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[1.8.x] UnKerballed Start v1.1.0 (updated Oct 27, 2019)


SpinkAkron
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5 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

It's already supported. There is a InterstellarExtended.cfg in the Mod Support folder.  Is it not working?

Silly me, I looked over it, looking for KSP Interstellar, lol. I will investigate if there are any potential problems

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7 minutes ago, Tyko said:

Just downloaded and reviewed. This looks really cool and i may try for my next playthrough. I saw a couple of things that confused me. Most notably that you stuck with the stock idea that the different height 1.25m fuel tanks each are on their own tech nodes. This always struck me as odd because it makes for really annoying early rockets with stacks of smaller tanks and there's not really a tech reason for it.

I guess I can just mod the tree myself, but before I did I was hoping to understand why you made that choice?

Thx :) 

My reasoning is that volume/pressure is the limiting factor in tank size rather than simply diameter. Each tier gives an expansion to the volume of tanks you can build, regardless of the part size. The nodes that have two inputs give a double bonus.

This generally increases the number of parts you need which is why I swapped the upgrade costs for VAB/Launchpad

Edited by SpinkAkron
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@SpinkAkron I have to say, impressed with how you managed to integrate the KSPIE extended CTT technodes in the Unkerballed Tech nodes. My main concern would be that due to some change you made in the tech tree, some parts have become significantly harder to unlock. An example of this would be the Parts in the Fusion Rocketry tech node. In the original CTT techtree it only required High Efficient nuclear propulsion, in the Unkerballed tech tree, it requires both High Efficient nuclear and Fusion Power which effectively tripped the tech cost for unlocking the Magneto Inertial Fusion Engine, an early kind of fusion engine. Notice that from a realism point of view, because fusion propulsion requires less power conversions, its actually easier to achieve fusion propulsion then that we achieve electric power from fusion power, which is inherently harder to control. My advice would to restore CTT original tech dependency meaning Advanced  Fusion power gets unlocked by both Fusion Propulsion and Fusion Power.

Edited by FreeThinker
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32 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

My reasoning is that volume/pressure is the limiting factor in tank size rather than simply diameter. Each tier gives an expansion to the volume of tanks you can build, regardless of the part size. The nodes that have two inputs give a double bonus.

This generally increases the number of parts you need which is why I swapped the upgrade costs for VAB/Launchpad

got it...I think an argument could be made that it's easier to make larger pressurized volumes than it is to tie many small tanks together. Even the V2 had single tanks for LF and Oxidizer

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@SpinkAkron Looking at the Science technodes, I notice the Ultra High Energy Physics technode is also missing, it is supposed to in between the Applied High Energy Physics and Extreme High Energy Physics

Edit: Also you seem to have mixed up  the Scientific Outpost with the Experimental Science technode.

Edited by FreeThinker
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5 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

@SpinkAkron Looking at the Science technodes, I notice the Ultra High Energy Physics technode is also missing, it is supposed to in between the Applied High Energy Physics and Extreme High Energy Physics

Edit: Also you seem to have mixed up  the Scientific Outpost with the Experimental Science technode.

The two missing nodes were being overlapped by the subsequent nodes, so that's why they weren't showing up.  I scooted those back and that is fixed.  I then repositioned the lightspeed node to fit better.   I put scientific outposts there because I was trying to indicate a mining/resource exploitation line and it seemed more appropriate.  CTT has two science lines which I didn't need to I moved and/or combined some of the nodes.

Here's the modified InterstellarExtended.cfg if you want to give it a try.  Stick it in the UnKerballedStart\Mod Support folder.   ---> Dropbox 

Thanks for finding those errors!

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11 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

  I put scientific outposts there because I was trying to indicate a mining/resource exploitation line and it seemed more appropriate. 

I can imagine you did that based on it name but understand that mod designers (including me) put parts (and upgrades) in it assuming it would be followed by other technodes. In the case of KSPIE its even more complicated as it is part of the  beamed power upgrade path. If you have KSPIE installed you will notice the Scientific outpost contains all kinds of part upgraded. the upgrades which are continued in the Long Term Science Tech and following tech nodes. Originally in CTT were an unbroken line, now they aren't anymore

 

11 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

Here's the modified InterstellarExtended.cfg if you want to give it a try.  Stick it in the UnKerballedStart\Mod Support folder.   ---> Dropbox

The missing technodes are indeed showing now. Thanks

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17 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

@SpinkAkron I also notice Exotic Plasma Propulsion is missing, which is supposed to be in between Specialized Plasma Propulsion and Extreme Plasma Propulsion. Forgotte

2 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

I can imagine you did that based on it name but understand that mod designers (including me) put parts (and upgrades) in it assuming it would be followed by other technodes. In the case of KSPIE its even more complicated as it is part of the  beamed power upgrade path. If you have KSPIE installed you will notice the Scientific outpost contains all kinds of part upgraded. the upgrades which are continued in the Long Term Science Tech and following tech nodes. Originally in CTT were an unbroken line, now they aren't anymore

 

The missing technodes are indeed showing now. Thanks

 

The upper end of the tree is only used by a few mods. I can change them to be more in line with KSPIE.  What would you recommend?

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53 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

The upper end of the tree is only used by a few mods. I can change them to be more in line with KSPIE.  What would you recommend?

In general I recommend to following the end part of CTT+ tech tree as close as reasonable.

advanced mining branch: advScienceTech  -> experimentalScience (1000 sci) -> advOffworldMining (1500 sci) -> resourceExploitation

advanced science branch: advScienceTech -> longTermScienceTech (1000 sci) -> scientificOutposts (1500 sci) -> highEnergyScience -> appliedHighEnergyPhysics ->  ultraHighEnergyPhysics -> extremeHighEnergyPhysics

fusion power branch :  remove requirement of fusionRockets on fusionPower and instead make advFusionReactions require both  fusionRockets   and fusionPower

nuclear propulsion: make nuclearPropulsion require advElectrics instead of nuclearPower

 

 

 

 

Edited by FreeThinker
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2 hours ago, Joker58th said:

I would like to suggest that the .625 heat shield be moved to Survivability.  Having both .625 and 1.25 in Enhanced Survivability seems a bit odd to me.  

That is intentional.  At the point where a new technology becomes available, the current max size and all smaller become available at the same time.  You'll see that all thru the tree.

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19 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

That is intentional.  At the point where a new technology becomes available, the current max size and all smaller become available at the same time.  You'll see that all thru the tree.

Hmm..I'm not quite following you.  Here is roughly where I was at in the tree and the contracts I had completed.  These screeny's are a bit after now since I moved the heat shield myself to get past being stuck.  I was ready for the first orbit and return contract and was thinking if I had a parachute, I should probly have a heat shield as well.  Does that make sense?  Jumping from 18 to 45 science to get the .625 heat shield was quite a jump in my case.  I know everyone plays differently.  I lean toward not doing the KSC science hopping if at all possible.  Any how, this is just for reference in case others have similar experience.  By the way, I'm really enjoying this tech tree.  Thanks for making this happen!

Spoiler

CS6oW7W.png

Spoiler

Arhrhpv.png

 

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@SpinkAkron This tech tree makes the game way more challenging at the beginning, I've backed myself into a corner 3 times now, where I didn't have enough science to unlock another node for science parts, and didn't have enough parts to get to new science locations. Loving the challenge.

I'm not really helping myself any by trying to make all my craft as reusable as possible, but I did it with my first orbit capable payload deploying rocket. The final version of the Moho Project. Moho III small satellite and science payload carrier:

2QWs24h.jpg

Fully recoverable, SRB's Side boosters, main core stack, and even the upper stage booster. only the payload in the fairing doesn't come back down and get recovered.

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@SpinkAkron, Thanks for the mod.  Maybe because I haven't played in over a year, but think it is a bit more of a challenge than the original unmanned mod.  I randomly choose a node from the science points I have available after every mission to simulate that Kerbals would never take directions when doing R&D.  Combined with that and my inability to get early planes off the ground, I did get stuck a couple of times and relied on harvesting science points at the space center, but overall think you've balanced it really well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi there -

In my attempt to move from 1.6.1 to 1.7 , in regards to TAC LS, it would seem that some parts that were available in Enh. Survivability are no longer listed, but are now only in Life Support.

I am not sure if this was a new change or just something that needed to be reported?

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24 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Hi there -

In my attempt to move from 1.6.1 to 1.7 , in regards to TAC LS, it would seem that some parts that were available in Enh. Survivability are no longer listed, but are now only in Life Support.

I am not sure if this was a new change or just something that needed to be reported?

If I may, it would seem that perhaps I installed something incorrectly or I didn't remove the module cache files.. or something.. the missing/moved LS parts are back where they should be.  

Thank you and sorry about littering the forums.

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Finally being able to try career game wit it. Hard game, stock comm network without any additional ground stations, only ting to make it easier is to allow quicksaves and reverting flight (mostly due to fear of kraken and unexpected CTDs).

Some suggestions:

  • - instead of swaping prices, set lower part number limit for VAB/SPH to 40
  • - radiators in gizmos node - no use for them that early in the game, can be safely moved to early heat managment node
  • - At least LVT-30 engine (without gimbals) in tier 3 node General rocketry - there is few 1.25m fuel tanks unlocked,  but not much use of them because almost all of engines are much higher in tech tree.
  • - B9PW should be in tier 4 Aviation node instead of Advanced aerodynamics node - people who use them would usualy  not need wings of other kind, but P9PW are too high in tech tree for them
  • - Basic rocketry node contains resource tanks from USI/MKS mod, those should be placed somewhere higher in tech tree,  with their ability to be used for various resources it seems to be too early for them to apear in career game
  • - RA-2 antenna should be slightly earlier in tech tree - in Space Exploration node, to be able to establish better relay network  when it is time to explore Mun/Minimus
  • Probodobodyne QBE - add reaction wheels to it. With very low torque, though. Something like 0.1 or 0.05. IIRC, Probodobodyne OKTO have lowest value of 0.3 torque in stock game. Found it necessary because linear RCS ports are too powerful for small probes, making even kOS steering manager to jerk it a lot, wasting monopropelant and still not being able to point probe in desired direction. Linear RCS port is on right spot in tech tree, though and may be necessary in ascent of unstable rockets, can even be better and lighter solution than wing control surfaces. Because wings are only useful in lower atmosphere.

I have changed my CustomBarnKit.cfg like this:

@CUSTOMBARNKIT:FOR[UnKerballedStart]
{
	@VAB
	{
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
	@SPH
	{
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
}

 

Now, have to restart my career, becasuse I'm stuck (unlocked wrong tech tree node) and currently not in the mood for too much grinding.

Edited by kcs123
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I have created some MM patches for personal usage, posting it here for others if they find it useful in their game too.

CustomBarnKit.cgf (reposting here for completenes) - instead of switching prices, level 1 part limit count is increased from 30 to 40 for VAB/SPH
 

Spoiler
@CUSTOMBARNKIT:FOR[UnKerballedStart]
{
	@VAB
	{		
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
	@SPH
	{
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
}

 

 

B9 Procedural wings - placing it lower in tech tree at tier 4 Aviation mode:

Spoiler
@PART[B9_Aero_Wing_Procedural_TypeA]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = aviation
}

@PART[B9_Aero_Wing_Procedural_TypeB]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = aviation
}

@PART[B9_Aero_Wing_Procedural_TypeC]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = aviation
}

 

Adding reaction wheel module to stock Probodobodyne QBE probe. Have quite low torque, it would not be much of help to steer rocket, you will still need RCS or fins to steer it trough atmosphere, but should be able to slowly steer low mass probes (lower than 1t) and with high electicity usage compared to more advanced probes.
 

Spoiler
@PART[probeCoreCube]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:FOR[UnKerballedStart]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleReactionWheel
		PitchTorque = 0.03
		YawTorque = 0.03
		RollTorque = 0.03
		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 0.09
		}
	}
}

 

Reposition of DMagic SIGINT parts, because those are too powerfull relay antenna, compared to stock antenna parts:
 

Spoiler
@PART[dmSIGINT.Small]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree,DMagicOrbitalScience]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = experimentalScience
	//@TechRequired = miniaturization // apear too soon
}


@PART[dmSIGINT.End]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree,DMagicOrbitalScience]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = longTermScienceTech
	//@TechRequired = advScienceTech // previous tech node	
}

@PART[dmSIGINT]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree,DMagicOrbitalScience]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = longTermScienceTech
	//@TechRequired = advScienceTech // previous
}

@PART[dmscope]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree,DMagicOrbitalScience]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
		@TechRequired = miniaturization  // tier 5
		//@TechRequired = advExploration // previous tier 6
}

 

Reposition of IR Next parts. While IR Next comes with Ctt support, it does not fit well in UKS tech tree. So, I re-positioned those along robotic line of tech tree branches:

Spoiler
@PART[IR_Pivotron_Uncontrolled_v3|IR_Rotatron_Uncontrolled_v3]:NEEDS[MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = actuators
}

@PART[IR_RailExtendatron|IR_RailGantry_Long|IR_RailGantry_Short|IR_RailHinge_Long|IR_RailHinge_Short|IR_RailLiftatron_Long|IR_RailLiftatron_Short|IR_RailPivotron_Long|IR_RailPivotron_Short|IR_RailRotatron_Long|IR_RailRotatron_Short|IR_RailSlidertron_Long|IR_RailSlidertron_Short]:NEEDS[MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = advActuators
}

@PART[IR_LandingFoot|IR_LargeSuspension|IR_SmallSuspension|IR_Foldatron_OffsetMini_v3|IR_Foldatron_Offset_v3|IR_Foldatron_Mini_v3|IR_Foldatron_InsetTwist_v3|IR_Foldatron_InsetEnd_v3|IR_Foldatron_Inset_v3|IR_Foldatron_Hinge_v3|IR_Foldatron_Extended_v3|IR_Foldatron_Basic_v3]:NEEDS[MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = experimentalActuators
}

@PART[IR_Camera|IR_DockingPort|IR_SurfaceSampler]:NEEDS[MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = offworldManufacturing
}

@PART[IR_MagneticGrabber|IR_MechanicalGrasper]:NEEDS[MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = mechatronics
}

// IR_LockConnector is part from InnerLock mod, but it is installed in MagicSmokeIndustries folder along other robotic parts
@PART[IR_LockConnector]:NEEDS[InnerLock,MagicSmokeIndustries,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = nanolathing
}

 

New postitions for Breaking Grounds DLC parts. Just slight movement trough tech tree that have more sense with UKS.
 

Spoiler
// Ground science parts
@PART[DeployedWeatherStn]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion/Serenity,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = advExploration
	//@TechRequired = precisionEngineering
}

@PART[DeployedGoExOb]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion/Serenity,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = spaceExploration
	//@TechRequired = miniaturization
}

@PART[DeployedSeismicSensor]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion/Serenity,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = scienceTech
	//@TechRequired = electronics
}

// robotic parts - OK
@PART[hinge_01|hinge_01_s|hinge_03|hinge_03_s|hinge_04|piston_01|piston_02|piston_03|piston_04|controller1000]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion/Serenity,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = actuators
}

@PART[rotor_01|rotor_02|rotor_03|rotoServo_00|rotoServo_02|rotoServo_03|rotoServo_04]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion/Serenity,CommunityTechTree,UnKerballedStart]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
	@TechRequired = advActuators
}

 

 

Edited by kcs123
Additional MM patches for Breaking Grounds DLC
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Found another compatibility issue. It was feeling from the begining that delta deluxe winglet is too early in tech tree. It start in aviation node while should be somewhere higher in tech tree. More apropriate would be to have AV-R8 winglet early in game as first controlable fins instead.

Furthermore, I have installed KAX mod in the middle of playtrough and delta wiglet is moved to diffrernt tech tree node. I started to investigate things and found that AV-R8 winglet is initaly intended to be placed in aviation node. File UnKerbaledStart.cfg:

Spoiler
// atound line #104
//aviation
@PART[Mk1FuselageStructural|fairingSize1|SmallGearBay|CanardController|tailfin|sweptWing|R8winglet|airScoop|CircularIntake|JetEngine|nacelleBody]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:BEFORE[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
		@TechRequired = aviation
}

 

However, it is being moved to other nod with MM patch placed in UKS-Galen-AirplanePlus.cfg:

Spoiler
@PART[CanardController|tailfin|sweptWing|R8winglet]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]:AFTER[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
		@TechRequired = flight3
}

 

It might be apropriate to do that if AirplanePlus mod is installed, but looks odd without it. I think that is type made on those lines and should include APP inside NEEDS brackets, not only Ctt as requirement. Should look like this:

// around line #27
@PART[CanardController|tailfin|sweptWing|R8winglet]:NEEDS[AirplanePlus&CommunityTechTree]:AFTER[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
		@TechRequired = flight3
}

@theonegalen, I belive that is your config file for additonal mod support, but I don't know is it intended to be like that or typo was made while creating file.
I noticed few other MM patches in same file intended to be used with APP installed that have only Ctt in NEEDS command.

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3 hours ago, kcs123 said:

Furthermore, I have installed KAX mod in the middle of playtrough and delta wiglet is moved to diffrernt tech tree node

Found that this one is intended from this MM patch:

@PART[winglet3]:NEEDS[AirplanePlus|SXT|KAX&CommunityTechTree]:AFTER[zzzUnKerballedStart]
{
		@TechRequired = stability
}

EDIT:
Doing some more testing and thinking about it AV-R8 winglet is much more apropriate for 0.625 early rocket size. It should be earlier in either, "stability" node or "earlyAviation" node. Both cost the same and without much mods installed earlyAviation have much less parts, might be better to put it there.

EDIT2:

Nevermind, I was writting from top of my head. Stability node have less parts and rocket builder might benefit much more from that one. Delta deluxe winglets might remain in same node (from KAX patch) if someone is capable to build larger rockets earlier.

Edited by kcs123
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Sorry I've been busy with house projects.

  • - instead of swaping prices, set lower part number limit for VAB/SPH to 40
    • That's a good idea.  
  • - radiators in gizmos node - no use for them that early in the game, can be safely moved to early heat managment node
    • I'm not really basing availability on need
  • - At least LVT-30 engine (without gimbals) in tier 3 node General rocketry - there is few 1.25m fuel tanks unlocked,  but not much use of them because almost all of engines are much higher in tech tree.
    • The delayed availability of larger engines is intended. Fuel tanks availability is based on volume not radius. Multi-engine stages are encouraged and work great.
  • - B9PW should be in tier 4 Aviation node instead of Advanced aerodynamics node - people who use them would usualy  not need wings of other kind, but P9PW are too high in tech tree for them
  • - Basic rocketry node contains resource tanks from USI/MKS mod, those should be placed somewhere higher in tech tree,  with their ability to be used for various resources it seems to be too early for them to apear in career game
    • a tanks a tank, whatever it's used for. I think they should be available when a sumialr sized fuel tanks is.
  • - RA-2 antenna should be slightly earlier in tech tree - in Space Exploration node, to be able to establish better relay network  when it is time to explore Mun/Minimus
    • I'll look at it.
  • Probodobodyne QBE - add reaction wheels to it. With very low torque, though. Something like 0.1 or 0.05. IIRC, Probodobodyne OKTO have lowest value of 0.3 torque in stock game. Found it necessary because linear RCS ports are too powerful for small probes, making even kOS steering manager to jerk it a lot, wasting monopropelant and still not being able to point probe in desired direction. Linear RCS port is on right spot in tech tree, though and may be necessary in ascent of unstable rockets, can even be better and lighter solution than wing control surfaces. Because wings are only useful in lower atmosphere.
    • Not changing parts is one my design principles.  I use a mod that nerfs reaction wheels so using RCS on small probes is mandatory.  I reduce the power of RCS thrusters in the build menu to 25% or less and get good results. 
    •  

I won't have time to work on this for awhile but these are some great ideas for the next version. 

  

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4 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:
    • The delayed availability of larger engines is intended. Fuel tanks availability is based on volume not radius. Multi-engine stages are encouraged and work great.

  

Be aware that thrust plates only exist in the Making History DLC, not the stock game (which is annoying - they are an important base part for exactly this reason - multi-engine mounts are a basic rocketry idea dating back to the early days.)  Without thrust plates, most engines will refuse to surface attach to the bottom of a fuel tank so you can only mount one engine, in the center of the tank, on the attachment node.

The structural parts that fork multi-ways (2-way, 3-way, 4-way adapter) are the only other option I've found without DLC parts, and I don't think they're available at the start in the tech tree.

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