F404 RL Jet Engine. And they both have 85kN of static thrust. This is the engine used by the F18 Hornet (it takes two)

The Cessna Citation uses two 18.2 kN jet engines.

Kitty is a small TurboProp, and it has 65kN of trust? Sounds excessive to me. The A7 definitely looks good to me.

I just checked again some material, and (Re)learnt that kN is usually the "net thrust" of the engine (engine power * drag * prop efficiency), while the raw power is given in kW. While by definition 1kW == 1kN, we can't just take the raw power of the engine and use it as thrust! Remember, KSP models engine THRUST, not power. 

Kitty is just too small of an engine and with too small of a propeller to give you 64kN of THRUST.

 

7 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

I know it's likely not a thing that'll be fixed, but the engine doesn't quite line up with the SXT cockpit--it overlaps just a hair, and you can see the cross-section while in the cockpit. So either the SXT Clyde cockpit is slightly small, or the engine is slightly big around at that point. Maybe I'll just clip in a thin, scaled fuel tank for more weight at that end to cover the seam. ;)

Yep. Will not be fixed because it's not broken! :sticktongue: (couldn't resist. :) ).

I just checked, that cockpit is called Clyde, and it's from SXT. And the front mount is non-stock,  it have a 1.175 bulkhead while the A7 is a stock 1.250m.

But you still have options! :)

Check this images (click on them to go to the slide with the caption):

screenshot39.jpg
(link)

screenshot40.jpg
(link)

Edited by Lisias
POST EDIT

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13 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

Hey @Lisias, do you ever check your PM's?

As time allows. :) RL can be a real pain in the SAS sometimes. :(

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Posted (edited)
On 1/21/2019 at 3:53 PM, Lisias said:

Soon as Possible. There're still some improvements to be made [...] before reaching CKAN

Will it be named as KAX v3.0 or as some new KAX-L?

Edited by flart

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1 hour ago, flart said:

Will it be named as KAX v3.0 or as some new KAX-L?

It will be KAX, no mater the version or the fork's name. Think of 'KAX" as the Brand Name, and "KAX/L" the current implementation filling the Brand.

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Is it possible to add reverse trust on electric prop?

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