ceaars

Launch clips = 1st stage. The math. So simple.

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Make the goddamn launch clips automatically attach to the first ******* engine, so they are in the same stage.  The fact this isn't a done thing by this point leads me to believe that I've stumbled into some sort of ongoing argument where the camp that thinks your rockets should fail for just spectacularly stupid reasons has been drowned out by the camp that thinks that the auto-stager doesn't even need to be a tiny bit, just a hair slightly smarter than a trisomy 35 toad (which isn't even a *thing*).  I just wanted to say something.  Just get my disgust out there.  Because god DAMN.  I know it won't get fixed.  I'm sure it's not even considered a bug.  I know I'm still going to have to hack my save file to occasionally make my Kerbals not so incomprehensibly dumb they actually break immersion.  But damn guys.  Just... daaaaaamn.

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It's not a bug.   At all. 

If  you are building a rocket with different staged engines, the editor might get it wrong with which engine is the "first" engine.   I've had designs where the Main engine didn't kick on till after the boosters were partially through their burn. 

It would cause issues for those designing things that don't actually have engines, they just need the clamps for support. 

Keeping the clamps as an individual stage that might need re-assigned is the simplest and least error prone way to design it.  It's far better to quickly adjust something manually, than have to figure out where the editor automatically stuck something.

Why would mistaged launch clamps cause you to edit the save file?

In the parlance of our community "Check yo' stagin'!". 

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Why edit the save file? Press Esc and revert to launch or the VAB.

Besides, if you want a realistic Shuttle-style launch, you light the LFO engines at half throttle, ramp them up to full, then fire the next stage which lights the SRBs and releases the clamps simultaneously.

7 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

"Check yo' stagin'!". 

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Edited by StrandedonEarth

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41 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

It's not a bug.   At all. 

If  you are building a rocket with different staged engines, the editor might get it wrong with which engine is the "first" engine.   I've had designs where the Main engine didn't kick on till after the boosters were partially through their burn. 

I think he means the clamps should be staged by default to trigger the first time you hit the space bar, not necessarily along with any particular engine.  Which I can 100% get behind.

 

34 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Besides, if you want a realistic Shuttle-style launch, you light the LFO engines at half throttle, ramp them up to full, then fire the next stage which lights the SRBs and releases the clamps simultaneously.

Sure, but if we're just talking about the default setting, having the clamps deploy on the first stage is gonna be right more often than wrong. Of course you'd still want to be able to move it around from stage to stage like any other action.

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12 minutes ago, Aegolius13 said:

I think he means the clamps should be staged by default to trigger the first time you hit the space bar, not necessarily along with any particular engine.  Which I can 100% get behind.

This brings up an interesting thought, in 3 parts:

  1. What would happen if they were added to the "stage" action group?
  2. What if they were there by default?
  3. Can this be done with a Module Manager config?

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Yep.  Correct.  Never said it was a bug.  Not in the post.  Not in the topic heading.

Here's an experiment, because that's how science actually works.

Make a simple rocket.  I'll let you decide what simple is... just do it.  Seriously.  Make it.  Make it simple.  Simple.  Siiiiiiiimple.  It's hard.  I know.  Less parts.  Try not to eat the smurfs.  You can do it.  I have faith.  Sim.  Pol.

Now launch it.

Cool.

Add a stage.  Just for fun.  I know you can.

It probably still works.  Sure you can put some pedantic "check yo' staging" squirrel in your sig.  But you don't have to.  With the simple stuff (which is not what 'check yo' staging' squirrel is about) it's pretty amazing how often the game actually gets it right.

Add another stage.

I'll wait.

 

 

 

 

Probably still worked.

It's actually kind of cool.  You can add stages.  And ... wait for it, I know this is an amazing thing that'll just blow your mind.  It's quite something...

 

I'll wait...

 

Let you marvel... (unless you don't get 'simple', which might very well be the case).

 

The game typically gets it right.  No input from you.  No check yo' staging squirrel needed.  I'm actually impressed at how often it works.  Very impressed.  I actually typically 'check yo staging' on a regular basis, and I'm pretty surprised how often it actually matches what I intended.  Even when it gets complex.  Way way, waaaaaaay more complex than you'd think would work.  No way I'm launching without a careful check.  Yet it got it right.

 

Now add launch clamps.

 

loveed it up, didn't it?

 

Every.  God.  Damn.  Time.

 

Seriously.  Does it ever NOT love it up?  (And let's be serious here ... you're actually good enough to make the adjustments ... and that's the goddamn point - you HAD to make adjustments!  Didn't you... DIDN'T YOU?!)

 

Did they ever get added in the way you intended (without launch squirrels having to tell you about your moronity so they could shame you into thinking what the game just did *isn't* an idiotic choice?)?

 

Did they?

 

Go ahead.  Try it again.

 

Add your pod and put a tank an engine on it.

 

Huh.  The game kind of gets the order you intended.

 

Now add another stage.

 

Yep, you should have checked it (loveing squirrel).  But, weirdly, the odds are it worked (and checking it verified it did).

 

 

Now add another one.

 

Huh.

 

Amazing.

 

That also worked.  I didn't have to change a thing.  Sure I checked.  But I didn't have to.

 

Now add the launch clamps.

 

Don't change anything.  Just add them.

 

Didn't work the way you thought, did they?  Now you have to add a launch squirrel meme to shame you into thinking the mistake was all yours (and, let's face it, *technically* it was, but that's not the point).  You *know* there's something insanely simple the game could have done that would have solved the problem, but didn't.  Yet it did ... every ... other ... time.

 

Eh.  You don't really need to use them, right?  It's not like rockets ever tip over on the launch pad and kill all your astronauts and destroy the pad.  Nah.  Never going to happen.  Nope.  So no need to pretty much automatically add something that the game's going to inexplicably get wrong when it got everything else right.

 

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I am 100% behind that. For real, in majority of regular rocket launches, (unless you do something really weird that actually does not need to release the clamps at the very beginning) the launch clamps go first, with first engine, be it srb or not, whatever fires first. It should be there by default (totally changeable like any other stage).

I discovered one thing though. Staging for launch clamps sets itself based on where you put them. if you add it somewhere around 3rd stage tank, it will be around 3rd stage. Which is fine for anything you do, making staging easier to maintain, but I think such behavior should be excluded for launch clamps. Because now we kinda have to add them ON the first stage for it to work without changing anything. Well I usually add another one much higher for better stability and that is the one that gets messed up. The amount of times when my rocket went bananas because the clamp decided it wants to release when im supposedly halfway into space..

I highlighted few words, maybe that would help.

Edited by The Aziz

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It’s not always so cut and dried. Too often I’ve had no engines at all in the launch clamp stage. Or not not enough, if the core doesn’t light when the surrounding boosters do. The end result is falling on the pad going boom 

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13 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I am 100% behind that. For real, in majority of regular rocket launches, (unless you do something really weird that actually does not need to release the clamps at the very beginning) the launch clamps go first, with first engine, be it srb or not, whatever fires first. It should be there by default (totally changeable like any other stage).

Hmmm.  Actually I thought that for most real life rocket launches, engines are started, then the computer checks that they are producing the appropriate amount of force before releasing the launch clamps.  If the engines aren't producing the required thrust, or anything seems wrong, then the computer shuts them down, and you get an abort at T-1 or so.  SRBs are the notable exception, since they can't be shut down.  They are ignited at the same time as the launch clamps are released.

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17 hours ago, ceaars said:

Never said it was a bug.  Not in the post.  Not in the topic heading.

You're right, you didn't.  My apologies, I thought I had read that in the OP.

But the behavior has been like that since the clamps were first introduced.  Not only is the behavior completely usable and easy to follow, but changing it now would confuse so many people that have been playing the game for so long, it's not worth changing it, it would just confuse way more people than it would help. 

Now, yes, when I'm building complicated asparagus style launchers, I can end up with launch clamps all over the place in the staging; But there is a very easy fix for this.

When you place your first pair or set of clamps, adjust the staging as necessary.  Then Alt-click that set of clamps, and place the next set to wherever you want.  The staging preferences carry over to the new set of clamps.   Keep doing this, and you only have to make one tiny change at the beginning, instead of a whole bunch at the end.  This technique is also really useful on setting up sepatrons for getting boosters clear of the vehicle.   Just make one set, and alt-click the rest, and all your staging problems are magically fixed. 

The bottom line is, no matter which behavior the clamps follow, somebody is not going to like it.  Changing it now will just add confusion. 

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15 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

You're right, you didn't.  My apologies, I thought I had read that in the OP.

But the behavior has been like that since the clamps were first introduced.  Not only is the behavior completely usable and easy to follow, but changing it now would confuse so many people that have been playing the game for so long, it's not worth changing it, it would just confuse way more people than it would help. 

Now, yes, when I'm building complicated asparagus style launchers, I can end up with launch clamps all over the place in the staging; But there is a very easy fix for this.

When you place your first pair or set of clamps, adjust the staging as necessary.  Then Alt-click that set of clamps, and place the next set to wherever you want.  The staging preferences carry over to the new set of clamps.   Keep doing this, and you only have to make one tiny change at the beginning, instead of a whole bunch at the end.  This technique is also really useful on setting up sepatrons for getting boosters clear of the vehicle.   Just make one set, and alt-click the rest, and all your staging problems are magically fixed. 

The bottom line is, no matter which behavior the clamps follow, somebody is not going to like it.  Changing it now will just add confusion. 

 

Huh.  I didn't know that.  So alt-clicking the clamps to a stage where something else is ... ah ... staged with "fix" them to that stage no matter what (well, beyond me just moving them somewhere else)?  I'm going to have to give that a try... if it works, that'd be very helpful (and would also help with their tendency to seemingly randomly move around as you tweak the rocket - something that almost nothing else in the staging seems to have a problem with).  Thank you!

15 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I am 100% behind that. For real, in majority of regular rocket launches, (unless you do something really weird that actually does not need to release the clamps at the very beginning) the launch clamps go first, with first engine, be it srb or not, whatever fires first. It should be there by default (totally changeable like any other stage).

I discovered one thing though. Staging for launch clamps sets itself based on where you put them. if you add it somewhere around 3rd stage tank, it will be around 3rd stage. Which is fine for anything you do, making staging easier to maintain, but I think such behavior should be excluded for launch clamps. Because now we kinda have to add them ON the first stage for it to work without changing anything. Well I usually add another one much higher for better stability and that is the one that gets messed up. The amount of times when my rocket went bananas because the clamp decided it wants to release when im supposedly halfway into space..

I highlighted few words, maybe that would help.

Huh ... I wonder if that explains their seemingly magical ability to move around in the staging where nothing else does.  Although it seems some people might see me as crazy, I swear I *always* move them to the correct location in the staging (and in this case that set me off, I *know* I did), and then I might tweak something totally unrelated (or at least I think I did) and the clamps just mysteriously move from where I put them (in the staging) to something that will destroy the rocket, cost me 360,000 funds, kill five kerbonauts, and cut my reputation in half.  Gargamel suggested something that might actually "lock" them in place for all time and get rid of that "random movement" behavior (at least I hope it will) ... but what you posted gives me some insight into why exactly they seem to have such weirdly random behavior.

Now, granted, I still agree with you: it would be better if their default was just to put themselves in the "lowest" stage that had some engine getting activated.  I don't agree that that would confuse people (the only confusion I see is all of those people used to having to fiddle with them staring in confused amazement at their staging, trying to figure out why exactly the clamps actually showed up in the right place; I think they're survive the shock), but that's just me.

Edited by ceaars
Saw grammar error.

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I'm one of those weirdos who lights the engines, and then releases the clamps.  I can see your reasoning, but this is a creative game about building things.  There's to much chance that a player may not want to release the clamps on the first staging.

Not even I'm going to complain about Squad not doing this one.

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4 hours ago, ceaars said:

Gargamel suggested something that might actually "lock" them in place for all time and get rid of that "random movement" behavior (at least I hope it will) ... but what you posted gives me some insight into why exactly they seem to have such weirdly random behavior.

They don't lock into place, but after you adjust the first set, any further clones will be placed on the same stage as the first.   Since clamps are usually the very last thing you add to your craft, this makes placing the first set, adjusting them as needed, and then cloning them, very simple. 

if you then remove a couple boosters, or rework a stage, there is a chance they might shift around, but most likely the entire stage will have shifted around with them.  So you'll find an entire stage of stuff in the wrong spot.  

Trying to design the game so it anticipates the builder's intent is a lost cause.  Just look at the weirdness all the players come up with.  There's no planning for lunacy. 

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I don't really see why we are arguing with this.  The OP may have been rude in his opening post, but he has a valid point.  In the overwhelming majority of cases, the launch clamps go on the first stage with the engines.  Sure, I've created a few designs with engines not aligned with centre and found that igniting them before releasing the clamps will allow them to stabilize under SAS before launching and some cinematic "masterpieces" require that clamped ignition for authenticity, but in those cases I could just move the staging.  99% of my designs and most of the designs I've seen elsewhere have the clamps on the first stage with the engines.

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On 2/1/2019 at 10:36 PM, 5thHorseman said:

This brings up an interesting thought, in 3 parts:

  1. What would happen if they were added to the "stage" action group?
  2. What if they were there by default?
  3. Can this be done with a Module Manager config?

And I want that config

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On 2/3/2019 at 12:22 AM, Gargamel said:

They don't lock into place, but after you adjust the first set, any further clones will be placed on the same stage as the first.   Since clamps are usually the very last thing you add to your craft, this makes placing the first set, adjusting them as needed, and then cloning them, very simple. 

if you then remove a couple boosters, or rework a stage, there is a chance they might shift around, but most likely the entire stage will have shifted around with them.  So you'll find an entire stage of stuff in the wrong spot.  

Trying to design the game so it anticipates the builder's intent is a lost cause.  Just look at the weirdness all the players come up with.  There's no planning for lunacy. 

No, no no no.  You need not worry.  I got what you meant.  Whatever they're attached to stays what they're attached to no matter how much tomfoolery I add.

 

...er, well maybe I do.  Okay.

 

I assume this means what I attached them to, they'll stay attached to, no matter what.  If I later put whole stages below where I put them, that's my own dang fault (forgive my language).  If I actually screw around with the stage they're on, they'll stay attached to that stage.  If I mess with something above them, they'll stay where they are.

Sure my dream would be if their initial spot were to be automatically attached to whatever (at the time of placing) was the first engine to fire.  But I've already learned to check for that (as you've so aptly demonstrated, you really can't convince people a way different from what they're used to is a better way, no matter how many probes get crashed into the Martian surface, because "it'll always confuse people," since, to play devil's advocate there's *always* some jackass who thinks they've got a better way, and trust me on this ... you're not wrong).  What you addressed was the real culprit - why after I've double checked what they're attached to, they somehow drift off of where I put them (it's maddening enough for them to not start where I want them ... worse yet is once I've repositioned them they just don't appear to "stick" to where I put them.  It was the latter that caused the problem).

 

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On 2/3/2019 at 4:47 AM, klgraham1013 said:

I'm one of those weirdos who lights the engines, and then releases the clamps.

Oh so much of the precious Delta-vee wasteeeed

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On 2/2/2019 at 10:47 PM, klgraham1013 said:

(...) There's to much chance that a player may not want to release the clamps on the first staging. (...)

No. There is a chance, you’re right about that. But too much chance? I don’t have numbers at hand, and I don’t know how to get them, but I would be very surprised if at more than 10% of the launches the clamps would not go with the first staging event. And definitely, without a smidgen of doubt, more than 50%, or the majority of launches would release the clamps at the first occasion.

Surely that would “get it wrong” for a minority of the players. But it would get it right for the vast majority.

Mind you, I’m one of those “light engines, check if all is fine” (there’s mods to ensure it isn’t always) and then release kind of people. But I still think that it makes sense to default the clamps to always the first stage. It wouldn’t matter for me—right now the game gets it wrong regardless—but it would at least be right for most players.

 

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One group of players who would very, very much not like this is anybody running with Real Fuels. It takes a few seconds for real liquid-fuel engines to spool up to maximum thrust, and only then do you release the clamps.

I don't want my actual, full-scale Saturn V replica falling to the pad and then tipping over in the 5+ seconds it takes for those F-1 engines to spool up.

While perhaps the editor might be made smart enough to, by default, always add clamps to the first stage, there's no reason why they should be hard-locked to the first stage. There are several valid reasons to not have clamps on the first stage, and there needs to be the option of not having them there.

EDIT: Also, anybody running with any sort of parts failure mod that can trigger on engine ignition. If engine 3 fails to start... much safer to still be on the clamps and just abort the launch sequence.

Edited by Starman4308

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No - no hard-locked, but on the first stage by default. There is a difference. See, if you're one of these "engines first, clamps second" people, if you put them at the very bottom of the craft, you have to move their release stage higher up anyway. There is a group of people who(mstd've) have engine failure and/or not instant ignition mods, but there are also people - like, much more of them - who just hit space to go to space.

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On 2/2/2019 at 10:47 PM, klgraham1013 said:

I'm one of those weirdos who lights the engines, and then releases the clamps.

 

Same.  I most definitely wouldnt want them to always be in stage 1.  

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On 2/1/2019 at 8:38 PM, Gargamel said:

 

If  you are building a rocket with different staged engines, the editor might get it wrong with which engine is the "first" engine.  

lol, if by might get it wrong, you mean ALWAYS gets it wrong.

i dont know how many times i have engines in a subbassembly that i slapped into a fairing and called it a day, only to find that ksp thought the payloads engins needed to fire before the danged main core.

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