SpinkAkron

[WIP] UnKerballed Start

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Here's the first cut of the size0/.625m parts start.  I created a new LV-T10 engine resized from the LV-T30, serving that role at size0.  I resized the LV-T15 from Missing History to fill the role of size0 gimbled engine.  We don't need it in the size1/1.25m line anyway.  I like @Pand5461's idea of 1.25m SRBs being available much earlier than 1.25m LFEs.  I'm not sure about having the Flea at start due to the availability of the size0 srbs from Vens, but I'm open to being persuaded.

Tier 1(start) - LV-T10 LFE, RT-1 SRB

Tier 2 - RT-2 SRB, RT-5 SRB,  Mk1 -> 0 Adapter  

Tier 3 - LV-T15 LFE, RT-10 SRB, radial decoupler

Tier 4 - LV-T30, LV-T45 

I'd like to keep the OKTO in tier 4 and the small reaction wheel in tier 3.  It make sense that reaction wheels are developed first and then combined with the probe core.  That gives a 2 parts -> 1 part efficiency gain at tier 4.  Steering/control is a deliberate pain point prior to tier 3

I've untangled the rocketry line a bit.  The Propulsion Systems line can now be extended back giving a tier 4 node separate from Advanced Rocketry so we can divide up the boosters from the upper stage/specialized engines or however makes sense.  It can now be extended past tier 6. Space is available for a third engine line to be developed if needed.

Having Nuclear Propulsion developing from rocket engines and fuel tanks doesn't make much sense.  I've disconnected it for now pending relocation. That big clot of nuclear power nodes in the upper right needs be relocated to the bottom, I'm thinking.

I don't know why they squished everything together leaving about a third of the space unused.  I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and rectify that cuz OCD.

@theonegalen- FYI, I'm changing the pos of every node. If that's relevant to your work, you might want to hold off a bit.

download updated

tech tree spreadsheet is hopelessly out of date.

Edited by SpinkAkron

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I unsquished the tech tree, taking advantage of the unused space.  This enabled me to better integrate a few orphan tech lines.  The colonization line dangling off the bottom was moved up to the survivability line and will be where the life support and habs can go.  The heat management line was moved up above the solar panels, integrating between high power electric and nuclear power, which fits nicely above that.  I haven't decided what to do with Nuclear Propulsion so I stuck it on the top for now.

Download updated.

 

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1 hour ago, SpinkAkron said:

I unsquished the tech tree, taking advantage of the unused space.  This enabled me to better integrate a few orphan tech lines.  The colonization line dangling off the bottom was moved up to the survivability line and will be where the life support and habs can go.  The heat management line was moved up above the solar panels, integrating between high power electric and nuclear power, which fits nicely above that.  I haven't decided what to do with Nuclear Propulsion so I stuck it on the top for now.

Download updated.

 

awesome

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12 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

I'm not sure about having the Flea at start due to the availability of the size0 srbs from Vens, but I'm open to being persuaded.

I do agree that the Ven's SRB are more fitting. The VSR licensing seems to allow bundling parts with other mods (although it's best to ask the permission before the offcial release). My only concern is what happens if they are used alongside the VSR itself, will there be duplicated parts?

With the engines, I am uncomfortable about the idea of using the same model for two parts. It's better to use LV-T15 model, set the gimbal limit to 0 and then give it the full range through an upgrade.

As for the reaction wheels in a probe core: there is, as of current, a cockpit with a built-in 10 torque reaction wheel in T2. That doesn't make 0.3 torque in a probe core at T3 unreasonable. Even worse, that may make first flight with a crewed cockpit easier than with a probe core, which defeats the main purpose of the reshake. And trying to play shows that those insanely powerful reaction wheels in fact save more parts (the rocket needs less aero surfaces for stability and control in low atmo) than having a probe with tiny reaction wheels and SAS.

Apart from that, I would revamp the LV-T15 even more radically, with power reduced to 5..10 kN and mass to 0.06 t.

Rationale: with the mass of half a ton and thrust about 20 kN, LV-T15 is just a much worser Spark and has zero use after unlocking T4.

Tier 1 - LVT10 -> LV-T15 with 0° gimbal range.

Tier 2 - Mk0 or radial decoupler. Rationale: to make the completion of the "Escape the atmosphere" contract possible at this tier. Otherwise, T3 provides you with enough tech to skip that as a step of its own and get straight to orbit.

Tier 3 - give LV-T15 actual gimbal range.

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I changed my other mind back to plan A and used rescaled stock engines rather than using the one from Missing History.  I want to avoid having required mods if it can be avoided.  I got rid of the Ven's parts for the same reason. Instead I made a set of .625m tanks from rescaled stock. I don't see any reason to avoid using rescaled parts. I certainly do not have the inclination to spend a couple weeks making them from scratch.  They're fine for now, in any case. I'll look at using upgrades at some point but for now I'm more concerned with getting the tech tree and stock part placement complete. 

I expanded the precision engine line back and forward to split out specialized engines.  Nodes are still un-named and it's all an experiment at this stage.  Missing History got some more attention.   Antennas are still scattered all over the place. I'll do them next.

Download updated.

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@Pand5461, after pondering it awhile, I agree you are correct re the OKTO and reaction wheel.  I've moved the OKTO down to stability and the the Small Reaction Wheel up to Flight Control. 

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@SpinkAkron  make sure when you set up these new parts, that you make them compatible with Ven's stock revamp and other part mods like Tareobee and USI Sounding Rockets that add small probe parts to the start node.

A simple :NEEDS[!VenStockRevamp,!Taerobee,!USISoundingRockets] tag should be great. I haven't been able to look at the newest config files, so maybe you've done this already. Also make sure that the Missing History extra engines will fit in using similar tags.

Wherever you can, I think it's important to make sure that you don't change the properties of any existing parts. This way, people who use your mod are able to share and download craft files with and from people who don't. So I think it was a very good idea to use the rescaled stock parts instead of modifying the VSR or missing history parts.

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On 1/13/2019 at 7:34 PM, SpinkAkron said:

I changed my other mind back to plan A and used rescaled stock engines rather than using the one from Missing History.  I want to avoid having required mods if it can be avoided.  I got rid of the Ven's parts for the same reason. Instead I made a set of .625m tanks from rescaled stock. I don't see any reason to avoid using rescaled parts. I certainly do not have the inclination to spend a couple weeks making them from scratch.  They're fine for now, in any case. I'll look at using upgrades at some point but for now I'm more concerned with getting the tech tree and stock part placement complete. 

I expanded the precision engine line back and forward to split out specialized engines.  Nodes are still un-named and it's all an experiment at this stage.  Missing History got some more attention.   Antennas are still scattered all over the place. I'll do them next.

Download updated.

Like the direction that this is going . And I agree that not requiring mods would be the Ideal way to balance the tree. Just my two cents and to lobby for the mod I would like to see balanced in this tree the most. You might take the time to look at this  https://spacedock.info/mod/1880/RLA Reborn  

I have used this mod with my game for as long as I can remember. If someone told me I could only use one part mod I am pretty sure that I would pick this one. Although When restock+ comes out I might have to change my mind.  I'M going to try this out this weekend. I'll let you know what I think of the starting balance.

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@Delbrutis, RLA has some nice stuff. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I've added an RLA config with the beginnings of sorting things out.  The tanks were easy.  The whole engine tree above tier 5 or so is pretty much TBD, so I didn't even try to place the RLA engines other than some of the SRBs.  I'm going with @Pand5461's suggestion that engines be the limiting factor but haven't really done much beyond moving the LV-T30 and LV-T45 to tier 4.  I've been focusing on making the .625m starting parts.  Looking at RLA was a big help getting my parts to at least be in the parking lot of the ballpark for reasonable stats. I had things way off.   If you have any suggestions for engine placement or anything else, please feel free to chip in.

Download updated.

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I've pretty much finished untangling and rationalizing the tech tree.  I relocated the unmanned line up to extend the flight control line so there is a coherent probe upgrade path to match the manned capsules.   There is no need for two science lines so I combined them into one.  There wasn't an evident difference between the two and there aren't very many science parts anyway.  The tech tree structure is complete pending any changes required by @theonegalen's aviation setup.  I removed several nodes and made MM patches to reassign any modded parts that use  them to other nodes.  The nodes are available to be re-added should the need arise. 

Nodes Removed are: Landing, Advanced Landing, Heavy Landing, Advanced Motors, Experimental Motors , Automation, Efficient Flight Systems, Specialized Flight Systems, Aerospace Composites, Adv Aerospace Engineering, Storage Tech, Specialized Science Tech, Long Term Science Tech, Scientific Outposts, High Energy Science.

Nodes added are:  Fabrication, Aeronautics, Basic Construction, Early Aviation, gadgets, Specialized Rocketry, Custom Fuel Tanks, Gizmos, Early Heat Management, Adv Propulsion Systems, adv Precision Propulsion.

Per @Pand5461's suggestion, I moved a radial decoupler to tier 2 and advanced the decoupler progression accordingly.  Also per his suggestion, I upped the cost of Heavy Rocketry to 105, making the R&D upgrade required to unlock this.  I did the same with Propulsion Systems to have the same requirement in the specialized engines line.  To balance that, I moved RCS, docking ports and the station hub lower down to encourage the player to make stations around Kerbin/Mun/Minmus prior to striking out for Duna.

Download updated.

screenshot in first post has been updated, showing the full tech tree.

Edited by SpinkAkron

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Since I pulled Nuclear Propulsion out of the direct rocketry line, it left a gap at tier 7.  I moved nodes 8+ down one to fill the gap.  I swapped out Experimental Actuators in favor of the previously removed Automation since it's a stock node and fits well in the actuator/robotics line. Nuclear Propulsion now requires Heavier Rocketry and Nuclear Power.

To be consistent with the early engine line, I moved the tier 5+ engines up one tier. I moved the LV-T45 and LV-T30 to tier 5 and reduced Heavy Rocketry back to 90 points. I'm moving engines plates down making them more useful, given the early scarcity of powerful engines.

I added configs for TAC, USI , and Kerbalism life support mods.   Configs for Missing History, Remote Tech, kOS, Vens, and RLA are nearly complete.

Download updated.

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After compressing things slightly, I had room to restore all of the previously removed nodes that were not redundant.   Makes mod compatibility much simpler.

Removed nodes are those that overlap with another node in the same tier. Storage Tech merged with Recycling. Field Science merged with Scanning Tech. Automation merged with Advanced Unmanned. Specialized Science Tech merged with Advanced Science Tech.   I included a patch to reassign move any modded parts so they don't end up in the Twilight Zone.

 Configs done for:  DMagic Orbital Science, Kerbalism, kOS, Making History, Missing History, Near Future Mods, Remote Tech, RLA Reborn, SCANsat, Snacks, Station Parts Expansion Redux, TAC Life Support, Universal Storage 2, USI Life Support, Ven's Stock Revamp.

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I moved the Nuclear Propulsion line down between the Nuclear Power and Ion Propulsion lines,  which seems the natural spot.  I finalized my methodology on fuel tank placement and decided to use that to also determine where adapters, decouplers and engine plates should go.  Size0 at start, Size1 at tier 2, Size1p5 at tier 3, Size2 at tier 5, Size3 at tier 6, Size4 at tier 7.  These are where the first fuel tank of that diameter becomes available.  I'm think I might be giving the player too many goodies too soon.  I'll have to playtest more.  Added nodes for structural parts at each size break.   

I need to finally tackle engines.  I've added a second engine line expanding on the Precision Propulsion line, breaking Rocketry up into a boosters line and a specialized engine line. I'm not sure yet that this is the way to go.

Fuel Tanks Plus config added. 

Download updated.

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I got the engines laid out. They are now divided into two lines, a power/boosters line and a specialized branch.  I added a new rocketry node at tier 7, filling the spot vacated by Nuclear Propulsion, and filled out the propulsion line with new nodes out to tier 11.

I moved the Soviet-style reentry pods into their own line, reducing them to half science cost. They can all be unlocked without upgrading the R&D.  I think it gives them a niche they did not previously have. They are a useful alternative now especially when playing on low money settings.  It also serves to keep them out of the inventory when you don't want to use them.  The Tech Tree is pretty much final at this point. 

@theonegalen, I'd like to release a 0.8 or so version at the end of the week.  Do you want to do anything with aviation/mods before that? All I have done up to this point is arrange the stock parts similar to UBM.

Added configs for KW Rocketry, Interstellar Extended, SETI Probe Parts, and Taerobee. 

Download updated.

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1 hour ago, SpinkAkron said:

@theonegalen, I'd like to release a 0.8 or so version at the end of the week.  Do you want to do anything with aviation/mods before that? All I have done up to this point is arrange the stock parts similar to UBM.

I will see what I can do. I've been waiting on UKS development to settle down a bit before going hog wild on the plane parts. I just haven't wanted to have to reevaluate everything when the next version of the mod came out. I do hope to get some basic configs set up this week.

I'll start with the simple ones that will mostly go in early tiers: KAX, OpenCockpit, Kerbonov, and Taerobee.

Edited by theonegalen

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18 hours ago, theonegalen said:

I will see what I can do. I've been waiting on UKS development to settle down a bit before going hog wild on the plane parts. I just haven't wanted to have to reevaluate everything when the next version of the mod came out. I do hope to get some basic configs set up this week.

I'll start with the simple ones that will mostly go in early tiers: KAX, OpenCockpit, Kerbonov, and Taerobee.

Cool. Thanks!

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@SpinkAkron

The first thing I did was move most of the wings to separate wings nodes, similar to how you have structures nodes in the early tree. Past tier 5, additional wing parts go into the aerodynamics branch.

I'm doing the Aero branches with a lot of conditional statements, so the parts' placement in the tech tree will dynamically change depending on what mods are installed. Through this, I hope to maintain a balanced and enjoyable playthrough for everyone, no matter how much attention and time they wish to put into the airplane side of the game, as indicated by which mods they use.

Playing through the game, I feel like tech costs should be much higher in general. Why did you lower tech costs compared to the stock game?

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1 minute ago, theonegalen said:

@SpinkAkron

Playing through the game, I feel like tech costs should be much higher in general. Why did you lower tech costs compared to the stock game?

Way back when I first added more nodes,  I lowered the cost per node to have the same cost per tier as stock.  I agree they are too low and need to go back up.

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3 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

Way back when I first added more nodes,  I lowered the cost per node to have the same cost per tier as stock.  I agree they are too low and need to go back up.

Yeah, my play style is pretty grindy in the early game, especially with regards to science. It forces me to reuse the same designs and parts for multiple missions, and I like that. I know other people like to Blitz to the end of the tech tree as quickly as possible though, and that's fine for them.

Edit: made a lot of progress tonight. Preliminary configs for the mods I listed above are in the game, and appear to be working.

Edited by theonegalen

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I upped the costs to the same as stock but then couldn't get enough science on hard mode to unlock any tier 2 nodes.  I had to rearrange the science parts a bit.  I need to make sure there's enough science using stock parts to make it through all levels on hard mode.  I normally play with DMagic and SCANsat.  I suspect most people playing a modded setup use some science mods, but you should be able to progress without them. 

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On 1/28/2019 at 9:02 PM, theonegalen said:

Edit: made a lot of progress tonight. Preliminary configs for the mods I listed above are in the game, and appear to be working.

@theonegalenAbout ready to have these combined?   I'm going to release a 0.8 version this weekend so I can get some feedback for balancing and to see if the choices I made get totally rejected :wacko:

Edited by SpinkAkron

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6 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

@theonegalenAbout ready to have these combined?   I'm going to release a 0.8 version this weekend so I can get some feedback for balancing and to see if the choices I made get totally rejected :wacko:

Due to work and other obligations, I haven't been able to work on the patches since I made my last post. Also, I haven't touched much of the stock aero parts, except to add the Wings nodes and move the parts around depending on which mods are installed.

I won't be able to work on them until Monday or Tuesday. I'm away from my computer until tomorrow night CST, and I have a month and a half's worth of lesson plans to write before Monday morning.

 

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1 minute ago, theonegalen said:

Due to work and other obligations, I haven't been able to work on the patches since I made my last post. Also, I haven't touched much of the stock aero parts, except to add the Wings nodes and move the parts around depending on which mods are installed.

I won't be able to work on them until Monday or Tuesday. I'm away from my computer until tomorrow night CST, and I have a month and a half's worth of lesson plans to write before Monday morning.

 

No Problem.  We'll incorporate them when you have time.  I'm going to go ahead and go with what I've got.  I'm sure the feedback will keep me busy.  I really appreciate you taking on the aviation stuff.

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Hi @SpinkAkron, I am liking your tech tree so far.  I am using Science Revisited Revisited (Telemetry Report) and Celestial Body Science Editor to try and minimize the science grind around the space center.  So far I'm pretty happy with the results but am still early in the career.  One question, what was your thinking on the placement of the .75m TAC life support waste canister?  It is located on the Life Support node and therefore I'm stuck and unable to complete the 72 hour (14 day)  SETI orbit contract until I unlock this 90pt node.  The TAC Supplies .75 canister is Enhanced Survivabilty.  This is KSP 1.6.1 and 1.0.4 of UKS.  Thanks for your work!

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