KSP Loading... Preview: The Δv per Stage Display

[V7 Aerospace]

21 minutes ago, Dafni said:

I appreciate new additions like the next guy, but solving some of the underlying bugs and issues would go a long way too now.

After seeing a certain Youtube video which I'm sure most of us are familiar with, I can agree.

I'd be fine waiting a while without any new shiny stuff if they focused on fixing the game and the years of issues that have been slowly building.

[Pthigrivi]

3 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

My opinions:

• There is no such thing as 'too much information'. If I don't need certain information I'll just not pay attention to it.
• There is no such thing as 'too many options'. If I don't need a particular option, I'll just ignore it.
• I want (the option) to have dV info and per-stage details always on. I can't think of any reason why I would want it locked or hidden, for any reason, in any game mode. In the implausible circumstance that I do explicitly want them disabled, I'll gladly open a menu and change a setting.
• If I had my way, things like 'Show aero/thermal data' would also be a toggle button in the PAW menus, and there would be game-wide toggles in the main settings to default them always on (along with things like 'Show authority toggles').

Tl;dr: Give us a way to set our own preferred defaults, please. Some of us want all options/info always on by default.

 

17 hours ago, tater said:

I don't consider data to be "clutter."

So this isn't exactly right. Its a question of screen real-estate. You really only want information on the screen that is immediately necessary for the task at hand. You can imagine, for instance, having the altitude and time to AP, PE, AN, DN, plus all craft dV, TWR, and resource values for every active flight simultaneously on the screen. It's all data, but its not data that you necessarily need all the time or would want to just ignore. You don't even really need tabs for all that all the time. I do generally agree that in this case given the really quite elegant execution its a good thing to have per-stage dV listed by default from the beginning. I'd also love to have a tab that would show AP and PE in flight mode and have altitude automatically switch to radar when you switch focus from orbit to surface. But thats not to say as a blanket thing that withholding information from the player is always a bad thing. 
 

5 hours ago, basic.syntax said:

"sandbox" is one of the game modes... please don't forget Career mode. And providing players with options.

Doesn't having this much info up front set a precedent with respect to the rest of the details that Career Mode locks away, behind Kerbal skills and KSC upgrades?  Should (for example) fixing flat tires and repacking parachutes also be opened up in career-mode for any Kerbal?  I think these features are more important "later" in game progression terms, when the challenge of completing contracts to the far planets and moons really begs for the extra info and Kerbal abilities; compared to reaching the Mun, where most players will overbuild and don't have to wait long to find out if they're going to make it or not.

Totally agreed that we shouldn't abandon career mode in our thinking, and this goes both to unlocking game features and information. While I'd prefer to see dV listed per-stage all the time, I could see, for instance, the drop down for TWR only display for Kerbin, the Mun, and Minmus until the latter two had been landed on, at which point more detailed information for other planets would be unlocked. The same could go for dV budgets and transfer windows. This goes to the exploration process, not just unlocking parts, but unlocking information players need to progress to the next step in the game's development. 

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[tater]

1 minute ago, Pthigrivi said:

So this isn't exactly right. Its a question of screen real-estate.

Yeah, obviously I am not advocating for a mechJeb like covering of the entire screen, heck, KER takes more than I would like much of the time. Their use of the staging menu (already there along the side) seems entirely ideal, however.

[Starwaster]

On 12/7/2018 at 6:42 PM, sh1pman said:

Great! Finally! Now... You know what else will be extremely handy if Jeb wants to go to Duna? 

...

You know what it is. It involves transfer windows and planning. 

Let's not go crazy here!

[tater]

Transfer windows can also have a Werner (is there a character in another building that might be used?) animation where they point at a chalkboard (with updates maybe a it changes to a whiteboard) with a doodle of the relative position of the planets and a trajectory for a ship (with a date range), and gives a thumbs up. Alternately, the entirely lousy contract system could internalize such transfer windows, and suggest missions to works with actual launch dates added. That takes zero animation work.

Instead of the (now very dumb, IMO) "Explore" contracts for other worlds (first flyby, then things like return, or orbit or docking, even for worlds where the missions are necessarily going to have to be years apart), have things like:

Explore Duna: There's a great launch window for Duna centered around Day 237! Return science from the Space around Duna.

[GrandProtectorDark]

About the "Career and Science mode integration of DeltaV display". 

Something similar is done with auto struts.  

You only unlock those after purchasing the general construction node if you play either career or science. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by GrandProtectorDark

[Tyko]

20 hours ago, tater said:

I never use that, either, but more importantly, what science gathering (and career/science modes in general) lacks is "fog of war." Nothing is unknown in KSP with any effort. Assuming KSPedia has info on planets, then it's right there. What would be far better would be for you to start only knowing what you could know from Kerbin. So Duna would be a redish ball, the moons of Jool? Dots. The surface of Eve? ? You gain data by getting it yourself. As you visit places, you unlock data on where the atmosphere actually ends, etc. An idea I had was that you'd have a tool like the atmospheric trajectories mod, but it only unlocks when you do specific science at a given planet.

yep, this would be cool and add a great new dimension to science missions beyond just the "collect more point-> cash in for new parts -> collect more points" loop. I do this through RP by rules like "no landing on a planet until I've done a full surface scan from orbit"

The closest thing we have is the Ore/ISRU system which does randomize ore values and requires scanning first. I wish more were like that.

3 hours ago, tater said:

Yeah, obviously I am not advocating for a mechJeb like covering of the entire screen, heck, KER takes more than I would like much of the time. Their use of the staging menu (already there along the side) seems entirely ideal, however.

You don't have to live with the default KER windows. It took me an hour to create a set of KER windows that works great for me and provides all the data I need in small packets around the edge of the screen. I'm happy to share it with you or others if you want.

There's a window for DV by stage, another for orbital data and a third for ground data. There are additional popups for maneuvers, landing and rendezvous that I pull up when I need them. It's clean and doesn't take up much space. Try that with the new Stock readouts?

In the VAB view the default KER table-based view is a LOT simpler and less clicky than the new Stock view. Maybe everyone doesn't like having their data in a table, but I think it's pretty easy and doesn't require me to keep clicking on the different stages to see the details. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Tyko

[linuxgurugamer]

There is also the method of using the Tasiar telescopes to have to find the planets before being able to go to them

[tater]

25 minutes ago, Tyko said:

The closest thing we have is the Ore/ISRU system which does randomize ore values and requires scanning first. I wish more were like that.

Except the ore/ISRU contracts are 100% stupid.

Put a station with ISRU in orbit around Duna (instead of ON Duna, where it might be, you know, useful).

Haul 3000 ore from Duna to Ike, waving to the ISRU station it had you build along the way. For reasons.

 

18 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

There is also the method of using the Tasiar telescopes to have to find the planets before being able to go to them

The planets (except maybe Eeloo as an analog of Pluto) would all be naked eye objects from Kerbin (not even counting the fact that even Eeloo is inside the orbit of Venus). Having to do "make work" to then observe them is pretty silly, IMO.

In RL, everything past the Moon was a variously fuzzy blob. Space telescopes (after we visited the planets for real in our history) would certainly resolve more of the surfaces, potentially. Regardless, mars was a blob until Mariner. Many of the Moons past Mars were discovered by the Voyager probes. It took radar mappers to really know much about the surface of Venus (geographically), and landers for more data about it period.

Any fog of war system would require a randomized solar system. This need not be crappy, "procedural" planets, they could be some number of moon models, and some number of planet models (specifically designed to be nice), that are then moved around into random solar systems (via a sharable "seed"), which can also rescale distances, and even world sizes (they might be designed to look good up to 4X rescale, for example, and some could be made from the start closer to 1:1 scale instead of 1:10). Atmospheres can also vary (super thin, to venus-like based on planet size, and randomness). As could inclination of the orbits.

So a seed might spawn 7 planets by default, and randomly assign moons to them (gas giants getting more). You know where they are, and can look at them in map/tracking station view, the the closest you can zoom in is really, really far. So they look like colored circles about like with a telescope from Earth. The map zoom level can be moved in to the closest distance you have taken pictures from (add a camera part for probes (or give probes "send pictures" as their version of "crew report"), assume all crew carry cameras).

This is easy to flesh out into a much more entertaining science/career mode where the goal is exploration, not mining points. The first time you see a world is the first time you send something there. Exciting!

[swjr-swis]

4 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

So this isn't exactly right. Its a question of screen real-estate. You really only want information on the screen that is immediately necessary for the task at hand.

It is, in fact, exactly right... for me. Which is my point.

I have heaps of screen real estate, and not nearly enough options to use it effectively for all the information I want on it pretty much at all times. I get much more annoyed by constantly having to work through multiple menus, screens and button clicks to enable things that default back to disabled every single game load... than by having one more set of numbers visible at moments that I don't really need it yet.

That doesn't sound right for you? That's fine too, and I'm all for you also getting the option to limit your information as much as you feel is 'enough'. Just don't decide for me what is 'too much' for me. Let us have the option to choose ourselves how much is 'enough'. In my case, the answer is in all probability always going to be - enable it all, all the time, thank you very much.

[linuxgurugamer]

44 minutes ago, tater said:

The planets (except maybe Eeloo as an analog of Pluto) would all be naked eye objects from Kerbin (not even counting the fact that even Eeloo is inside the orbit of Venus). Having to do "make work" to then observe them is pretty silly, IMO.

 

I can think of many reasons why the planets would NOT be visible as naked eye objects.  If nothing else, having to look at and image a planet before being able to go there is a legitimate requirements.

Then, have you ever heard of space dust?  It's known, and doesn't need to be thick to block vision

[Tyko]

48 minutes ago, tater said:

1 hour ago, Tyko said:

The closest thing we have is the Ore/ISRU system which does randomize ore values and requires scanning first. I wish more were like that.

Except the ore/ISRU contracts are 100% stupid.

Put a station with ISRU in orbit around Duna (instead of ON Duna, where it might be, you know, useful).

Haul 3000 ore from Duna to Ike, waving to the ISRU station it had you build along the way. For reasons.

I never mentioned "contracts". I was referring to the way the game handles ore - it randomizes the concentrations when you start a new playthrough and you have to scan to find it before you can extract and use it.   

[IncongruousGoat]

On 12/8/2018 at 8:17 AM, klesh said:

Interesting to see if the deltav thing will work under all circumstances.  For instance, the engine plates from MH still reverse the fuel flow as displayed by the game, and also confuse the Engineers report into thinking they are a decoupler placed upside down.  With issues like that lingering, lets just say my confidence will stay reserved for now.  

You and me both. I'm actually more worried about orbital assembly, and drop tanks/drop boosters attached via docking ports. They're not stages in the staging sequence, since they're separated by manually undocking things, which it seems will break the dV report. I've also had issues in the past (using KER) with staged landers attached via docking ports - the readout gets convinced the lander is another stage of the main vehicle.

[Tyko]

1 minute ago, IncongruousGoat said:

You and me both. I'm actually more worried about orbital assembly, and drop tanks/drop boosters attached via docking ports. They're not stages in the staging sequence, since they're separated by manually undocking things, which it seems will break the dV report. I've also had issues in the past (using KER) with staged landers attached via docking ports - the readout gets convinced the lander is another stage of the main vehicle.

Yea, I don't think the DV by Stage model can work when tracking DV for a station and attached smaller craft. You'd really need a different way to track DV by each individual craft. Now that KSP can keep track of vessel names when docking and undocking there may be a way to do it, but AFAIK there isn't today in any of the DV mods.

[tater]

7 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I can think of many reasons why the planets would NOT be visible as naked eye objects.  If nothing else, having to look at and image a planet before being able to go there is a legitimate requirements.

Then, have you ever heard of space dust?  It's known, and doesn't need to be thick to block vision

It's a dumb mechanic. The sky on Kerbin is apparently cloudless, and space is so clear, and Kerbol so dim that you can see stars in broad daylight in space.

You'd have to take a drink of water or eat, too, but the game abstract that away. Or weld parts. So I have to build a telescope, hit launch, then click "observe space" before I'm allowed to have a maneuver node that has an interaction with Duna?

No thanks, let's stipulate someone else did that many decades before they develop rocket engines (or ladders, apparently*).

Having to launch it first? Um, no. When they make the Kerbin atmosphere 100% overcast, then I'm fine with that solution, until then, no.

 

*another peeve, if we assume ladders are so very difficult, the initial tech tree nodes could at least have stairs, since KSC is covered with them.

[Psycho_zs]

Discovering planets is a dumb idea. But imaging as a science mechanics  would be pretty neat. Have a couple of camera parts. One available early in the career. Imagine the contracts: Go snap Kerbin from space (it's like space exploration 101),  snap the far side of the Mun, snap particular place on the surface from certain distance.

Make planet maps initially blurry, update gradually after sending pics back to Kerbin.

[Pthigrivi]

@swjr-swis Thats interesting, and goes to maybe a deeper question about menus saving their states when you switch from screen to screen. I think the default in a new save would have to be with them all closed, however, since a lot of people are playing on laptops and would barely be able to see the rocket with everything open. It would save you the job of re-opening them each time you loaded a vessel though. 
 

45 minutes ago, Tyko said:

I never mentioned "contracts". I was referring to the way the game handles ore - it randomizes the concentrations when you start a new playthrough and you have to scan to find it before you can extract and use it.   

I've also thought this. One thing they could do is to use slightly varied and randomized values for science from biome to biome encouraging players to map from orbit before picking a landing site. For instance the the Northwest crater would be worth 10% more, munar poles 20% more etc. And if Im being really greedy it might also be cool to place surface features and a special class of randomized ground scatter that carried science bonuses in a few randomized biomes.

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[Tyko]

26 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I've also thought this. One thing they could do is to use slightly varied and randomized values for science from biome to biome encouraging players to map from orbit before picking a landing site. For instance the the Northwest crater would be worth 10% more, munar poles 20% more etc. And if Im being really greedy it might also be cool to place surface features and a special class of randomized ground scatter that carried science bonuses in a few randomized biomes.
 

I still think the best path forward would be reducing the science value of the biomes and adding points of interest - a particular crater, a lava tube, a dried lake bed, a dead volcano...the options go on and on. Basically how anomalies work today - you'd scan to find them and then have to send down landers to explore / collect science. 

Using a system  like this you could randomize them on a per game basis - both the type, the location and the science value. 

 

[tater]

I'd rather see at least some "science" actually provide useful additions to gameplay instead of click, click, EVA, "take data," etc.

Want to pick a landing site? Map the possible landing areas. Early tech might have very low res beamed back (planet mapping is abstracted to the closest you can zoom in to view it), higher res if film (brought back to Kerbin), so you need to get close, but then few areas mapped. You might have the need to use earlier probes that are like Ranger. The idea of scatter for science is a good one, but also the scatter needs colliders, and surfaces need perhaps to have some different textures, where rough textures mean acceptable landing speeds are far lower, or indeed even impossible (at least for certain landing gear). The texture would take the place of dangerous sized scatter that would tax computers too much to render so much of). SAS gets banged way down, too (sorry, tilted KSP landers that should have fallen over). Anyway, this scanning tech lets you pic landing sites, because as you build a map, you get to zoom even farther in that we can now in map mode. Known areas you've landed? Zoom in as if it was EVA.

Such mapping can also identify points of interest (special scatter to investigate, etc).

Atmospheric data can unlock trajectory planning in that atmosphere (super useful for landing in a known spot on such a world).

 

[Duck McFuddle]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When will it be added to the game? (By that I mean when will 1.6 most likely be released?)

[RealKerbal3x]

2 minutes ago, Duck McFuddle said:

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When will it be added to the game? (By that I mean when will 1.6 most likely be released?)

If I understand SQUAD’s new update schedule, it should be coming in mid-January.

[Duck McFuddle]

17 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

If I understand SQUAD’s new update schedule, it should be coming in mid-January.

Yay!

[Red Iron Crown]

6 hours ago, tater said:

Transfer windows can also have a Werner (is there a character in another building that might be used?) animation where they point at a chalkboard (with updates maybe a it changes to a whiteboard) with a doodle of the relative position of the planets and a trajectory for a ship (with a date range), and gives a thumbs up. Alternately, the entirely lousy contract system could internalize such transfer windows, and suggest missions to works with actual launch dates added. That takes zero animation work.

The best implementation of a visualization for transfer windows I've seen is in the Android game Spaceflight Simulator. Select a target body and it highlights a segment of that body's orbit, a segment that moves along that orbit as the origin body moves. Warp until the target is in the segment and you're good to go. A similar thing is done on the spacecraft's orbit to indicate the proper ejection angle. 

My description here is not that great, but it's such a good implementation that after seeing it I immediately thought "KSP needs this". Simple and intuitive, with zero information overload. Worth a look if you get a chance. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Red Iron Crown

[swjr-swis]

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

a lot of people are playing on laptops

<whisper> I know. I'm one of them. </whisper> 

[HvP]

2 hours ago, tater said:

I'd rather see at least some "science" actually provide useful additions to gameplay instead of click, click, EVA, "take data," etc.

Agreed. The gameplay mechanics of collecting science in the game seems like it could be greatly improved.

Personally, I'm in favor a system by which scanning worlds with different instruments fills in a science based heat-map of the planet, similar to how the ore scanner reveals ore, but gradually as you physically traverse the planet. At the very least it could provide a helpful catalogue of where you still need to explore and provides a visible goal to encourage people to fully explore each planet. (In the game Civilization, I was the one who raced to get the technology to build caravels so that I could map out the oceans and continents as early as possible.)

I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to devise how that data could be leveraged into the upgrade system.

Edited December 10, 2018 by HvP