Concept for a Jupiter-Saturn-Haumea flyby probe

[Interplanet Janet]

I have been studying concepts for missions, and I think I might have one. It is basically an expansion upon the idea of a Saturn atmospheric probe whose relay will escape the Solar System. As of yet, it is nameless, but I have some ideas for what it will be.

The carrier-relay probe will have a wide-angle camera with color capabilities, and a narrow-angle camera with only B&W. This is similar to the Ralph-Lorri dichotomy on New Horizons. It may also have some other instruments from the Voyager probes, such as a magnetometer, radio receiver, UV spectrometer, etc. Finally, it will carry an atmospheric probe to descend into Saturn's atmosphere. It will be released not long before the Saturn flyby, and after the relay passes from the shadow, it will relay the data collected from the atmospheric probe, as well as data it may have collected as well.

The carrier-relay would look like a mesh between Voyager, New Horizons, and Galileo (with the atmospheric probe), possibly.

It would be launched in mid-2034, have a 1.7-year-long cruise phase to Jupiter, then take about 4 years to get to Saturn. After that, a Haumea flyby may be possible, given enough funding directed toward it.

A couple of questions, however:

1. Since it's on an escape trajectory from the Solar System, what cargo will it carry for aliens to find?
2. Would it be feasible to have a camera embedded into the probe to take a picture of the Saturnian atmosphere?
3. To get to Haumea, how close would the carrier-relay have to fly to Saturn?
4. Would it be possible to make a mockup of it using RSS? (preferably both imgur photographs AND a youtube video)

These are two possible trajectories I might use. They aren't necessary, but is instead a template or guideline.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=14YrJYsIIzYcgSTCZa_DjR8acOjPp26Ks

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GF_xSTJa7mQ37aFmDcRsh06SYOPoPD0e

Share your thoughts below.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Interplanet Janet
Revisions

[p1t1o]

26 minutes ago, Interplanet Janet said:

1. Since it's on an escape trajectory from the Solar System, what cargo will it carry for aliens to find?

A mass of energetic but stable organic compounds to show that we understand chemistry.

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

A mass of lithiuim deuteride for ummmm....ummm....ballast?

All wrapped up in a pure gold, precisely machined container to show that we understand fine machining/metallurgical principles and precise engineering.

[Interplanet Janet]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

A mass of energetic but stable organic compounds to show that we understand chemistry.

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

A mass of lithiuim deuteride for ummmm....ummm....ballast?

All wrapped up in a pure gold, precisely machined container to show that we understand fine machining/metallurgical principles and precise engineering.

Heh... good idea.  

Certainly helps.

 

EDIT: A NUKE WOULD NOT HELP A MISSION AT ALL.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Interplanet Janet
late to the punchline. :(

[Racescort666]

18 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

A mass of energetic but stable organic compounds to show that we understand chemistry.

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

A mass of lithiuim deuteride for ummmm....ummm....ballast?

All wrapped up in a pure gold, precisely machined container to show that we understand fine machining/metallurgical principles and precise engineering.

This sounds awfully heavy, unless you're building a... oh...

[Interplanet Janet]

1 minute ago, Racescort666 said:

This sounds awfully heavy, unless you're building a... oh...

...how did I not get that...

(well, it could be used to power the craft, but still...)

[YNM]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

Given it has RTG anyway why bother with another one.

________

 

I'm still not too convinced with the trajectory so far. Would need one of their extra good simulations.

What will we carry ? Depends on the size, I think a rad-hardened phone with instructions to assemble the battery and the... screen ? Not sure would it last a million years or not.

Idk, mine can't run RO/RSS. You could probably see in KSPTOT for the trajectory.

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by YNM

[Interplanet Janet]

45 minutes ago, YNM said:

Given it has RTG anyway why bother with another one.

________

 

I'm still not too convinced with the trajectory so far. Would need one of their extra good simulations.

What will we carry ? Depends on the size, I think a rad-hardened phone with instructions to assemble the battery and the... screen ? Not sure would it last a million years or not.

Idk, mine can't run RO/RSS. You could probably see in KSPTOT for the trajectory.

 

Maybe a super-microscopic etching of certain human images? Or maybe it could come with a large USB drive, with a plug embedded within it?

Who knows what to bring along?

(maybe if Mike Brown dies before the launch, his ashes could be transported? just saying)

Edited January 10, 2019 by Interplanet Janet

[Piscator]

Messages to aliens seem to me like the least important bit of such a mission, given the likelihood of it ever been found. If you want to play this game though, I would suggest to add something that aids the detection of your message in a bottle. After all, there are probably dozens of probe-sized interstellar objects crossing a solar system at any given time, so something that screams "artificially made object" when glanced casually by remote sensing instruments would be quite helpful. I'm thinking of a peculiar spectroscopic signature, unusual light curve or something of that kind.

Since the Haumea fly-by seems like the most interesting part of the mission (at least to me), I wonder how sensible it would be to add another probelet, that would detach some time prior to the fly-by and pass Haumea half a rotation later in order to a get good view of the other side of the object. Given Haumea's rapid rotation, this might not be as useful as it would have been at Pluto though.

 

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

what cargo will it carry for aliens to find?

A two-stage thermonuke of Ulam-Teller scheme.
It will tell about us, our tech level, cultural specificities, readiness for a hostile contact, etc much better and briefer than photosets of flowers and spiritual melodies on bag-pipes.

Radioactive materials will tell much better about the launch time (thanks for their halflives, varying from 24 ky to 4.5 Gy) whenever they find it: a thousand years later or a billion years.

The metallic alloys and details made of them will clearly describe our chemical and industrial background.
As well the electronic part will do.

We should not be afraid that they will get this as an aggression and stop talking to us. If they can catch this, it's nothing more than a friendly joke for them.

3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

A mass of lithiuim deuteride for ummmm....ummm....ballast?

Oops. I should read others' posts before write.

Spoiler

_{I should read others' posts before write.
I should read others' posts before write.
I should read others' posts before write.
I should read others' posts before write.
(995 times more)}

2 hours ago, YNM said:

Given it has RTG anyway why bother with another one.

A million years later there wil be just traces.

2 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

Maybe a super-microscopic etching of certain human images?

A bobble head with the frequency of nodding proportional  to the free hydrogen spectral line, Earth orbital period, and some pulsar, in a Fibonacci proportion.
If they can read Voyager and SETI puzzles, this won't be a problem for them.

2 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

his ashes could be transported?

They can think we sacrifice people. *)

*) We do, but not in this case.

39 minutes ago, Piscator said:

something that screams "artificially made object" when glanced casually by remote sensing instruments would be quite helpful.

Tons of them like schrapnel.

Spoiler

And them.

Spoiler

Also they can be those bobbleheads.

Edited January 10, 2019 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

2 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

Maybe a super-microscopic etching of certain human images? Or maybe it could come with a large USB drive, with a plug embedded within it?

Well, a working machine would work better, but not sure what of our working machine would ever last a million years.

Like, see on our own pop culture films : if it's just past images of stuff, we have no problem nor interests. But if that past moves among us ? That's better.

Maybe something spring-loaded. Or powered by a gravity-generated electricity. But what display would work that long...

[Xd the great]

I have a better idea: Flat Earthers.

[p1t1o]

14 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Oops. I should read others' posts before write.

lol GMTA

6 hours ago, Xd the great said:

I have a better idea: Flat Earthers.

Imagine the look on their faces...

[magnemoe]

14 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

A two-stage thermonuke of Ulam-Teller scheme.
It will tell about us, our tech level, cultural specificities, readiness for a hostile contact, etc much better and briefer than photosets of flowers and spiritual melodies on bag-pipes.

Radioactive materials will tell much better about the launch time (thanks for their halflives, varying from 24 ky to 4.5 Gy) whenever they find it: a thousand years later or a billion years.

The metallic alloys and details made of them will clearly describe our chemical and industrial background.
As well the electronic part will do.

We should not be afraid that they will get this as an aggression and stop talking to us. If they can catch this, it's nothing more than a friendly joke for them.

LOL, they probably assume its either for redirect asteroids or an weapon for use in the solar system. 
Some of the sensors probably make little sense for asteroids on the other hand they might puzzle on it as an weapon if they has used nuclear weapons. 

 Now its an danger that the explosives will become very fragile over time. 

[kerbiloid]

7 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Now its an danger that the explosives will become very fragile over time. 

But we are not going to burst them! (... Aren't we?)

Just this is a concentrated set of the civilization achievements to show them what we can.

Edited January 11, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Interplanet Janet]

This has evolved into less a discussion about exploring space and more into what can be flung into it. It's still interesting, but...

Any concepts for names, maybe, for the probe? Or the atmospheric probe? Modifications we could make to the trajectory to make it less fuel- or time-consuming?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I'm opening discussion about what mementos to send to aliens, but what about the primary mission?

[p1t1o]

47 minutes ago, Interplanet Janet said:

This has evolved into less a discussion about exploring space and more into what can be flung into it. It's still interesting, but...

Any concepts for names, maybe, for the probe? Or the atmospheric probe? Modifications we could make to the trajectory to make it less fuel- or time-consuming?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I'm opening discussion about what mementos to send to aliens, but what about the primary mission?

I love the idea of visual image cameras on the atmospheric probe. For some reason, we have sent multiple probes to gas giants but we have precisely zero imagery from within the atmosphere, even though it ought to be some of the most spectacular views in the system! Bonus points for colour video. I mean, its not like high definition video cameras cant be made extremely tiny for a a handful of grams of mass, I dont see why it could not be done.

As for names, its tough. Jupiter and Saturn are Latin whilst Haumea is a Hawaiian fertility goddess. I tried to think of something that could link them...

For the [real] cargo intended for aliens, I am leaning towards a full download of the internet on some robust media. Its full of questionable content, but you couldnt get a more honest or complete picture of humanity. We'd just have to trust that any aliens capable of responding would understand what it was and what it represented. If Im an alien and I receive a bunch of info from another alien that says nothing bad about them, Im suspicious already. In fact thats a philosophy I follow in life. Met with a broker yesterday (buying 1st house! yay!) and he told us what he was worst at and my respect, and willingness to work with them on our business, went up significantly. Ok so theres worse stuff on the internet but heyho.

Perhaps we might leave out the "dark web".

Trajectory - various long range probes have made multiple slingshots around Earth before heading out, it may be possible to extend dV or reduce fuel proportion by taking advantage of this. And the voyager probes (IIRC) utilised a rare alignment of the planets to visit multiple places and gain slingshots around each, it would take careful study and prediction of planetary positions and probably a lot of computation, to find another highly optimised trajectory like that.

 

Do you know roughly how long the trip to Haumea could take?

Edited January 11, 2019 by p1t1o

[kerbiloid]

As Saturn is kinda Chronus, the Saturnian descent probe can be Omphalos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology

Quote

Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete, and handed Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, also known as the Omphalos Stone, which he promptly swallowed, thinking that it was his son.

 

Spoiler

(Btw if you are going to design a trip to Ouranos, a Sickle looks a good name from the same legend).

While the fly-by probe happily escaping Saturn's gravity may be Zeus.
Also it came from Jupiter (kinda Zeus, too), so it's really-really Zeus.

A launcher/tug/whatever delivering it, is Rhea (delivered both Zeus and the stone).

Haumea is (as I can get from wiki) a Hawaian matronal goddess, so in this logical chain it can be associated with any of Zeus's passions or wife Hera.
But as it doesn't have a probe for Haumea, then no matter.

[Interplanet Janet]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

As Saturn is kinda Chronus, the Saturnian descent probe can be Omphalos.

While the fly-by probe happily escaping Saturn's gravity may be Zeus.
Also it came from Jupiter (kinda Zeus, too), so it's really-really Zeus.

A launcher/tug/whatever delivering it, is Rhea (delivered both Zeus and the stone).

Haumea is (as I can get from wiki) a Hawaian matronal goddess, so in this logical chain it can be associated with any of Zeus's passions or wife Hera.
But as it doesn't have a probe for Haumea, then no matter.

4

Zeus-Omphalos sounds good. It's a shame, though, that 'Oumuamua is taken...

3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

I love the idea of visual image cameras on the atmospheric probe. For some reason, we have sent multiple probes to gas giants but we have precisely zero imagery from within the atmosphere, even though it ought to be some of the most spectacular views in the system! Bonus points for colour video. I mean, its not like high definition video cameras cant be made extremely tiny for a a handful of grams of mass, I dont see why it could not be done.

6

That was kind of the point.

3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Trajectory - various long range probes have made multiple slingshots around Earth before heading out, it may be possible to extend dV or reduce fuel proportion by taking advantage of this. And the voyager probes (IIRC) utilised a rare alignment of the planets to visit multiple places and gain slingshots around each, it would take careful study and prediction of planetary positions and probably a lot of computation, to find another highly optimised trajectory like that.

Do you know roughly how long the trip to Haumea could take?

3

The trajectory supplied on the Google Drive photo (made by me) suggests it can take anywhere between 16-22 years, depending on launch date and chosen trajectory. I made an estimate of the trajectory based on SpaceEngine photographs, though, so forgive me if not everything is completely correct.  Also, given that it is a flyby probe, it doesn't really need much of a huge rocket. I was thinking, lowest-case scenario, Ariane V. However, an Atlas, Delta, Falcon, or even SLS could be used giving further budgeting. I would have done a direct EESh route, but I want to keep the tradition of Jupiter flybys for OSS missions: that's what Trajectory Browser by NASA says would be the quickest path for a flyby probe.

https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NECs=on&chk_maxMag=on&maxMag=25&chk_maxOCC=on&maxOCC=4&chk_target_list=on&target_list=Saturn&mission_class=oneway&mission_type=flyby&LD1=2030&LD2=2040&maxDT=10&DTunit=yrs&maxDV=10&min=DT&wdw_width=365&submit=Search#a_load_results

With a launch on October 5, 2037 with a dV of 7.94 km/s, and a Jupiter swingby at an altitude of 4.36 R_J  on January 28, 2039, the probe would arrive at Saturn on June 23, 2040, for a total EJS transfer of 2.72 years, instead of the 6 proposed in my initial trajectory. This could cut the transfer time to Haumea by a few years, actually... given this launch date, I would like to see which position for Haumea would be the most optimal for both fuel and time.

When I modify the trajectory to include this (which probably won't take long) I will post it in both the original post and a new one.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Interplanet Janet
Found better trajectories

[Interplanet Janet]

Revised trajectory HERE:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GF_xSTJa7mQ37aFmDcRsh06SYOPoPD0e

[insert_name]

Getting a video from Saturn would be hard because of bandwidth, not mass, it would take a long time to transmit, and time is not something an atmospheric probe has a lot of

[Starman4308]

On 1/10/2019 at 10:40 AM, Interplanet Janet said:

1. Since it's on an escape trajectory from the Solar System, what cargo will it carry for aliens to find?
2. Would it be feasible to have a camera embedded into the probe to take a picture of the Saturnian atmosphere?
3. To get to Haumea, how close would the carrier-relay have to fly to Saturn?
4. Would it be possible to make a mockup of it using RSS? (preferably both imgur photographs AND a youtube video)

1) Most likely, a rehash of the Voyager/Pioneer cargo. If it's not too mass-intensive, something to make it unusual, because as stated, it's hard to make a probe look like anything other than a small asteroid until you get really close.

2) It'd probably need to be a very sturdily built camera; gas giant atmospheric probes have very, very strong atmospheric deeceleration.

3) No comment.

4) Only 80 years away in my newest RP-0 career!

There is, however, one crucial factor that will likely prevent this mission from happening: the ice giants. They're more scientifically interesting, they have good transfer windows at about the same time, and they'd draw from the same stock of RTG material as your proposed Haumea probe. I find it unlikely that we'd get both a Haumea probe and ice giant missions at the same time, and frankly, I suspect the ice giants are more scientifically valuable.

The pre-decadal study is an excellent survey of that proposed mission.

On 1/10/2019 at 11:12 AM, p1t1o said:

A mass of energetic but stable organic compounds to show that we understand chemistry.

A critical mass of uranium in a sub-critical arrangement to show that we understand nuclear concepts.

A mass of lithiuim deuteride for ummmm....ummm....ballast?

All wrapped up in a pure gold, precisely machined container to show that we understand fine machining/metallurgical principles and precise engineering.

1) That is not going to survive the harsh environment of space for hundreds of millenia. By the time it's picked up, those "energetic but stable" organic compounds will long since have been destroyed by cosmic radiation.

2) The RTG should be pretty good evidence of that.

3) Somehow, I don't think aliens have seen Star Trek.

4) So, totally unlike the Voyager golden record?

On 1/10/2019 at 2:28 PM, kerbiloid said:

A two-stage thermonuke of Ulam-Teller scheme.

That's literally forbidden by the Outer Space Treaty, not to mention that all your goals can be achieved by less inflammatory means... like the U-238 cover over the Voyager golden disk (providing an age estimate), and the fact that a space probe is already high-tech gear.

[Interplanet Janet]

On 1/13/2019 at 2:58 PM, insert_name said:

Getting a video from Saturn would be hard because of bandwidth, not mass, it would take a long time to transmit, and time is not something an atmospheric probe has a lot of

Yes. At most, to keep atmospheric data a priority, it could take, maybe... a rather low-resolution picture? And only one? Just to take it? Hopefully in color...

So... yeah. That sound like a good compromise?

[Interplanet Janet]

No replies in 16 hours? This thread must be dead! ;(

[Racescort666]

On 1/13/2019 at 3:20 PM, Starman4308 said:

1) That is not going to survive the harsh environment of space for hundreds of millenia. By the time it's picked up, those "energetic but stable" organic compounds will long since have been destroyed by cosmic radiation.

2) The RTG should be pretty good evidence of that.

3) Somehow, I don't think aliens have seen Star Trek.

4) So, totally unlike the Voyager golden record?

He's making a fusion bomb.

[Interplanet Janet]

5 hours ago, Racescort666 said:

He's making a fusion bomb.

i noticed that

retroactively