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KSP Loading... Preview: The Δv per Stage Display

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8 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

If you keep reading you'll notice I agree with you. ;)  My concerns were about the level of unnecessary visual clutter causing distraction to players dont know what staging even is yet, that we allow them in the first hour to get a handle on things like flying straight without flipping and hitting the space bar at the right time before we load on a lot of information they dont quite need yet. Looking more closely at how Squad has laid things out Im not so worried about that. 

I don't consider data to be "clutter."

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6 minutes ago, tater said:

I don't consider data to be "clutter."

I know its a shocking thing on the internet but I am agreeing with you!

Edited by Pthigrivi

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40 minutes ago, tater said:

I think there's a legitimate value to keeping screen clutter way down so folks can focus on what's immediately necessary to learn. Upgrading the VAB can happen pretty easily after the 3rd or 5th launch, right around the time when new players might start thinking about landing on the mun and making more reliable, more efficient rockets. 

 

16 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

If you keep reading you'll notice I agree with you. ;)  My concerns were about the level of unnecessary visual clutter causing distraction to players dont know what staging even is yet, that we allow them in the first hour to get a handle on things like flying straight without flipping and hitting the space bar at the right time before we load on a lot of information they dont quite need yet. Looking more closely at how Squad has laid things out Im not so worried about that. 

I re-quoted the bit we're talking about.

I disagree that even from the first flight data is somehow clutter, or scary. The opposite. They're new to all these things, and just seeing that more dv means they can go higher teaches something.

I suggested a sort of teaching tool mode where Werner chimes in waving a pointer at a chalkboard. I think I made a crappy drawing of it ages ago... can't find it.

That can have the right number written on it.

The suborbital can say ~<2200 m/s (whatever it is)

orbital might be ~2300 m/s (more with drag/gravity losses?)

Escape is something over 3k.

They see the doodle, then they can chack vs the numbers.

 

 

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2 hours ago, XLjedi said:

Which old thread would that be?  ...are there more than 10 people on it?  I'll read it.

lol he thinks its only one thread. start with the devnotes from around the 0.24 era and keep reading till the present day. Also any thread about porkjet's unused overhaul. No I won't link this for you do your own googling.

 

2 hours ago, XLjedi said:

Been playin a couple years, and first post here was March of 2017.  Do I have to predate the 1.0 release to not be late to the party?

lol that explains a lot. Irrelevant only speaking up about it now is simply too late, and given that you have only been here less than a year you clearly don't have a good read of the community to say "nobody asked for this".
 

2 hours ago, XLjedi said:

I've also pointed out in another thread, that part continuity is also an issue in the Mission Builder Era.  Any mission with one of those old parts included will be destroyed to new installs if/when the part is deprecated.  From what I've seen, they don't just change the look/mesh of the part, they also use a new name on the actual part file.  And presumably, new installs just won't have the old part name.  So missions that people have created are being destroyed to new players as the part files change. 

LOL AHAHAHA! Is he for real!? XD The Mission making scene is dead on arrival no one wanted it as implemented and no one is using outside a handful of whiteknights that want to justify thier $15 it is simply not an reasonable case not to revamp the parts.

Edited by passinglurker
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Yeah, when the aircraft parts got done, and looked so nice many of the rocket-centric people (me, for example) wanted to see the rocket parts get redone to simply not look awful anymore.

I bought MH, though when I just did a fresh install I forgot to add it---the part I really sorta liked was the Munar Module pod... except the RCS is all wrong for it as I recall (it makes it tumble, unless it ever got fixed). The missions part might have been useful if it had career hooks, so modders could make non-player ships appear, etc, but as it stands, I've never even looked at them (nor will I, I think).

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16 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

lol that explains a lot. Irrelevant only speaking up about it now is simply too late, and given that you have only been here less than a year you clearly don't have a good read of the community to say "nobody asked for this".

By my read of the calendar, March of 2017 was about 1.75 years ago.  

As for the Mission Builder...  It is pretty sadly DOA, that has become apparent.  

 

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3 minutes ago, XLjedi said:

By my read of the calendar, March of 2017 was about 1.75 years ago.

Fair I read that wrong I will own up to that

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Jesus, @passinglurker, there is no need whatsoever to be so rude to people on this forum.

@XLjedi, There is a link to some of Porkjet's (really quite beautiful) overhauled parts here, if you're interested:


 

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This is a community though. We should all be as welcoming and helpful to folks new and old as we can be even when we disagree.

Anyway, on the topic of the dV map, there must be some way to integrate that into a transfer window finder. It should probably be like the info and KSPedia tab and available from multiple screens rather than locked in a specific building. So long as players could see and plan the budget for each leg without going to a browser I think they'd have what they need. 

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It's important to note that those of use who wanted the parts to have some consistency (if the aircraft/spaceplanes are gonna look like a science fiction future, vs crap from a junkyard, so should the rocket parts, or redo the planes to crapify them, if you prefer) all want the game to be better. Better for us, better for people at large so that they get to sell more copies, and make more money.

This game has held my interest for far longer than most have, I want it to do well for the people who make their living at it.

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One of the very few “KSP loadings” NOT about part revamps, and we somehow got a multi-page argument about part revamps...

What’s even more unusual, this time it’s not because @passinglurker is roasting the devs for how bad the revamps are. :/

Edited by sh1pman
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5 minutes ago, sh1pman said:

One of the very few “KSP loadings” NOT about part revamps, and we somehow got a multi-page argument about part revamps...

What’s even more unusual, this time it’s not @passinglurker is roasting the devs for how bad the revamps are. :/

I guess that's just taste for you.

When it comes to aesthetics everyone loves to talk about what style they prefer, down to tiny details, it's just human nature. Discussion isn't bad as long as we keep it civil, that way we can get stuff looking in such a way that it pleases the most people.

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Re: early game, especially dV display.

There needs to be a tutorial walkthrough early game to teach the basics of the hame, and maybe even some rocketry 101 type info. It could be done the same way the current popups work (the ones when you first create a career and first enter the VAB). Wherner could simply pop up in the beginning with a simple intro ("Welcome to Kerbal Space Center. Our goal is to learn as much as we can about our solar system. Would you like to get started right away? Or would you like some help?" Or something to that effect). Wherner can teach players how to use the buildings, manipulate parts in the editors, even a bit about the planets and dV. The idea is that it helps to build a bit of immersion and character depth ("story"). Other kerbals can chime in at times to give a bit more info along the way, like Gene mentioning how contracts work in Mission Control, or Linus explaining strategies in Administration.

All of this can be bypassed simply by telling Wherner you know what you're doing, if you'd prefer.

Of course, there are the current tutorials, but I simply haven't played them yet so I'm not sure how well they work, or how beginner friendly they are.

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Back off with the sarcasm, guys. We can express ourselves without insulting each other. 

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Yessss.....

I guess v1.6 because  1.6kDv is a quarter of the way to anywhere? :cool:

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I'm enjoying the discussion here.   We've chosen to go with unlocking the dV information right from the start in all modes.  I tend to agree that the tools should be available for players to learn with, as this is a sandbox game.  

Also, the total dV display twitchiness was recorded with beta code, and has been fixed for the upcoming release by the almighty @JPLRepo.  Should be smooth as butter.   Or your preferred lactose-free non-dairy substitute.  

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"sandbox" is one of the game modes... please don't forget Career mode. And providing players with options.

Doesn't having this much info up front set a precedent with respect to the rest of the details that Career Mode locks away, behind Kerbal skills and KSC upgrades?  Should (for example) fixing flat tires and repacking parachutes also be opened up in career-mode for any Kerbal?  I think these features are more important "later" in game progression terms, when the challenge of completing contracts to the far planets and moons really begs for the extra info and Kerbal abilities; compared to reaching the Mun, where most players will overbuild and don't have to wait long to find out if they're going to make it or not.

Give the dV number, but at the least, I would unlock the detailed per-stage info panel based on engineer skill or a tracking station upgrade.

Edited by basic.syntax

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1 hour ago, basic.syntax said:

Doesn't having this much info up front set a precedent with respect to the rest of the details that Career Mode locks away, behind Kerbal skills and KSC upgrades?  Should fixing flat tires and repacking parachutes also be made "day one" abilities?

I've always thought that but hey :D

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My opinions:

  • There is no such thing as 'too much information'. If I don't need certain information I'll just not pay attention to it.
  • There is no such thing as 'too many options'. If I don't need a particular option, I'll just ignore it.
  • I want (the option) to have dV info and per-stage details always on. I can't think of any reason why I would want it locked or hidden, for any reason, in any game mode. In the implausible circumstance that I do explicitly want them disabled, I'll gladly open a menu and change a setting.
  • If I had my way, things like 'Show aero/thermal data' would also be a toggle button in the PAW menus, and there would be game-wide toggles in the main settings to default them always on (along with things like 'Show authority toggles').

Tl;dr: Give us a way to set our own preferred defaults, please. Some of us want all options/info always on by default.

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2 hours ago, basic.syntax said:

"sandbox" is one of the game modes... please don't forget Career mode.

I believe he was referring to sandbox as in freeform.  Which all modes in KSP are.

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2 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

I believe he was referring to sandbox as in freeform.  Which all modes in KSP are.

I'm a little lost in this interpretation: in the first career contracts we're quite limited in kerbal abilities, part count, assembled dimensions, and part selection. I don't feel very free, compared to Sandbox mode with everything enabled.  But "the selection of parts in this level of career-mode can be freely assembled any way you like —" is that what you mean to highlight as the same in all modes?  

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I appreciate new additions like the next guy, but solving some of the underlying bugs and issues would go a long way too now.

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