[1.8.1-1] [PLEASE FORK ME] Kopernicus & KittopiaTech

[zeilden]

id just like to start by saying that i am in no way a cappable programmer(i somehow broke a calculator program and could not fix it) but i like to thank the modders of kopernicus for making a magnificent mod for the game. but i believe that Sigma (i think hes the modder) could benifit from an extra pair of hands and i think several people would like to help. i am  learning the basics of programing and personaly i would be happy to learn how to code and debug kopernicus. 

i belive that with an extra pair of hands the work load and the mod could update rapidly.

 

i mean no disrespect to the modder or anyone on this forum my only wish is to make the game better for everyone.

[Mircea The Young]

5 hours ago, Galileo said:

I’d just like to point out that at no point was the mod left hanging. Kopernicus has multiple devs, and while the main one did get busy with school and real life and general motivation to mod, other devs bridged the gap. 

Just understand, a mod taking longer to release an update does not mean that work is not being done. Devs do not get copies of ksp prior to a major release, to prepare their own mod (they used to). They can only start updating once Squad releases their update, and this was a major release and an upgrade on the unity engine. Not once was this mod left flapping in the wind. 

The average user has no idea just how complex a mod Kopernicus is, and it shows every update, but especially this last one, and one only has to look as far as the GitHub repo to see the work that was being done.

Then have I been wrong this whole time? Has everyone who could, did? Could more people working on it, not have helped release this sooner?

[Galileo]

4 hours ago, Mircea The Young said:

Then have I been wrong this whole time? Has everyone who could, did? Could more people working on it, not have helped release this sooner?

Sure, but what does that have to do with it being “left hanging”? What is your argument here?

Sorry, but you are kind of all over the place with your comments.

Basically, I think your expectations are not aligned with the reality here. Reality being, there aren’t droves of devs lined up to help develop Kopernicus. Would it be nice? Sure, but it’s not reality. So what’s the point of screaming that into the void?

Kopernicus does not bring all the devs to the yard. Cuz they’re like “your code is too hard”. Damn right, our code is too hard. I could teach you, but you would probably decide to not help because you realize you like playing more than you like writing code...

Edited February 8, 2020 by Galileo

[Flibble]

13 hours ago, Galileo said:

I could teach you, but you would probably decide to not help because you realize you like playing more than you like writing code...

This is exactly the reason that I don't do more modding and I expect I'm not the only one.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Flibble

[Mircea The Young]

If the coding is hard, then perchance some tutorials would help. Show folks how it all works (to whatever degree possible) and let them decide whether they would in fact rather not help. Starting from the assumption that they most likely won't is making the decision for them.

[ArXen42]

14 hours ago, Galileo said:

Sure, but what does that have to do with it being “left hanging”? What is your argument here?

Sorry, but you are kind of all over the place with your comments.

Basically, I think your expectations are not aligned with the reality here. Reality being, there aren’t droves of devs lined up to help develop Kopernicus. Would it be nice? Sure, but it’s not reality. So what’s the point of screaming that into the void?

Kopernicus does not bring all the devs to the yard. Cuz they’re like “your code is too hard”. Damn right, our code is too hard. I could teach you, but you would probably decide to not help because you realize you like playing more than you like writing code...

Hey, can I ask you (and/or other Kopernicus devs) a question, if you have time for that? I'm a bit curious about technical difficulties that lead to all that 10's of pages of "1.8 release when?!!!" here

What were that "too hard" parts in 1.8.1-1 release? I write some C# almost everyday but haven't tried KSP modding (hopefully just yet), so it would be interesting for me to hear what were the major setbacks. Some problems with adapting to 1.8 changes like new terrain shaders? Or hacks that made Kopernicus work in 1.7 broken in 1.8?

BTW, Kopernicus repo is probably the first time I've seen anybody using CLR typenames instead of aliases (Int32, etc), lol .

 

[Galileo]

2 hours ago, Mircea The Young said:

If the coding is hard, then perchance some tutorials would help. Show folks how it all works (to whatever degree possible) and let them decide whether they would in fact rather not help. Starting from the assumption that they most likely won't is making the decision for them.

That would absolutely help, BUT creating a tutorial on how to code c# in people’s free time? Not gonna happen. People go to university for that sort of thing. To expect the devs to do it in their free time, for zero money,  is asinine.

I think you might be trolling at this point or you just don’t understand how coding or making a plugin like Kopernicus works, and how many people out there aren’t willing to give up that free time to help. You are just continuously arguing the same point that we all agree with.

But it come across as if you are holding the lack of help against the devs, as if they have control over it and it is making you look rather entitled because they aren't getting the update out fast enough for you.

The developers are not actively telling people “no, you can’t help” and I’m sure would welcome help from anyone with know how.

 Nobody disagrees with you that more hands equate to faster development, but that is out of everyone’s control and there is no point arguing it.

Just understand that “hey, the mod is great and I’m thankful for it’s latest update, but it can be done faster with help” while true, is a back-handed compliment, and while you say that’s not your intention, that’s how it keeps coming out.

I hope that validates your comments and allows this thread to continue without being derailed further.

tldr:

Writing a whole tutorial on how to code c# in ones free time is ridiculous. There are schools for that.

nobody disagrees with you. More hands = faster development, but what can be done about it if no one wants to help? Nothing, so we wait. 

let’s just be grateful for the guys that are still working on this mod for the last 5 years, any the only thing they ever ask of anyone is patience.

 

That said, if people want to help, feel free to submit pull requests on GitHub or join the Kopernicus discord and talk with the devs. There is absolutely nothing stopping you. All the code is there, all the current development is available for all to see.

 

 

1 hour ago, ArXen42 said:

Hey, can I ask you (and/or other Kopernicus devs) a question, if you have time for that? I'm a bit curious about technical difficulties that lead to all that 10's of pages of "1.8 release when?!!!" here

What were that "too hard" parts in 1.8.1-1 release? I write some C# almost everyday but haven't tried KSP modding (hopefully just yet), so it would be interesting for me to hear what were the major setbacks. Some problems with adapting to 1.8 changes like new terrain shaders? Or hacks that made Kopernicus work in 1.7 broken in 1.8?

BTW, Kopernicus repo is probably the first time I've seen anybody using CLR typenames instead of aliases (Int32, etc), lol .

 

I don’t mean that the code is actually hard. It’s a parody of a song. I just made it relate to Kopernicus. I can hardly code a “hello world” mod, much less Kopernicus lol. I just work closely with the devs enough to see potential help come and go. People would rather do a fork, compile, and release rather that assist the devs. Sweet, sweet internets point to be had that way  

heres the song for reference:

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Galileo

[linuxgurugamer]

Here is a real world example of the nebulous type of help available:

About a year ago I was writing a mod called KeoCache; it was a Kerbal version of Geocaching.  I asked for help, and got two other people involved; one on the web sidd and the other on the C# side. I was happily doing a lot of coding live on stream, and got the main code working well.  The web side also was going well.  But the third person who had volunteered to work on the web<->C$ integration never really did anything, and eventually gave up.  This was extremely discouraging. Partially as a result, the mod is in limbo now.

Help is useful, but it has to be real and sustained to be useful

Edited February 8, 2020 by linuxgurugamer

[Sigma88]

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Hell is useful

Couldn't agree more

[Murdabenne]

22 hours ago, Mircea The Young said:

Then have I been wrong this whole time? Has everyone who could, did? Could more people working on it, not have helped release this sooner?

The surest way to increase defects and slow development in a software project is to throw more developers at it.  Its a well known axiom, going back to the 1970's.  Google "Brooks Law".  This applies anywhere in the development process, especially when you are dealing with API level changes. Some tasks simply cannot be divided, they depend on a sequence.  The famous saying is while it takes one woman nine months to make one baby, nine women can't make a baby in one month.

New developers need to come up to speed on the project, their code needs tighter review until it earns trust, the senior coders who know the project best have to spend their time checking new code and coders which takes away from their productive time actually designing the solutions and implementing them.  These are just a few of the problems with "just get more helpers" anywhere except at the beginning of the next update cycle.

I hope that helps you understand a bit of what developer face.

P.S.  If anyone is thinking about helping for the next release, now would be the time to do so - get in there and learn the codebase and do bug fixes.  It will help you by getting to know the app, and showing your code can be trusted - and as a bonus, give the authors some breathing room after a hard slog getting this up to 1.8.1 release.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Murdabenne
ps added

[HebaruSan]

14 minutes ago, Murdabenne said:

The surest way to increase defects and slow development in a software project is to throw more developers at it.  Its a well known axiom, going back to the 1970's.  Google "Brooks Law".

And that's based on a (comparatively) best case scenario of hiring professional, trained developers who plan to spend 2+ years working full time on your project. All aspects get worse for a loose association of casuals working in their spare time. If a contributor submits three pull requests and disappears, the time spent getting them acclimated is a near total loss, as they'll never hit the high experience level required to compensate for what the expert members could have been doing with that time instead.

It also bears mentioning that competent programmers' time is typically over-committed already. They're not sitting out there waiting for someone to suggest a project; they're already working on projects, probably more than they can keep up with.

[tomf]

I'm landing on Troni from the other worlds pack and I'm finding that wheels, lander legs and drills keep falling through tthe surface.

Is this likely to be an issue with Kopernicus itself or with the planet pack?

It doesn't look like the planet pack has been updated in a while. can anyone suggest a similar pack that is still being worked on?

[psamathe]

Hi, I have a question about a change in the latest Kopernicus. I can see a part module got renamed from KopernicusSolarPanel to KopernicusSolarPanels.

This causes warnings on my saved craft (from 1.7.3) in the VAB, but loading and resaving seems to put in the new module.

Also my existing craft in game seem to need their solar panels re-deployed.

Other than the two things above is there anything else I should be worrying about?

[FS3D]

On 2/8/2020 at 12:45 AM, Galileo said:

Sure, but what does that have to do with it being “left hanging”? What is your argument here?

I think his argument is that he got something for free, but it doesn't work with the latest version, and rather than realise that nobody is getting paid to develop Kopernicus and make it work with the latest quite-extensively-changed version of KSP, he'd rather go on about how those of you who have worked on Kopernicus are deliberately leaving everyone "hanging" (you know, as opposed to what is happening in reality).

Quote

Basically, I think your expectations are not aligned with the reality here. Reality being, there aren’t droves of devs lined up to help develop Kopernicus. Would it be nice? Sure, but it’s not reality. So what’s the point of screaming that into the void?

It's a little like a Karen walking into a coffee shop, complaining that the free donuts she was given at the drive-thru aren't fresh from 5 minutes ago or aren't made with Strawberry jam.

Quote

Kopernicus does not bring all the devs to the yard. Cuz they’re like “your code is too hard”. Damn right, our code is too hard. I could teach you, but you would probably decide to not help because you realize you like playing more than you like writing code...

Right?

I'm amazed that people think it's acceptable to complain that the free content they are getting from people who do not get paid a red cent for any of this work, have to wait while those who do the work have to somehow fit it in with their full time studies or employment.

Not everyone has a trust fund and time to waste.

[Sigma88]

8 hours ago, psamathe said:

Hi, I have a question about a change in the latest Kopernicus. I can see a part module got renamed from KopernicusSolarPanel to KopernicusSolarPanels.

This causes warnings on my saved craft (from 1.7.3) in the VAB, but loading and resaving seems to put in the new module.

Also my existing craft in game seem to need their solar panels re-deployed.

Other than the two things above is there anything else I should be worrying about?

I tested this before doing the change and it didn't seem to create any issues for me.

I forgot to test the VAB to be honest, so I didn't know they would throw an error there, but I am happy to hear it gets fixed if you save the crafts.

Having to re-deploy some of the solar panels was expected. other than that there shouldn't be any bad issues and actually this new method of doing stuff should cause a lot less issues when mixed with other mods

[X-25]

I just installed the latest version of Kopernicus for KSP 1.9, but I can't get passed the menu. Can someone please give me a solution for this?

 

I Kopernicus compatible with KSP 1.9?

Edited February 10, 2020 by X-25

[BlueZed]

I know you cannot easily fix my issue (without detailed specs) but I was wondering if anyone might have an idea of what I could try. After replacing the files for the updated Kopernicus & ModuleManager  in the appropriate game data folders I see:

1. the space complex is covered by a large dark patch

2. the terminator on Kerbal is a wide dark band

3. when viewing a craft in orbit I can see multiple Kerbols (suns) and at one angle the screen fills with an array of circular lens flares.

i am using 1.8.1 and can only remove these glitches by removing all mods except KEngineer, Alarm Clock & Chatterer.  

any clues would be appreciated. Thank you. 

[Alvi]

Hey Devs, just wanted to say thanks again for Kopernicus 1.8.1. You have made my Mir Station a much more playable space

[ArXen42]

10 hours ago, X-25 said:

I just installed the latest version of Kopernicus for KSP 1.9, but I can't get passed the menu. Can someone please give me a solution for this?

 

I Kopernicus compatible with KSP 1.9?

Wait, 1.9 is out?

I have reinstalled game like a few days ago and steam installed 1.8.1... (can't check if there are additional options in steam right now).

And not a single mod in CKAN with 1.9 compatibility.

[ArXen42]

9 hours ago, BlueZed said:

I know you cannot easily fix my issue (without detailed specs) but I was wondering if anyone might have an idea of what I could try. After replacing the files for the updated Kopernicus & ModuleManager  in the appropriate game data folders I see:

1. the space complex is covered by a large dark patch

2. the terminator on Kerbal is a wide dark band

3. when viewing a craft in orbit I can see multiple Kerbols (suns) and at one angle the screen fills with an array of circular lens flares.

i am using 1.8.1 and can only remove these glitches by removing all mods except KEngineer, Alarm Clock & Chatterer.  

any clues would be appreciated. Thank you. 

I'd do the following steps:

1. Backup the whole KSP directory.
2. Make a list of all mods you are using (it seems you are installing them by hand, but if not, CKAN has ability to export modlist/modpack).
3. Install fresh clean KSP 1.8.1.
4. Using CKAN, install Kopernicus, check if it works (it certainly should).
5. Start adding mods from the list through CKAN, check if it works after every few mods, especially ones that are not declared to be compatible with KSP 1.8.1 (however I have a few of them, works fine). Better install your preferred planet pack first (JNSQ has 1.8.1 compatibility, RSS works too, apparently, probably a lof of other packs will work too).
6. If some mods are not present in CKAN, add them when finished with others.

 

I heavily recommend using CKAN because it's pretty good with managing mods dependencies and preventing problems. At this point it is pretty much standard. Package managers are great invention, you can even install CKAN from another, system-wide package manager (chocolatey on Windows, apt-get/pacman/etc on Linux) 

[BlueZed]

5 minutes ago, ArXen42 said:

I'd do the following steps:
 

Thank you very much for the detailed response. Very much appreciated. 

[Snark]

11 hours ago, X-25 said:

I just installed the latest version of Kopernicus for KSP 1.9, but I can't get passed the menu. Can someone please give me a solution for this?

I Kopernicus compatible with KSP 1.9?

Not sure what you're looking at, but KSP 1.9 hasn't actually been released yet.  The current version of KSP is 1.8.1.

1 hour ago, ArXen42 said:

Wait, 1.9 is out?

No, it is not.

[zeilden]

how do i open the kopernicus like planet maker thingy or editor (basically where you use kopernicus to make planets)

[Sigma88]

 

21 minutes ago, zeilden said:

how do i open the kopernicus like planet maker thingy or editor (basically where you use kopernicus to make planets)

You need to install kittopoatech and then I think the hotkey is alt+p or ctrl+p

Edited February 10, 2020 by Sigma88

[Galileo]

14 minutes ago, Sigma88 said:

kittopoatech

Is that new?