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Numberyellow

Weird set of issues

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OK, so let me start with some background...

I was really big into this game when 1.2.2 was new. I put in over a thousand hours, without even realizing i'd done it. I was building all kinds of cool stuff, and using quite a few mods to do it. Finally, my ideas got so ambitious, that 1.2.2, combined with my hardware, were unable to handle what i was doing. Performance became so poor, that i simply had to put the game down, in the hopes that squad would one day better optimize the game, and plug the memory leaks. According to everything i've read, 1.6 does just that..better performance, and no/minimal memory leakage. So i decided it was time to come back.

My mods are working with 1.6, problem is that my crafts are broken in various interesting ways.. For example: a couple of my craft use the mk2 expansion tapered tail extension.... there are 2 variants (formerly referred to as meshes) when i built the crafts in 1.2.2, the "elevated" mesh was used....when i load the craft in 1.6, it has magically changed itself to the standard mesh. Now, it's simple to just change it back to "elevated", and it's fixed...but it begs the question: "if that can magically change, then what else has changed, that i can't immediately detect?"

Another example is when i load custom parts, made with UbioZur's welding, or crafts made with custom welded parts....I loaded a plane, that was using an air intake from mk2expansion....the weldment's .cfg file shows me that the intake is calling for a specific texture file, that is present in the target directory...yet, when the part loads, the texture is missing, and the part is pure white.. same deal with an engine shroud on the tail end of the part...

Another custom welded part is now a jumbled mess, when loaded in 1.6 despite no changes to the .cfg file.

So, i figured i would try earlier versions of the game, with version-appropriate mods, to see if these issues would come up there, as well....and they did. Testing with 1.4.5, and 1.5.1, i encountered these same issues. I'm thinking there has to be something of a functional nature, that has changed in one of the versions between 1.2.2, and 1.4.5.

Is anyone aware of any changes made by squad, to base KSP, that might cause these issues, introduced between 1.2.2, and 1.4.5? If so, is there any way to make it so my crafts and welds will work properly with the newer versions?

IF i can't fix this, it may mean i just can't play anymore, because i have WAY too much time, and effort, and creativity invested in what i've already built, to simply start over... i'd be completely unable to recreate everything i've already done, and it wouldn't be any fun to even try.

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I think you need a bit of historical background (damn, I'm that old already?) :D 

From 1.2.2 to 1.3.1, KSP was using a previous version of Unity (I didn't tested anything on KSP previous to 1.2.2, so I will not include them on my explanation).

On 1.4.0 Squad made a bold move: they upgraded to a newer Unity version. Unfortunately, Unity is not known for consistency over releases (and, to tell you the true, few games engines are), and so a huge part of changes and adaptions had to be made - these were tackled from 1.4.1 to 1.4.5. Some changes were somewhat deep, other only cosmetics. But in the bottom line, some core business changed, from the PQS to Parts. And stock parachutes. And some parallelism on the guts. Oh, yes! Making History (that can make some mods as TweakScale to bork, as it also instruments GameData on Main Menu).

1.5.0 (the Abbreviated) and 1.5.1 focused on less drastic improvements (as control seats being able to be launched with Kerbals, and Kerbals being allowed to drop the Helmet and, I think, the collar - I forgot, I skipped 1.5.x entirely on my gaming). And added some more parts using the new VARIANT module. 1.6.0 (the Short Lived) and 1.6.1 also didn't added anything too drastic, and focused on bug fixing and performance enhancements. And one or two Parts being replaced by new ones (in reality, new parts with the same name and look, but completely reworked to use the new subsystems).

So, really, your issues is due the changes on the 1.4.x era, when they started to pave the way to what we have today. Ubioweld I know very well , and the new Parts features will play havoc with it for sure - it's a lot of time since I mangled with that code, but from what I remember, Ubioweld will need some care in order to support the VARIANT parts (it's one of the things that bitten me on the SAS on TweakScale, by the way).

One thing that you can try is to install 1.3.1, 1.4.3, 1.5.1 and 1.6.1, and then load and save sequentially from the oldest to the newest in order to take advantage of the automatic converter from the previous versions that KSP need to implement on each new version. You will need to have the latest version of your mods for each KSP version. And yeah, I know - it's a lot of work.

Note that I'm suggesting 1.4.3 and not 1.4.5 due that PQS thingy that could brake some mods that handle statics, and since there're nothing on 1.4.5 that you really need (as you are aiming 1.6.1), you don't need to waste time with this.

 

 

Oh, yes. You may want o install this:

and pehaps this:

 

 

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I remember someone talking about a conversion script made in Excel. This can help to understand the changes and, perhaps, extend the idea...

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18 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I think you need a bit of historical background (damn, I'm that old already?) :D 

From 1.2.2 to 1.3.1, KSP was using a previous version of Unity (I didn't tested anything on KSP previous to 1.2.2, so I will not include them on my explanation).

On 1.4.0 Squad made a bold move: they upgraded to a newer Unity version. Unfortunately, Unity is not known for consistency over releases (and, to tell you the true, few games engines are), and so a huge part of changes and adaptions had to be made - these were tackled from 1.4.1 to 1.4.5. Some changes were somewhat deep, other only cosmetics. But in the bottom line, some core business changed, from the PQS to Parts. And stock parachutes. And some parallelism on the guts. Oh, yes! Making History (that can make some mods as TweakScale to bork, as it also instruments GameData on Main Menu).

1.5.0 (the Abbreviated) and 1.5.1 focused on less drastic improvements (as control seats being able to be launched with Kerbals, and Kerbals being allowed to drop the Helmet and, I think, the collar - I forgot, I skipped 1.5.x entirely on my gaming). And added some more parts using the new VARIANT module. 1.6.0 (the Short Lived) and 1.6.1 also didn't added anything too drastic, and focused on bug fixing and performance enhancements. And one or two Parts being replaced by new ones (in reality, new parts with the same name and look, but completely reworked to use the new subsystems).

So, really, your issues is due the changes on the 1.4.x era, when they started to pave the way to what we have today. Ubioweld I know very well , and the new Parts features will play havoc with it for sure - it's a lot of time since I mangled with that code, but from what I remember, Ubioweld will need some care in order to support the VARIANT parts (it's one of the things that bitten me on the SAS on TweakScale, by the way).

One thing that you can try is to install 1.3.1, 1.4.3, 1.5.1 and 1.6.1, and then load and save sequentially from the oldest to the newest in order to take advantage of the automatic converter from the previous versions that KSP need to implement on each new version. You will need to have the latest version of your mods for each KSP version. And yeah, I know - it's a lot of work.

Note that I'm suggesting 1.4.3 and not 1.4.5 due that PQS thingy that could brake some mods that handle statics, and since there're nothing on 1.4.5 that you really need (as you are aiming 1.6.1), you don't need to waste time with this.

 

 

Oh, yes. You may want o install this:

and pehaps this:

 

 

Thanks a lot! This confirms my suspicions.. That there were serious functional changes made to KSP between 1.2.2, and 1.4.5. This explains a LOT.

Now, i have a 1.2.2 install, which is my main, where i did all my work....i also have test installs for 1.4.5, 1.5.1, and 1.6.0. So i guess i need one for 1.4.3, and i actually MUST make completely sure that all the mods i load into them are absolutely version matched. You're right, this is going to be a LOT of work....and WAY less fun than spending the equivalent amount of time and effort on building an aircraft....It's made more difficult, by:

 - The fact that not everyone is completely specific on their release notes, as to exactly what version of KSP the various releases of their mods are for.. or use confusing naming conventions for their releases.

 - Weird cases like with OPT Spaceplane, where the original author is gone, and the person maintaining it, does so by way of ANOTHER mod, to update config files on the original mod. That entire situation is VERY confusing..

 - Various dependencies, with their own versions, and quirks, and confusing directions for proper usage (install order, etc).

 - The ease by which mods with bundled dependencies can overwrite the proper ones, if installed "out of order".

- A host of other issues.

 

It's almost enough to make me want to give up altogether, and just wash my hands of this game. It should not be this hard to get everything working.

My fear is that by the time i get a usable install of the latest version, there's going to be yet ANOTHER update, that will render all the time i spent completely worthless. I mean, we now have 1.6.1, less than a month after we got 1.6.0. The very best i can hope for, is to get a stable, working install of 1.5.1. But i need the performance and memory utilization improvements that come with 1.6x, because i'm STILL running the same hardware configuration i was when i was using 1.2.2, and i absolutely cannot afford ANY hardware upgrades for the foreseeable future...

I seem to be stuck in a really tough place...

Do you have any suggestions, to make this whole process less painful?

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19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

Thanks a lot! This confirms my suspicions.. That there were serious functional changes made to KSP between 1.2.2, and 1.4.5. This explains a LOT.

I like to call them improvements, bug fixes and technical debits being paid. :D 

KSP has the complexity of a small Operating System. Something near Windows 95 or Android 1.0. To make things more interesting, the game engine it was choosen to implement the game is both their main reason for the success, but also the very culprit for the worst problems they had and have. Como dizemos por aqui, "Rapadura é doce, mas não é mole não". ("rapadura" is a food derived from the cannae, one of the steps before being processed into sugar: extremely sweet, but hard as a rock, you can break a tooth if you are not careful).

It's hard to believe, but things are way better than before. We have some nasty issues to solve (landing gears and pads, as it appears) but things are really better nowadays. Try some playing with 1.6.1 and a minimal set of add'ons (I'm using KAX, AirplanePlus, TweakScale and Atmospheric Autopilot for now - I like planes a lot) and see for yourself.

 

19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

Now, i have a 1.2.2 install, which is my main, where i did all my work....i also have test installs for 1.4.5, 1.5.1, and 1.6.0. So i guess i need one for 1.4.3, and i actually MUST make completely sure that all the mods i load into them are absolutely version matched. You're right, this is going to be a LOT of work....and WAY less fun than spending the equivalent amount of time and effort on building an aircraft....

How about trying 1.3.1? There're some guys "doing it right this time", backporting everything to 1.3.1 . A considerable amount of the performance issues were on the add'ons, not only on KSP. Most modders here are not professional developers, they are hacking their way in on the trade. And they are way better on it nowadays (I see a brilliant future for some of them, by the way). Some people are backporting some new code to be used on the 1.3.1, and this will make a significant difference.

I don't have too much contact with this niche, but I had noticed some mentions on the "1.3.1" on the github newstream. Perhaps you can get some info here:

 

19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

 - The fact that not everyone is completely specific on their release notes, as to exactly what version of KSP the various releases of their mods are for.. or use confusing naming conventions for their releases.

 - Weird cases like with OPT Spaceplane, where the original author is gone, and the person maintaining it, does so by way of ANOTHER mod, to update config files on the original mod. That entire situation is VERY confusing..

 - Various dependencies, with their own versions, and quirks, and confusing directions for proper usage (install order, etc).

 - The ease by which mods with bundled dependencies can overwrite the proper ones, if installed "out of order".

- A host of other issues.

I'm going to be somewhat harsh on the following sentences, but I don't have in me the ability to make bitter things look sweat. I'm an objectivist by need of the trade. :)

Do you know that scenes on Mad Max Thunder-dome, when Max reaches that kid's settlement? Or perhaps the "Lord of the Flies" novel? Now try to imagine that kids with a computer, a compiler and an Internet connection. :) 

Immature and/or uneducated people gathers together and manage to accomplish marvelous things. People at their best, I say. But sooner or later, their lack of proper preparation for the tasks starts to pullback their efforts, and since most of them doesn't have the proper knowledge to recognize the new "threats" and fewer have the maturity to consider that they need to learn more from who have such knowledge, it's unavoidable that all of that impacts negatively the status quo.

We had some very good opportunities here on the recent past, but virtually all of them were wasted by ego and immaturity (to the point in which things can start to be legally dangerous).

That "1.3.1 ecosystem" I mentioned earlier appears to be one of the first steps into the right direction - that Continuous Integration kraken-poop works for sites, not for product versions that need to be maintained for years.

And no, things are not exactly 'bad". Just bitter (I like beer, by the way). I have some ideas, but right now… I'm focused on the tasks on my hand.

 

19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

My fear is that by the time i get a usable install of the latest version, there's going to be yet ANOTHER update, that will render all the time i spent completely worthless.

Don't update! :) I skipped 1.5.x series entirely (besides some small features that I wanted to use on my novels), and I just adopted 1.6 because all the issues I have with 1.6 are also happening on 1.4.5 and need to be fixed anyway, and the performance enhancements (mainly, the VAB/SPH memory consumption being solved) were killing me on 1.4.x. You did the "right thing" - it's not broken for you? Don't update.

Of course, you can't have the cake and eat it too. Now you have a new version that solves a problem that you have, and need a path to this newest version. The absence of a proper path is the problem to be tacked.

 

19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

I mean, we now have 1.6.1, less than a month after we got 1.6.0. The very best i can hope for, is to get a stable, working install of 1.5.1. But i need the performance and memory utilization improvements that come with 1.6x, because i'm STILL running the same hardware configuration i was when i was using 1.2.2, and i absolutely cannot afford ANY hardware upgrades for the foreseeable future...

Things are less ugly than it appears. I have virtually ZERO problems with any code that works on 1.5.1 and was tested on 1.6.0 , and just some things on meshes that started to misbehave in a way some other meshes did on 1.4.x - what means that Squad is dropping support for legacy things they don't use anymore (and believe me, this is a good thing - trying to embrace the World was, IMHO, one of the main reasons they flopped on 1.4.0).

Moving things from 1.2.2 to 1.3.1 is, IMHO, the best first step. Of course, if we had automated tools to help on it things would be marvelously better. Some guys here have a huge knowledge base of every part ever developed for KSP since 1.0 (I think), and this guy would insanely help on the task. All I can do is to hope they decide to attack this problem, or at least open the database to ones that want to do that.

Moving vessels between KSP Versions is renaming parts and replacing Modules (while converting data). Really, it's a data converter that is , really, a commodity on Service Buses. It's feasible.

Moving savegames can be trickier, but in essence, it's still feasible - but would need a lot more understandings from KSP guts, what make the task harder to be tacked down without direct involvement from Squad, what can be impossible due N.D.A.s.

 

19 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

I seem to be stuck in a really tough place...

Do you have any suggestions, to make this whole process less painful?

Painkillers? #tumdumtss :sticktongue: Ok, bad joke. Serious now. :D 

You are not alone. There a lot of people stuck on 1.3.1 considering migrating right now. Your first step is find this people and exchange experiences, and gather together to make your voice stronger.

 

Edited by Lisias
Krakens! It's full of bad grammars!!! =P

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9 hours ago, Lisias said:

I like to call them improvements, bug fixes and technical debits being paid. :D 

Well, i mean, yeah...they are improvements, and minimum payments toward technical debt....but they are still representative of major, and fundamental functional changes to the core of the game, that impact the way that it works.....which breaks stuff...bigly..

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

KSP has the complexity of a small Operating System. Something near Windows 95 or Android 1.0. To make things more interesting, the game engine it was chooses to implement the game is both their main reason for the success, but also the very culprit for the worst problems they had and have.

Are we talking Original flavor Win95, or Win95B? Because original flavor, whilst better than 3.1x, was kinda crap, until they fixed it..

That being said: Win95, and Android 1.0 were both revolutionary in their own ways, and laid the groundwork for what we have today...and in my opinion, KSP was revolutionary, because it did what it did, better than anything else like it. I've often described KSP (preferably with mods) as being "the greatest virtual lego set that's ever existed". If you can imagine it, there's a very good chance you can build it.. That's what i love about KSP......the limitless expression of imagination. And it's easily accessible...the learning curve is not steep, anyone can get into this game. I love that they made KSP so powerful, and so complex, yet so easy to learn.. That's a hell of an achievement, all on it's own.

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

It's hard to believe, but things are way better than before. We have some nasty issues to solve (landing gears and pads, as it appears) but things are really better nowadays. Try some playing with 1.6.1 and a minimal set of add'ons (I'm using KAX, AirplanePlus, TweakScale and Atmospheric Autopilot for now - I like planes a lot) and see for yourself.

I'm sure it's better...which is why i really want to use it.. But if i can't bring my save, and crafts with me, then there's no point...i'm not willing to start over, and i absolutely cannot reproduce any of the things i'd be leaving behind. There's no point in getting attached to it, if it can't be my daily driver...

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

How about trying 1.3.1?

I've actually read through, and posted to the thread you linked to....if 1.3.1. performs better than 1.2.2, and won't break anything, i may migrate all my stuff to that version. Then i can get back to building cool stuff, while i mess around with getting 1.6x right, on the side.

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

I'm going to be somewhat harsh on the following sentences, but I don't have in me the ability to make bitter things look sweat. I'm an objectivist by need of the trade. :)

Do you know that scene on Mad Max Thunder-dome, when Max reaches that kid's settlement? Or perhaps the "Lord of the Flies" novel? Now try to imagine them with a computer, a compiler and an Internet connection. :) 

Immature and/or uneducated people gathers together and manage to accomplish marvelous things. People on their best, I say. But sooner or later, their lack of proper preparation for the tasks starts to pullback their efforts, and since most of them doesn't have the proper knowledge to recognize the new "threats" and fewer have the maturity to consider that they need to learn more from who have such knowledge, it's unavoidable that all of these impacts negatively the status quo.

We had some very good opportunities here on the recent past, but virtually all of them were wasted by ego and immaturity (to the point in which things can start to be legally dangerous).

That "1.3.1 ecosystem" I mentioned earlier appears to be one of the first steps into the right direction - that Continuous Integration bull-poop works for sites, not for product versions that need to be maintained for years.

And no, things are not exactly 'bad". Just bitter (I like beer, by the way). I have some ideas, but right now… I'm focused on the tasks on my hand.

I'm a realist....i can be optimistic, and positive, but when it comes down to it, i see things as they are, not how i wish they were... which is why sometimes i get myself into trouble, because i sometimes forget to filter what i say, and over sensitivity leads to offense, and, well, yeah....

I'm not familiar with Mad Max (never interested me)...i'm vaguely familiar with "lord of the flies"...i think enough to see where you're going with this..

Anywho, i'm talking about things like multiple mods sharing the same dependencies, and bundled mods, but they don't always bundle the same versions, so when you install them, the different versions of the bundled stuff ends up stepping on each other, so you end up with like a version of RPM that's like 3 versions out of date, and 9 different versions of ModuleManager...or, again, the super confusing situation with OPT, where jade uses ANOTHER mod, to maintain the first mod, but the instructions on how to use it are so confusing, i can't figure out exactly what i should be downloading, or how to properly use the thing.. Things like this REALLY make it difficult to keep current..

I agree, this enthusiast scene, built around 1.3.1, is very interesting, and warrants further investigation....perhaps they are doing something right....however, their master list of 1.3.1-compatable mods is far from complete.. but i can overlook that, because i'm smart enough to fill in the blanks myself. hunting things down, is just time-consuming, tedious, and immensely boring.

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

Of course, you can't have the cake and eat it too. Now you have a new version that solves a problem that you have, and need a path to the newest version. The absence of a proper path is the problem to be tacked.

Agreed. But i don't know what can be done to create this path....if such a thing is even possible. My save works just fine in 1.6....my nav sat is still in orbit, and everything else is where i parked it.. the problem is the breaking of the crafts that took me so long to create. if that could be overcome, i THINK 1.6x would be viable for everyday use, for my purposes....

On that note, i wanted to apologize....i blamed TweakScale for breaking my aircraft, before i knew that the unity upgrade in 1.4x was a literal game changer. All the testing i've done verifies that TS isn't responsible for the problem...so yeah, sorry.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

Moving things from 1.2.2 to 1.3.1 is, IMHO, the best first step. Of course, if we had automated tool to help on it things would be marvelously better. Some guys here have a huge knowledge base of every part ever developed for KSP since 1.0 (I think), and this guy would help insanely on the task. All I can do is to hope they decide to attack this problem, or at least open the database to one that wants to do that.

Moving vessels between KSP Versions is renaming parts and replacing Modules (while converting data). Really, it's a data converter that is , really, a commodity on Service Buses. It's feasible.

Moving savegames can be trickier, but in essence, it's still feasible - but would need a lot more understandings from KSP guts, what make the task harder to be tacked down without direct involvement from Squad, what can be impossible due N.D.A.s.

Yeah, an automated tool would be awesome. As i said, my savegame, surprisingly, works just fine with 1.6...and not ALL of my craft are broken....I was flying one of them, in 1.6, on my 1.2.2 save, with no issues...However, enough of my aircraft are broken, to cause me distress, because i'm not sure how to properly fix them, and i can't be sure that there aren't things wrong with ANY of them, that i can't immediately detect..

So, yes, things are less ugly than they appear....but they're still ugly enough, to keep me out.

 

And yes....that was a terrible joke, don't ever do that again.:D

Edited by Numberyellow

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12 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

I've actually read through, and posted to the thread you linked to....if 1.3.1. performs better than 1.2.2, and won't break anything, i may migrate all my stuff to that version. Then i can get back to building cool stuff, while i mess around with getting 1.6x right, on the side.

That's the catch: you will not be able to update your stuff to 1.6 without passing through 1.3.1 first.

People that are managing to get their stuff to 1.5 and 1.6 are the ones that updated their crafts from 1.3.1 to 1.4, suffered all that pain (most of them you don't need to suffer, as now we know what to do - at that time, we didn't), and then are migrating to the newer ones.

I don't have  notice of no one that got right from a heavily modded 1.2.2 to 1.5 or 1.6. Too much of a change, and migration code usually only works from the last version to the current one.

And chances are that you could settle up to a 1.3.1 with updated mods and get good results, saving you (at least for now) to all the migration process to 1.6

18 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

Anywho, i'm talking about things like multiple mods sharing the same dependencies, and bundled mods, but they don't always bundle the same versions, so when you install them, the different versions of the bundled stuff ends up stepping on each other, so you end up with like a version of RPM that's like 3 versions out of date, and 9 different versions of ModuleManager...or, again, the super confusing situation with OPT, where jade uses ANOTHER mod, to maintain the first mod, but the instructions on how to use it are so confusing, i can't figure out exactly what i should be downloading, or how to properly use the thing.. Things like this REALLY make it difficult to keep current..

And yeah, these are the very reason I think we utterly missed the opportunity to do a decent job in the past 18 months. We have the tools that could accomplish that, but the tools just don't do what we really need. They compromised on doing what most users need (thing on 50% + 1), and that's it. If you need anything different from that 50%+1 users, you are on your own.

It's the difference between having information and having knowledge, I think. Information is you knowing that tomato is a fruit. Knowledge is not using tomatoes on fruit cakes. :D 

I'm trying to simplify things on my add'ons, but I can't save the World alone. And I am not even sure if my way of doing things is, indeed, the best one. :/ 

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3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

That's the catch: you will not be able to update your stuff to 1.6 without passing through 1.3.1 first.

People that are managing to get their stuff to 1.5 and 1.6 are the ones that updated their crafts from 1.3.1 to 1.4, suffered all that pain (most of them you don't need to suffer, as now we know what to do - at that time, we didn't), and then are migrating to the newer ones.

I don't have  notice of no one that got right from a heavily modded 1.2.2 to 1.5 or 1.6. Too much of a change, and migration code usually only works from the last version to the current one.

And chances are that you could settle up to a 1.3.1 with updated mods and get good results, saving you (at least for now) to all the migration process to 1.6

Here's the thing....how does one "update" crafts? I noticed when i was opening the .craft files in a text editor, that they are specifically marked as "belonging" to KSP 1.2.2.

Does updating them require that i go and open, then re-save every single craft?

 

As i said, my savegame from 1.2.2....i copied it from my working directory, and dropped it into 1.6, and it worked with no issues......so i know that can be done...it's the crafts that are the problem, but you have proposed a possible solution, so all i can do, is give that a try, and see what happens. In the meantime, 1.3.1 may be a viable alternative for now. To that end, i will begin work on building a 1.3.1 test install... it's going to take a while, because i've done this same process so many times over the last week, that i am sick of doing it.

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2 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

Here's the thing....how does one "update" crafts? I noticed when i was opening the .craft files in a text editor, that they are specifically marked as "belonging" to KSP 1.2.2.

Does updating them require that i go and open, then re-save every single craft?

As a rule of thumb, opening the craft is enough. KSP has code builtin that knows how to convert old stuff into the current version. I had some small issues from updating old crafts from the KAX samples, but they all related to mods, not KSP itself. What leads us to the real problem: KSP doesn't knows squat about anything not made my Squad. It's an obvious information, but what's not obvious is that mods don't usually does the same - I found really few add'ons able to read older stuff and converting it to the current ones.

One thing that can help you on diagnosing things is Craft Manager. And they support 1.3.1. 

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6 minutes ago, Lisias said:

As a rule of thumb, opening the craft is enough. KSP has code builtin that knows how to convert old stuff into the current version. I had some small issues from updating old crafts from the KAX samples, but they all related to mods, not KSP itself. What leads us to the real problem: KSP doesn't knows squat about anything not made my Squad. It's an obvious information, but what's not obvious is that mods don't usually does the same - I found really few add'ons able to read older stuff and converting it to the current ones.

One thing that can help you on diagnosing things is Craft Manager. And they support 1.3.1. 

Wow....how did i not know about this mod before?

While it looks useful, and i can certainly think of a few scenarios where some of it's functionality will come in VERY handy, i fail to see how it can help in diagnosing anything? Maybe i'm missing something?

none the less, i will be incorporating this mod into my lineup on the 1.3.1 install, after i verify that all the other mods i need, are playing nicely together.

Now i'm going to guess that 1.3.1 is enough like 1.2.2, where it can still understand everything in the .craft files. I wish i knew what the value was for "meshes", in a pre-1.4x craft file...because after 1.4x, as you pointed out, parts with multiple versions, switch from "mesh" to "variant", for selection in the SPH/VAB

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7 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

While it looks useful, and i can certainly think of a few scenarios where some of it's functionality will come in VERY handy, i fail to see how it can help in diagnosing anything? Maybe i'm missing something?

If the craft is marked as unloadable, it has a feature that lists every part by name with the mod you need to download in order to use it. Had it an option to link directly to the newest version of the mod to your current KSP Version, it would be the best tool in the whole Kerbol System. :)

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6 minutes ago, Lisias said:

If the craft is marked as unloadable, it has a feature that lists every part by name with the mod you need to download in order to use it. Had it an option to link directly to the newest version of the mod to your current KSP Version, it would be the best tool in the whole Kerbol System. :)

Oh, so you're saying i could use that, to track down mod versions.. that could work, i suppose. Though, i'd rather just track the mods down, before hand, and install them, before i fire anything up. it is a good idea though.

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I'm looking into OPT, OPT Legacy and OPT Reconfig to see exactly what you mean. Yeah, I understand perfectly - it took me some minutes to realize what's happening. :) 

OPT is still being maintained by the owner, but he apparently is happy on keeping it working for 1.3 .  Some people added features to this base add'on to support USI, FAR and WBI - WBI definitively is something you should give a look, by the way.

Some other guys wanted to use OPT on newer KSP, so they created the OPT Reconfig add'on to revamp the base mod to be used on 1.4.5 (and highly probably on 1.5 and perahsp 1.6, I will test it - this add'on is a must, this time it's me that doesn't know how I missed that!).

Reconfig uses B9 Parts Switch as Parts reconfiguration utility (a kind of VARIANT as KSP has now). I know this guy very well, as it was being improperly added to parts with RealFuels/ModularFuelSwitch and FSFuelSwitch by third parties, and this was… hummm… "unsafe" for TweakScale. :)  But as long nobody tries to add anything else into OPTs parts, everything will work fine.

I agree. Some additional explanations and background info would be very helpful to the end-user.

On the bottom line: you don't need Reconfig, but if you are using 1.4.x it can add some additional goodies. For now, assuming that you can live with 1.3.1 for some time, you definitively don't need anything else but OPT itself.

Edited by Lisias
Bad... "grammars". :)

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@K.Yeon Hasn't logged in here since september of 2017, and i can find no evidence that he's still maintaining OPT. @JadeOfMaar Came up with the OPT Reconfig mod, to, i guess make OPT work with newer KSP. I can attest to the fact that Base OPT, with Reconfig, does work on 1.5.1, and 1.6.0. I'm guessing i installed it correctly.. But yeah...all this talk of OPT, and OPT legacy, and all that...it's very confusing.

I'm familiar with the WildBlue Industries family of mods.. in my 1.2.2 work, The Heisenberg airship parts pack was in use, and i was going to start experimenting with some of the rover packs...but then i walked away, because of the whole performance thing.

Im in the process of tracking down all the mods...but it's very tedious, time consuming, and annoying. I do hope this works.

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1 hour ago, Numberyellow said:

@K.Yeon Hasn't logged in here since september of 2017, and i can find no evidence that he's still maintaining OPT. @JadeOfMaar Came up with the OPT Reconfig mod, to, i guess make OPT work with newer KSP. I can attest to the fact that Base OPT, with Reconfig, does work on 1.5.1, and 1.6.0. I'm guessing i installed it correctly.. But yeah...all this talk of OPT, and OPT legacy, and all that...it's very confusing.

Ouch… I had read until this page (or near it), and dumbly though that BOTH guys were authoring OPT!  I just double check it and came to d this after your heads up! (sigh) 

Well… I'll try to pay more attention - things are already messed enough, they don't need me to bring more mess!

 

1 hour ago, Numberyellow said:

Im in the process of tracking down all the mods...but it's very tedious, time consuming, and annoying. I do hope this works.

There's CKAN - but I don't know if it would really help you. It didn't helped me, but some people like it.

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I can tell you with ease that between KSP 1.2.2 and 1.6.1 (These numbers are very, very far apart in a software engineer's perspective so do be mindful of that), everything has drastically changed and there's no getting around that. KSP has not died. It is still very alive, therefore the amount of change.

Mk2 Expansion has changed from using interstellar Fuel Switch to B9 Part Switch, and a few of the models in that mod have changed entirely, guaranteeing craft breakage. I maintain OPT now, but I'm not in the business of fixing model problems with its parts, only adding features, fixing configs and eventually bringing new parts to OPT.

KSP 1.3.0 was a high impact, major release, introducing Localization and changes to deep features that easily broke mods.

KSP 1.4.0 was another upgrade to the underlying game engine, therefore, another grand ripple effect on everything that runs on/in KSP. (It's also where Making History comes in.)

Angel-125's mods (Wild Blue Industries) has also changed immensely, and not entirely because of what he wanted and would enjoy catering for (brace yourself. The list of new features is a kilometer long). KSP itself and a few co-dependent mods have recently heavily broken his mods.

The only suggestion I can give you is to be patient, deal with it (the amount of change) and do try to have fun in rebuilding your crafts and infrastructure. It can be just as fun to rediscover how to get something done (and more quickly and efficiently) as it was to get a thing done in the first place. The same creativity you're worried about may also end up going down a different path  and to all-new designs and mission planning, and you can easily forget or cease to care about reviving the old things.

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6 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The only suggestion I can give you is to be patient, deal with it (the amount of change) and do try to have fun in rebuilding your crafts and infrastructure. It can be just as fun to rediscover how to get something done (and more quickly and efficiently) as it was to get a thing done in the first place. The same creativity you're worried about may also end up going down a different path  and to all-new designs and mission planning, and you can easily forget or cease to care about reviving the old things.

Not. Going. To Happen.

Perhaps once i start showcasing my work, it will become clear, why just abandoning everything, and trying to re-create it in another version is utterly impossible. Just the THOUGHT of making the attempt, is enough to make me want to walk away for good.

It's like torching a painting, and telling the artist he has to recreate it from scratch....every inspired creative decision, every brush stroke, every subtle color variation... It is literally impossible, and the attempt would be a massively frustrating, and ultimately fruitless, waste of time.

I don't like online multiplayer games...why? because generally speaking, you do the same thing over and over, and nothing is ever achieved..You never "win", No story is being told...you've not been enriched, or mentally engaged in any meaningful way...You're literally throwing away your time.....and one's time is far too precious to be wasted on identically repetitive endeavors.

"Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." - Carl Sandburg

No, the things i've created, represent literally THOUSANDS of hours of actual effort....not just blowing stuff up, or screwing around. I'm talking about creation...expression of imagination, and the near-limitless potential for creation that this wonderful game provides us with.. I can't just write it all off. I do look forward to being able to create more in the future...but for now, i must salvage what i already have..

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

Ouch… I had read until this page (or near it), and dumbly though that BOTH guys were authoring OPT!  I just double check it and came to d this after your heads up! (sigh) 

Well… I'll try to pay more attention - things are already messed enough, they don't need me to bring more mess!

 

There's CKAN - but I don't know if it would really help you. It didn't helped me, but some people like it.

I looked into CKAN.. I'm a big fan of mod managers....i swore by the Nexus Mod Manager (NMM), back in my days of playing modded Fallout 3.....it was an invaluable tool, especially when running a heavily modded install. CKAN lacks the same functionality of NMM, and is thus, less useful.

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So i've got everything together for my 1.3.1 install....except:

AoA Technologies - Waiting on confirmation that the latest version will work with 1.3.1. (I REALLY hope it does, because the latest version fixes the JSIVariableAnimator error, which i found really annoying)

KAX - No 1.3.1 version, from any of the mod's maintainers. (I posted in the thread, Lisias)

Edited by Numberyellow

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2 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

KAX - No 1.3.1 version, from any of the mod's maintainers. (I posted in the thread, Lisias)

My fault. I'm loading textures on runtime to add Categories to the Advanced Menu, and this changed on 1.4,  so I ended up settling wit 1.4. Other that that, as long as the dependencies are 1.3.1 happy, KAX will be.

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5 hours ago, SpannerMonkey(smce) said:

Hi RE KAX for  131 probably not perfect, I  can't remember if it had any problems after all this time , but well worth a try  https://github.com/SpannerMonkey/KAX/releases

Hey monkey dude..

Yeah, i saw there were 2 beta builds, aimed at 1.3.1, but based on the thread, they didn't appear to be terribly popular.

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

My fault. I'm loading textures on runtime to add Categories to the Advanced Menu, and this changed on 1.4,  so I ended up settling wit 1.4. Other that that, as long as the dependencies are 1.3.1 happy, KAX will be.

wait, what?

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On 1/19/2019 at 10:33 PM, Numberyellow said:

Do you have any suggestions, to make this whole process less painful?

Not meaning to sound like a smart-donkey, but find a version of KSP you enjoy and stick with it. Pull it out of Steam so it won't auto-update. But keep a copy in Steam so that it is up-to-date. I have a 3.0 game I still play on with a favorite save on my desktop. Then I have the 1.6.1 version within Steam that I also piddle with.

Remember, there are no right or wrong ways to play this game.

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12 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Not meaning to sound like a smart-donkey, but find a version of KSP you enjoy and stick with it. Pull it out of Steam so it won't auto-update. But keep a copy in Steam so that it is up-to-date. I have a 3.0 game I still play on with a favorite save on my desktop. Then I have the 1.6.1 version within Steam that I also piddle with.

Remember, there are no right or wrong ways to play this game.

A good buddy of mine on here, suggested the same thing, like 2 years ago. It sounded like a good idea, so i copied my steam KSP directory (which was a heavily modded 1.2.2 install) to a new directory outside of steam, then i deleted the steam KSP directory, and let steam re-install a fresh copy of 1.2.2. i then copied that pristine install to an archive directory.

Since then, i've been keeping an archive of "clean installs" of previous versions....If i need a clean copy for whatever reason, i have it. I would play my isolated 1.2.2 install, and never touch steam...which is why steam says i only have 114 hours played, when i actually have WAAAAAAY more than that.

I really do love my 1.2.2 install....but as i've stated numerous times, including in the first post, my hardware is insufficient to handle the larger stuff i've come up with. I absolutely cannot make proper maneuvers with 6FPS. I stopped playing a year and a half ago, because of this problem...i couldn't afford hardware upgrades then, i can't afford them now, and i won't be able to afford them for the foreseeable future.. so unless you've got a bin of disused computer hardware laying around, that you don't need, that far exceeds my current system specs... Sticking with 1.2.2 really isn't an option.

1.3.1 may be a suitable alternative....i'll let everyone know, once i get an install going, with all the mods i need.

I do appreciate your input though...i don't mean to come off as a jerk, it just annoys me when i have to repeat myself. I'd say not being able to actually fly your creations, might qualify as a wrong way to play the game....and really....not playing at all is even more wrong, lol

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10 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

Since then, i've been keeping an archive of "clean installs" of previous versions....If i need a clean copy for whatever reason, i have it. I would play my isolated 1.2.2 install, and never touch steam.

This is my (current) installments' shortcuts on my desktop:

27_KSP-Icons-on-my-Desktop.jpg

 

The first row is my "serious" gaming. I have a dedicated installment for each game style (or role playing), almost a KSP for savegeame. And they are not all on the same KSP version, I have a gane on 1.4.1 (yet), some on 1.4.5, one for 1.4.3 (the KAX Challenge) and Company are being migrated to 1.6.1 as time allows (I'm personally code reviewing each add-on I'm installing on it).

The second row are for Test Beds for my Development needs (Official or Unofficial). These are the KSP versions I aiming to support directly.

The third row is for Test Beds to be used on older add-ons' versions, when I find something weird on a current one and find the need to test a older version on his natural habitat. It's also useful to play "what if" on some add'ons, I realized KJR/L work on 1.2.2 by clicking on that very icon on the screen (yeah, the smoking gun!).

The last row is for games I play (now and then - or never :D ) and are under Stream's control.

 

10 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

which is why steam says i only have 114 hours played, when i actually have WAAAAAAY more than that.

Right now, I have about 1500 hours of playing on Steam, that were registered before the times I decided to use this setup. Right now? With the awful amount of time I use to testing things? You can bet your mouse I have about 5.000 hours by now -it's usual I leave KSP running by the night executing a scripted mission to test things. It was this way I detected the mods that are leading KSP to a CTD sooner or later (5 hours of running, sometimes). And, YES, there are more than one. And yes, appears to be a bug on Unity. :D 

 

10 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

I really do love my 1.2.2 install....but as i've stated numerous times, including in the first post, my hardware is insufficient to handle the larger stuff i've come up with. I absolutely cannot make proper maneuvers with 6FPS. I stopped playing a year and a half ago, because of this problem...i couldn't afford hardware upgrades then, i can't afford them now, and i won't be able to afford them for the foreseeable future.. so unless you've got a bin of disused computer hardware laying around, that you don't need, that far exceeds my current system specs... Sticking with 1.2.2 really isn't an option.

I completely understand you. By the nature of my profession, I had to spend some serious money some time ago - I bought a MacMini (the very least expensive machine that could do the job). This thingy is a glamorous and expensive potato on KSP. :D 

I'm building a gaming rig using parts found in the trash (almost, I'm buying cheap server parts being disposed for recycling), and I managed to build a very decent and powerful machine this way. Then I decided to "play safe" and bough a GPU card somewhere that non a flea market. The GPU's cooler died, and now I looking for GPU parts on the flea market. :sticktongue:

Meanwhile, i'm getting 6 FPS (downwind) on that glamorous and expensive potato. (sigh)

 

10 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

1.3.1 may be a suitable alternative....i'll let everyone know, once i get an install going, with all the mods i need.

Do you know something weird? I'm getting pretty good performance on my MacPotato using 1.4.1 . Obviously, since that installment is used only as test bed, and for add'ons I reviewed/fixed myself,. this can be misleading.

But yet, that thing appears to be running a bit faster than 1.6.1 when using the very set of add'ons (as long there're no exceptions being thrown everywhere - I suspect that was the reason for my bad times on 1.4.1, everybody were rushing to "support" 1.4.1 and plain ignored - or worst, empty try-catched the exceptions. Handling exceptions is a very expensive task).

 

10 hours ago, Numberyellow said:

I do appreciate your input though...i don't mean to come off as a jerk, it just annoys me when i have to repeat myself. I'd say not being able to actually fly your creations, might qualify as a wrong way to play the game....and really....not playing at all is even more wrong, lol

Being a convicted felon on the subject :P , I feel you. I'm loosing my temper now and then too, and sometimes I end up shooting a friend. :P 

There're some (few but active) fellow kerbonauts that think it's this community's best interest to…. aggressively enforce… their own views about some things. Since their modus operandi are virtually identical to the ones that are really trying to help you (or reaching you for help), sometimes I just react sideways.

This forum is not special on this, it's happening everywhere to tell you the true (Facebook's communities are specially nasty around here), but since this forum is currently the one I care most, it's also the one where these things are also getting harder on my nerves.

In the end, I'm trying to cope with that by deliberately answering things at least at couple hours after reading, sometimes watching this aa motivacional in the mean time: :D 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Lisias
typos! typos! tyops everywehre!!

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