A "KSP Loading..." Preview: 24-77 "Twitch" Liquid Fuel Engine Revamp

[Superfluous J]

27 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I think everything should have a primary color/texture and secondary accent color selector, rather than these prebaked variants we have now. It's getting very awkward meshing up "orange" variants, because some stuff just is white with an orange stripe, while other stuff is outright gray. It's also really difficult to get black/white stuff looking like it belongs, because sometimes "black and white" means "white"...

Yeah in theory, you'd set your entire craft to be "Black and white" and all together the tanks would look good and match.

In practice though it looks worse than if you just picked randomly for what each tank was.

[T1mo98]

14 hours ago, Poodmund said:

So we cater for the lowest common denominator now? That's a good design ethos. Thumbs up.

Not the lowest common denominator, but the majority of the playerbase. Why would you sacrifice a good design because a couple people are upset about the scientific accuracy of it? Yes, you could drastically reduce the thrust, but that would change the entire balance and role the Twitch used to play.

There are things that KSP just doesn't need to teach, and rocket plumbing is one of them. Otherwise why is everyone fine with engines being able to relight infinitely many times? There are sacrifices that need to be made in scientific accuracy in order to benefit design and balance. 

14 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Excuse =/= Reason

Possibly, but certainly not the only objective.  Adding such attention to detail can only improve the end product.  As a basic example, have you ever come across a door in a game that is obviously out of scale, or has the knob at the wrong height?  "Does it really matter?"  The door still opens for your character. but wouldn't the proper attention to detail create a better piece of art?  (Oh no.  I just called video games art.)  This sort of attention to detail not only limits the immersion breakage of an oddly huge door, but it shows a level of professionalism and an amount of care that is put into this regular sized door which is now before your character.

Attention to detail is great, but not when it comes at the cost of balance. There are two options here:

1. Add a turbopump to the design. I'm not a designer, but I don't think it would work in such a small engine, correct me if I'm wrong.
2. Reduce the thrust, thereby pushing the Twitch out of it's intended role and breaking the balance.

I'd also say it's not a matter of 'The door is too big', but more 'the grain in the wood is inconsistent with the type of door it would have been in real-life' It's such a small, insignificant detail that in the end doesn't matter to the enjoyment of the vast majority of people playing. In that case it is better to make a slight compromise in realism in order to benefit design and balance.

 

But that's just coming from someone who has no clue how to design an engine or a game, so what do I know?

[passinglurker]

49 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

1. Add a turbopump to the design. I'm not a designer, but I don't think it would work in such a small engine, correct me if I'm wrong

The Ukrainian hypergolic wizards would probably want a word with you they stage combustion basically everything even the little vernier thrusters.

Also the micro launch market is presently awash with gas generator cycle engines a 9th the size of Merlin or smaller (fun fact in porkjets design document the spark and twitch take their cues from the Merlin engine)

49 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

2. Reduce the thrust, thereby pushing the Twitch out of it's intended role and breaking the balance.

Rebalancing and adding more parts to flesh out the use cases would certainly be an option squad is already basically hard breaking things changing the angle of thrust. In which case the engine you see here would play the role of a larger pressure fed like the spider/ant engine and also get a stack mount variant and then squad can introduce a slightly larger engine that looks like a radial version of their spark engine and hey if they design it right maybe that odd choice of mounting the turbo separately from the thrust chamber would actually start to make a modicum of sense because it would suggest that the engine was radial first and adapted to stack use later.

 

EDIT: I should add that kerbal has a tendency to spark curiosity and learning in people so while it may be the case that a user might not know a thing about engines now they may want to in the future, and if kerbal made even a small nod to accuracy and consistency well then that would be all the better when the user realizes it.

Edited January 31, 2019 by passinglurker

[DMagic]

18 hours ago, passinglurker said:

Cause I don't see how a smaller engine with no turbo machinery is supposed to be complimentary and on par with the spark engine.

These two parts are supposed to be different versions of the same thing right? That's what I always thought. Looking at the old versions they definitely look like basically the same thing:

Same color and basic shape, same fuzzy white text, similar details on the body of the engine, the engine bell looks similar, the tubing the looks the same.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case anymore:

They both have the same orange color (or similar, I can't tell if they are actually the same), but that's about it. The engine bells don't look at all alike, the Spark has lots of other engine details while the Twitch has none, and the Twitch has those weird square panels that show up everywhere.

 

I can see them having different stats. The Twitch could reasonably be assumed to be used in pairs or groups, and is smaller, so lower thrust makes sense. But it's a shame that the two paired engines couldn't be designed to show that they share the same heritage.

Edited January 31, 2019 by DMagic

[woeller]

Oh hey look! A Twitch Engine Model from an not well known artist called @Nertea or so...

I bet it has proper gimbeling... oh... and a turbopump... no weir paneling?! Don't be mean with me, but this it what I expect from an part overhaul.

[Nertea]

10 minutes ago, woeller said:

Oh hey look! A Twitch Engine Model from an not well known artist called @Nertea or so...

I bet it has proper gimbeling... oh... and a turbopump... no weir paneling?! Don't be mean with me, but this it what I expect from an part overhaul.

 

I appreciate your compliments, but as I mentioned earlier, let's not do this please. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Nertea

[passinglurker]

2 hours ago, DMagic said:

These two parts are supposed to be different versions of the same thing right? That's what I always thought. Looking at the old versions they definitely look like basically the same thing:

Exactly that's how their original author described them for the kspx mod, and I would love nothing more than for squad to take one or both of these back in order to iterate on, improve, and perfect the design. I simply offered an alternative as a compromise because everyone here knows how allergic squad is to revisiting revamps despite how naked their corner cutting can be at times...

Seriously if they ever looked like they gave it their all on a part it wouldn't be so easy to criticize... 

Instead since they seem intent on giving the minimum effort as usual it might be prudent to show parts at a mute conceptual stage so community feed back can be given before to many man hours are spent and the sunk costs fallacy takes hold...

[Tyko]

2 hours ago, DMagic said:

Same color and basic shape, same fuzzy white text, similar details on the body of the engine, the engine bell looks similar, the tubing the looks the same.

I always thought of them as the same core but optimized differently. Maybe the Spark was a Block 2 or something like that. The bell geometry is different and it has 25% more power.

I still have serious concerns about this part - for example, @RoverDude said it gimbals below the combustion chamber, but on the current model everything from the bottom of the nozzle to the top of the can is solid. there's no gap anywhere that would allow the nozzle to move independent of the rest of the engine.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Tyko

[MaverickSawyer]

23 minutes ago, Tyko said:

I always thought of them as the same core but optimized differently. Maybe the Spark was a Block 2 or something like that. The bell geometry is different and it has 25% more power.

I still have serious concerns about this part - for example, @RoverDude said it gimbals below the combustion chamber, but on the current model everything from the bottom of the nozzle to the top of the can is solid. there's no gap anywhere that would allow the nozzle to move independent of the rest of the engine.

That grey gap is actually a ball joint, if you look closely. That's the gimbal point

[Tyko]

3 minutes ago, MaverickSawyer said:

That grey gap is actually a ball joint, if you look closely. That's the gimbal point

The grey gap 3/4 of the way up? Got it...thanks for pointing that out  

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, passinglurker said:

Seriously if they ever looked like they gave it their all on a part it wouldn't be so easy to criticize...

Think about the recently redone lander can. Not only did they listen to feedback and act on it, they even made a video about how they listened to the feedback and acted on it. I think your criticism as to their attitude is unfair.

[passinglurker]

21 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Think about the recently redone lander can. Not only did they listen to feedback and act on it, they even made a video about how they listened to the feedback and acted on it. I think your criticism as to their attitude is unfair.

After we beat down the gate with the force of public opinion. They don't fix anything because they screwed up but rather only because the reception was cold enough.

51 minutes ago, MaverickSawyer said:

That grey gap is actually a ball joint, if you look closely. That's the gimbal point

Wait... How can we have a ball joint without a socket to wrap around and hold it? It'll just fall out it's just hanging by the flexible fuel lines I can only imagine are running through the ball...

Ok @nestor massive technical oversights like this are why you need to run rover's designs past the Community or QA team before be sinks time into them...

Edited January 31, 2019 by passinglurker

[Poodmund]

3 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

Ok @nestor massive technical oversights like this are why you need to run rover's designs past the Community or QA team before be sinks time into them...

They have a community based QA team referred to as their 'Focus Group'. It would be silly to presume otherwise that initial design concepts get run past them for feedback before models get fleshed out and nailed down for the final design.

[Nebbie]

I think it's still within reason to see the Spark and Twitch as related with the new models, I would just really like it if the stats reflected this, as currently the Spark absolutely crushes the Twitch. I think the Twitch should be slightly worse, but not this much worse, and I hope the devs take this opportunity of changing the Twitch to make its stats a bit closer.

[passinglurker]

1 hour ago, Nebbie said:

I think it's still within reason to see the Spark and Twitch as related with the new models

Kinda a moot point now that the twitch has been revealed to fall apart under gravity with how it's been designed...

[Deddly]

16 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

Kinda a moot point now that the twitch has been revealed to fall apart under gravity with how it's been designed...

Have you seen the internal structure? 

[MaverickSawyer]

I'm with Deddly on this one. You're overreacting. Besides, there are worse offenders in terms of unrealistic parts...

*glares at 2.5m reaction wheel package...*

[T1mo98]

6 hours ago, woeller said:

Oh hey look! A Twitch Engine Model from an not well known artist called @Nertea or so...

I bet it has proper gimbeling... oh... and a turbopump... no weir paneling?! Don't be mean with me, but this it what I expect from an part overhaul.

Not trying to diminish Nertea's work in any way, but this engine doesn't fit in with the other redesigns we've seen. Squad has made a decision with the direction they want the parts to take, simply saying 'This model is more realistic', does not qualify that it is actually better.

[Phreakish]

2 hours ago, passinglurker said:

Wait... How can we have a ball joint without a socket to wrap around and hold it? It'll just fall out it's just hanging by the flexible fuel lines I can only imagine are running through the ball...

It's entirely possible to build a swivel ball joint within the twitch as shown that won't fall apart due to gravity. 

 

 

Also, the hate-fest seems to only be coming from those with very high expectations. This revamp looks great, FAR better than the original engine. I don't care if there's no turbo pump, I much prefer the thought of what's shown here because it's far less bulky than versions offered in the aftermarket*. 

*the aftermarket parts are great, but they're working from a different set of constraints. Hate the new twitch? Then go install the mod that's the basis for your indignation at Squad's work.

[T1mo98]

33 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

Kinda a moot point now that the twitch has been revealed to fall apart under gravity with how it's been designed...

The top part is held in place by the bolts we see, the bottom part is attached to the pistons. How exactly would it fall apart under gravity?

[Phreakish]

1 minute ago, T1mo98 said:

Not trying to diminish Nertea's work in any way, but this engine doesn't fit in with the other redesigns we've seen. Squad has made a decision with the direction they want the parts to take, simply saying 'This model is more realistic', does not qualify that it is actually better.

And as Nertea said, this isn't the place to discuss such things anyway. What they offer is a different vision and intent than Squads, obviously. If aftermarket versions of the engine are what players want, they already have them

Just now, T1mo98 said:

The top part is held in place by the bolts we see, the bottom part is attached to the pistons. How exactly would it fall apart under gravity?

It wouldn't. The assumption is that there's only one way to build a ball swivel. 

Spoiler

There's not. 

 

[Snark]

Folks.  Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for discussing the upcoming update of the Twitch engine in 1.7.

I know that lots of folks like Nertea's parts-- and with good reason, he makes great stuff!    And if there had just been a casual mention or two, that would be no big deal.  But this just keeps going on, and we get it, guys, and it's now derailing the thread and taking it off topic.

Nertea has his own thread for discussing his stuff, and this is not the place-- as he himself has graciously pointed out now, twice.

So:  If you have opinions about this re-work, by all means post your critique.  "I like it because <reasons>", or "I don't like it because <reasons>", all okay.  But please, address the part on its own merits and not just by comparing to other stuff elsewhere.

So... keep it on-topic, please?  Thanks.

[MaverickSawyer]

Personally, I think that it's more than adequate as they've shown it. I can see no major issues worth a redesign, and it's a significant improvement over the previous iteration that we've had for how long now?

A gentle reminder for those of you who don't like it, that's fair. No one is forcing you to use it. And, no one is saying you can't go and edit the config files to make it more to your tastes.

Edited January 31, 2019 by MaverickSawyer

[panzer1b]

I actually like it.  Its different enough to be unique among engines (and is way more unique then the old one), but still gives a feel of the older model texture wise.

Despite my many past complaints, many of which are still valid, like the garbage quality of the textures for the 2.5m fuel tanks, the absolutely useless 1-3 pod (which has wrong size node and utterly breaks the looks of most ships so i dont touch it), and many other parts that came out sub-par like some of the probe cores, specifically hex for me has been relegated to only clipped inside something useage now unlike the old one.  There are still things the devs can do to improve, but im quite happy with most of what came out of the last update, the only thing i miss from the old engines that got revamped was the 909's gold foil shroud which looked much better imo then new shorud option, but the engine bell and the pump assembly looks way better on the new one.  The poodle i never cared for (purely used as a engine to push a rockit somewhere so i rarely look at it), although i do like the new one, and the 48-7s is a flat upgrade over the old one in every way that matters (shielded looks good, and the other bare/strutted choice of version are also good and open up more options with it).

One final thing i really like abotu the engine is that is offers a "dark" theme with it (in this case grey+orange style).  Not that black/white is a bad color or anything, but it just gets super damn old, especially since almost every rockit ends up looking like it came out of a cleanroom.  Its fine to allow that style, but im really enjoying the fact that we now have some ability to make darker themed vessels.  Now if only we could get wings in grey or even black, then i could make bloody stealth fighters look like stealth fighters (noone would paint a "stealth" vessel white :( ).

[Nebbie]

I would like to note that I really like the redesign, I just hope they redo stats while they're dealing with looks, cause with the current stats, I would never even consider the Twitch, which is a shame when it looks that good.